so i have a dumb question.. i have my engine torn down to the heads and case and was my cylinders (i think) are kinda rusty (the little fins on it)

if i wanted to get a new cylinder/piston kit yada yada... can i get a "big bore" 96mm kit?

I didn't know if going with the big kit would require any modifying of the heads or case or something.. or if it would "bolt up" just like the stock parts.

pardon the noobness

Need... more... info...

Motor size? Complete teardown? Cam swap?

But, yes, you can put a 96 on any setup and build either a 1911 (1.7/1.8 based) or 2056 (2.0 based). 1.7 heads will need some work to fit.

Anyone speak Texan?

Just givin' you a hard time.

No stupid questions. Nice to see someone working on something.

What's the HP increase seen moving to the 96 mm cylinders on a 1.8?

100 - 125, depending on exhaust and fuel induction.

Zach

"No stupid questions"? I beg to differ with you. A "stupid question" starts out as a normal question, but becomes stupid when the asker of the question decides he/she doesn't like the correct answer and shops it around until he/she gets the answer he/she wants. THAT'S a "stupid question".

The question asked here doesn't meet that definition. The Cap'n

And cam and compression and valve size and head massaging ....................... The Cap'n

So does this mean that nothing needs to be done to stock 1.8 and 2.0 heads when using 96mm pistons/cylinders? they'll bolt right up?

Yup.

haha my texan speak... threw an extra "was" in there.. got excited! lol
it's a stock 2.0 with no upgrades or changes like cam or anything.

but i saw the 96mm cylinders and thought, if theyre gonna get replaced, why not "upgrade" a little?+

how hard is it to install the stuff in the kit?: pistons, cylinders, rings, wrist pins, and circlips

any special tools required.. keep in mind im learning this stuff as i go so it takes me longer to do stuff but if it doesnt require
some special tools or knowledge, i can do it!

Can your current cylinders get cleaned up and bored out? Thats what I did with my 96s, and they turned out GREAT, were less expensive then the new ones, and had better quality many of the kits are reported to have.

For pistons I got some Keith Blacks from Jake.

Zach

So if I took my '75 L-Jet 1.8 with 56K miles and had the cylinders bored out to 96 mm, bought some 96mm pistons from Jake (or other reputable source) and continued to use my 73'/74' SSI HEs and Bursch exhaust, what kind of hp increase could I expect?

Seems like it may be a fairly cost effective way to gain some torque/power.

was thinking that but i don't know anything about taking stuff to a machine shop or where to go to get somethin like that done...

i figured a new set would be clean and already bored lol
i like new stuff... i know, i know...

so how hard is install?

im scared if i take my engine apart, it wont go back together lol

oh yea, would a complete gasket kit come with the gaskets needed as well?

i would guess around 10 HP ...

let's assume you're currently somewhere around 80 HP, a 10 HP increase is 12.5% more power!
Andy

so i can get the 96mm kit for $200 shipped? should i jump on it?

going with a buddy of mine tomorrow to a local 914 mechanic.. says i should go ahead and get the heads cleaned and bored (whats this cost?)

if i took my engine to the mechanic and told him to do the heads and to install the cylinder kit, what would that cost roughly?

also, i was asked if the valves would need to be changed (larger?)

sorry for all the questions, i just wanna do this right!

Higher CR would result in probably 20hp.
So you stand at 100hp
With a new cam and head work, you can squeeze an additional 20-30 hp out of it.
It will also run cooler with the new cam.

Rich

Do it.

What would need to be done to the heads and how much could I expect to spend for that?

Just changing the P/Cs is something I could accomplish over the course of 3-4 weeks. I may be able to get the cylinders bored for free so it would be a 10-20 hp gain for less than $300. That's $15-30 per hp.

