Here is the deal.
I have several motors that I could build.
I am working on quite a few 356's now.

I would like to figure out if I could make a few bucks by building, testing, (leak down and compression, no dyno) and selling these motors complete.

If the value is there, I will do it.
Otherwise I will sell each item on ebay.

I am testing the waters here.
Rich

I really don't know how to vote on this one. I would (if I had the money) gladly pay 6-7K for a Raby engine. A Motormeister engine I wouldn't pay 1K for.

So I think you need to determine who your target market is going to be. Are you looking at building engines for racing, daily driver, AX? Another question is if you are going to try to compete with the pricing of Raby's kit products? It all comes down to how you have modeled your business plan. If you stray from the business plan, you are risking financial disaster.

Another thing to consider is that people whom vote on a survey are not necessarily the people who are going to become your customers, so be careful of the value you place on the results.

That said, I believe there is a large market for a daily driver engine that is easy to drive, gets good gas mileage, and is very, very reliable.

You've been participating on this board much longer than I have, and you expereince is much, much greater than mine. So there's a good chance I have only repeated what you already know. Anyway, that's my $.02.

value vs what the market will bear. I have seen "rebuilt" engines of unknown origin sit for months at a grand while a good 2.0 from a known source with references will sell quickly at under 3k but stutter around the 4k mark

Not to be a smart-ass, but what is your definition of rebuilt Rich?

Perfectly valid question.

the value and cost of the parts and next to nothing for your time. i think you would have install the engine in a car, break it in, ensure 0 leaks and spot on comp and leakdown #s. i don't see how you can possibly make any dough. keep the best spare you have for the stash and sell the rest as cores for wetmwb. right mike?

Isn't "whatever" technically one word? Edit: Did some "research". Some of these are pretty funny. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whatever

I don't know what the typical CSOB 914 owner is willing to pay for a rebuilt 914 engine. I believe in "you get what you pay for". You want cheap, and don't want to spend the money, you get cheap crap. But that's just me. And I'm not a poor starving student trying to keep my daily driver alive and still have enough for a double cheeseburger from the dollar menu.

But I'll wait to vote until I have a better idea of what is going into the rebuilt motor you plan to build. At least some general requirements. Good idea for a poll thread BTW. I'll definitely be watching this one.

so a stock 2.0. not a 2056...let's start with a set of GOOD core oem 2.0 heads. wE(better?)tmwb for unfixed heads, the cost for parts and to machine them, so that's what?...$800 to 1200 worth of retail value? not to include any shipping, personable time/labor and fuel. things escalate. i don't know rich, build one and consider it to be of a quality for a personal car, and give it a try.

Rebuilt stock motor.
New main bearings
New rod bearings
Rebuilt rods (at a machine shop)
Block cleaned, checked for square ...(studs removed, measured on level granite slab to ensure cylinder seats are square to crank and the same distance)
Galley plugs drilled, tapped, inserts.
Heads are from a long hunt to find low mile original heads with no cracks. Cleaned and checked.
Pistons stock, measured, within spec
New rings
Cylinders stock and re-honed
Oil pump blueprinted
Stock camshaft with matching lifters.

I am not trying to get into the business of competing with Jake for hotrod motors. He has covered that market.

You can upgrade to the following things, and we all know what they cost.
Re-done heads
new pistons and cylinders.
camshaft and lifters.

I was initially going to build these for myself. The parts that are going into these motors are from a big stash, but they are the best parts.
Pistons and cylinders are round and within spec from the factory manual.

As stated in my initial post, It will be run on a test stand.
It will be tested for compression and leak down...I always do that before I put a motor in...

When you rebuild a motor, it really does not matter which motor 1.7,1.8,or 2.0. To do it right and to balance and blueprint the motor takes exactly the same amount of time.

Just looking here to see if there is interest in a well built stock motor that will be good for another 100k. If not, no skin off my back...I will sell each part on ebay..
I just completed a 356 motor (actually a 912 motor) this past week and I am firing it up on the test stand today.

I dont see myself getting a dyno soon. I may get a chassis dyno to tune cars, but I am not looking to build hotrod motors like Jake. He needs a dyno to test his ideas. I am relying on the factory for the designs. I just assemble them by hand, one at a time with alot more care than the mass production allowed for.

I have setups for two complete motors.
I will also be selling off the parts for a big motor..That will be in the classifieds soon, once I get all the pictures.
The rest of the stash will be sold slowly.

Rich

going that route i think you could do better $$ wise with a refurbished short block with the machine work done, 0 decking included. to sell a rebuilt engine the heads would be the sticking point. at a minimum, guides, seats?, keepers and what not. a used cam and lifters? regrind the cam? build one engine and swing for the fence.

k

My vote needs to be changed

I agree with Kevin

By using low mileage "good" heads your really only saleing a rebuilt short block

there is no way I would assume "low" mileage