A 30-50hp gain would be fantastic but it would likely be another winter project (and I'm not doing one of those next winter), likely cost at least $1500-2000, and may be beyond my capabilities. I could do the P/C this winter and then the cam and heads the following winter.

you get what you pay for. search for quality comments on the set of p&c

to clean heads should not cost too much. i think they just dip them so....50 $? (@$80/hr)

never heard of "boring" heads. i have heard of flycutting heads which cleans up the seating surface between the heads and the tops of the cylinders. if boring the heads means enlarging the openings in the heads where the cylinders fit, i don't think this is necessary for a 1.8 or a 2.0 head, it is necessary for a 1.7.

since the engine is out of the car, to do the heads and install the p&c set would take (really a wild guess): 6-8 hours (@$80/hr shop labor rate) $6-700. this is where you should do it yourself if you want to keep the costs down. it is not complicated or difficult to install p&c's. if you're going to buy a $200 set of p&c's, then you should install them yourself.

alot more work would be required to enlarge the valves (need to install larger seats). i'm not sure there will be a significant increase in hp for larger valves so that might not be very cost effective. depending on the condition of the valves, you may need to change the valves.

You will not get that kind of power increase from just jugs. You may get 2-4hp...maybe. Bumping up the CR on a stock l-jet will start to mess with the FI.

Cam, then exhaust, is your biggest bang for the buck.

To get 120-130hp out of a 1.8 we're talking dual carbs, heads, cam, jugs, exhaust, etc…

Yea 10 HP is really all you will get from a 1.8L getting bumped to 96mm pistons. if you change nothing else.

Your cylinders will serve you better than buying out of round Evil bay ones.

As stated above there is more to be done to a motor to get more than 10 extra HP.

I assembled a 1911cc motor and ran it in my car. It was OK but I certainly was not thrilled. 40 IDF's Tangerine and Mallory igition lighter flywheel. Never cracked the case sso I didn't know the cam was a torque bus cam. Not good for my ported 2.0L heads and Header.
Do not go half way you will not be happy, nor will you notice any difference.

Cam cam cam...it is the triple bybass part of the heart surgery.....everything else will follow that. Does that make sense? or do I look like an ass?

hmmm.....

i dont know anything about engines and i feel im pushin it just doin the cylinders... cam and all that would be nice, but im telling you, i dont think i could get it back together correctly and working.. my goal is to have it back together by this summer...

I'd recommend two resources. One is Tom Wilson's book. I've had this book on my shelf for the last ten years and it's always been an educational read.

The second source is Jake Raby's video.
I'm building an engine now, and I usually have my laptop in the garage with this video playing. It's extremely helpful to be able to play and pause the video while I work.

i bought that book tonight as a matter of fact!!!
i just may pick up that DVD as well. seems like a good investment

noticed on jakes site you cant just "buy" a performance cam... he the only source?

Enjoy the book, I really learned a lot from it, and the video let's you see the steps actually being done, it's like having a teacher in the garage with you. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's really helpful!

If you haven't done so already, go to Jake's website (aircooledtechnology.com) and register in the forums. Once you've done that, you can link up to a valvetrain Powerpoint document that Jake generated to explain his cam program. He developed the cam program to avoid people mixing and matching various components with his cams, only to have poor results.

You know I am sorry. I take for granted the COUNTLESS hours I have spent in my days (over 15 or so years) working on cars. I will tell you that all of the above is great info and that the T-4 engine is really easy to get apart and back together! YOU CAN DO IT!! I am not sure of your induction choice but I have a cam (SCAT C-25 with solid lifters) which is a great MILD carb cam with 2000 miles on it I'll let you have for $50 AKA CHEAP!! if you decide to go that route. Either way man dont be afraid of it.

Jake also recommended doing the cam as well (not just bigger P/C's). So I keep coming back to just beating on the little 1.8 for a couple of years and then perhaps a 2056 kit from Mr. Raby. At the rate Jake is going, with my SSI HE's that's gotta be good for 250hp by 2010.

Hey, I have seen Josh's cam. It is in great shape, almost 0 ware. $50 with lifters is a steal. Really.

Seriously, jump on it.

Also, get Jake's video. Watch the video 2 or 3 times. Understand the process. About the only serious error you can make when the engine is split is to crush a bearing on re-assembly. Go slow, force NOTHING, and its not an issue.

You will also need one of his adjustable pushrods, and some uncut pushrods. Go ahead and order them now.

Really and truly. Once you get your parts, from case opening to case reseal is a two weekend job if you work at a snails pace (like me).

Then setting your new compression ratio will take an evening. You will need cylinder holder-downers (I made the kind John Muir suggested in his book "How to Keep your Volkswagen Alive"- they are angle iron and pvc pipe spacers. Cheap/Easy.)

Setting the pushrods took me 6 hours (a day). 3 hours to get the first one done, and three hours to get the other 7 done. You will need a micrometer from Harbor Freight to do this. I got the one that attaches to a pair of vice grips, and it worked like a charm and cost me $20.

And there you go.

If you get Josh's cam and lifters, you will be able to do your upgrade for well under $1000. Obviously there would be a TON more you could do, and it all helps.

I would still suggest using the KB pistons and punching out your current cylinders, but the Chinese P&C set may work out just fine for you. At $200, the Chinese set is cheaper - by about $150.



Zach

i dont believe it is the cheap $200 set, i just happen to win an auction and got lucky

"setting compression ratio" ??
"setting the pushrods" ??
"cylinder holder-downers" ??

i cant reuse my old pushrods and tubes?

ill pm ya on the cam and lifters.. ill take it from ya as recommended

EDIT: im at work.. bored.. scouring engine build threads... i come across stuff like this:
"After it was installed in the car I tried to seat the rings and after a while it became apparent that something was wrong so, out came the engine and we tore it down. The autopsy showed it was very rich, the piston skirts were scuffed and the bores were worn, some of the cam lobes were worn, the main journals on the crank needed polishing, and the inside thrust surface of the rear main was worn."

stuff like that scares me lol... if someone wanted to come over and guide me through teardown and rebuild or point and laugh when i do something stupid, that would be amazing...
to me its "open it, replace stuff, put it back together".. but theres so many little things you have to look out for and measure and the jargon that goes with it

Cool!


Yes. You will need to do this when you put on the new P&C set. If you don't, each cylinder will probably be out of tune with each other, and (worst case) your pistons may collide with your valves (and engine go boom). Good news, its cheap and easy to do. Get John Muirs book if you don't already have it.


You will be able to use your old push rod tubes, but probably not the old push rods. Changing the cylinders will; probably change your push rod geometry. Adding a cam will definately require new push rods. On Jakes site, has has a very specific walk through on how to do it. Read it several times. It will take a few hours to do the first rod, maybe a few more to do the second, and then the next 6 will just about make themselves.


You set the CR with the heads off. This means that there is nothing to keep the cylinders seated against the case. How to keep your VW alive has pictures.

Zach

If the stroke doesn't change and deck is similair the oldpush rods will probably be fine. Not optimum but then again he is looking at 300 dollar rebuild not 3500.00


By the way why are you posting the same topic on the Club aka the original 914 mega site.

As the Capt alluded to concerning stupid questions
Fortunately for you we are the same people with the same advice.

Hey Zach? You goina be ready for the 26th?

Regarding:

"After it was installed in the car I tried to seat the rings and after a while it became apparent that something was wrong so, out came the engine and we tore it down. The autopsy showed it was very rich, the piston skirts were scuffed and the bores were worn, some of the cam lobes were worn, the main journals on the crank needed polishing, and the inside thrust surface of the rear main was worn."

If you read further into it, I believe the main/only problem that caused the above results were not assembly errors. Dave had been using megasquirt for fueling and running over rich had caused problems seating the rings, thinning the oil with fuel, blablabla...I think your using IDF's so with clubbers recommendations that is a non issue(the fueling thing).

I built my 1971 twice in two weeks and it came out great, consisted of 1.7 case, jake cam, euro 94's, and built heads. Came out great using 40 IDF's and jets from my head guy.
Before anyone asks, as i know i would....Reason behind two builds in two weeks is my first (local) head guy was "unhelpful" so i bolted it together, Broke it in, dropped a seat immediatley old 1.7 cores and unsynced carbs killed it. Re-pulled the motor, stripped it, took the old heads to Jerry at NW ConRod(great guy in PNW) bought two core 1.8's and set it w 36/42 valves from jake, reassemble and life is great. First biggish motor built by me and i also recommend the books from above
"How to rebuild your aircooled VW" I believe is the one I used.

HAHAHAHA!

No.

My house mods, and way higher then usual required family visits cut into my car time.

Engine will probably be done. Supension will be on. But the car will not be drive-able.

Zach

Ok, I want to ask the million dollar question. Why were you going to just replace pistons and rings?

Most likely, heads are cracked and need to be rebuilt. If you are going with a hotter cam you ideally need to upgrade the valve train on the heads to handle it. You also need to look at the bottom end. Check case alignment, polish crank, rods, new bearings, etc. It's a never ending scenario until you arrive at a complete rebuild.

And after you've built a higher performance engine, you need to look at a higher performance fuel delivery system or at minimum getting D-Jet tweaked. This is how the $300 project turns into a $3000 project. :-)

I was gonna get the cylinders redone because they are rusty/look "dead"... wanted to spruce it up a little.. i saw a kit for around 300 for the stock size and was only a little more for the 96mm.. so i figured why not... im not tryin to build a high performance engine here.. i just wanted it to be reliable and wanted to go through it and replace seals and gaskets...

i may nix the cam idea and splliting the case and stop at replacing the cylinders/pistons... i will take the heads to someone to have them cleaned and checked for cracks... assuming they ARE cracked, isnt it better to find out now instead of later once i put it all back together?

here's some pics of where im at

Click to view attachment

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Was this a good running engine that came out of your car? Why did it come out?

Surface rust on the cylinders is definitely not a reason for replacement. They are made of iron and easily rust on the outside. Not a problem!

AFAIK, the $200 chinese P&Cs are nowhere near the quality of the original parts.

It's pretty rare that a 2L head isn't cracked. If the engine isn't leaking, runs decent, and has good compression, I wouldn't do any more than check the torque on the heads.

If you take it apart, the $200 P&Cs will be the tip of the $3000 rebuild iceberg (if you decide to do it right). Because, once you have $1000 into rebuilding the heads, it will be a shame not to upgrade the valve train, the cam, lifters, seals, new bearings, balancing, and all the machining services required, etc, etc.

And, I must say a resulting 2056 with a strong, solid 120hp is an amazing engine in a 914. I got a ride in McMarks and it felt twice as fast as my stock 2L. It's a worthy engine to build. Just know what you are getting into ahead of time.

thanks anthony.. the more i stand there and look at it, the more i want to just leave it as is. i have driven the car ONCE!!!! since i got it almost a year ago.. and it did run! good? i dont know, didnt have much experience at the time to know good from bad...

i might consider just putting it all back together with good gaskets and everything.. id still like to change the pushrod tube seals while i have it out of the car...

the reason i dropped the engine was due to severe hell hole trouble which is in the process of being fixed as well. i hear ya on the "getting expensive real quick".. its nowhere near my budget to spend that kind of money right now.. (poor college kid )

ive got the tin sent out for powdercoating and was thinkin of getting the valve covers pd'ed as well... and after reading all this.. i might just start reassembly with a good gasket kit and new hoses/lines

she didnt leak oil or have any trouble with idle or anything the few times i started her and the one time i drove it, it ran fine to me (sloppy shifting but thats a different story )

if you were me (and i value ya'lls opinion more than you know), what would ya'll do?

i know ill be spending some bucks on welding work for floorpans and hell hole so maybe just get the engine spruced up with "daily maintenance" type stuff for now and get her back on the road?

Based on that I would recommend not taking the heads off and just putting the engine back in the car after welding. New rubber hoses, fuel lines, and stuff is great. You might also want to do new motor mounts. The ones near the engine are cheap and much easier to get to when the engine is out. The rear mounts on the tranny can be replaced with 911 "sport" mounts. Aftermarket ones usually costs $35/each whereas 914 mounts cost like $70/each.

one step ahead of ya.. got all new mounts installed already!
thanks anthony!

New o-rings on the push rod tubes is easy at this point definately worth doing.
Rear main seal and front crank seal. new valve cover gaskets and exhaust port copper seals. I would carefully check head torque and adjust valves
Button it up and put it back in.
Shift bushing at the fire wall before engine install.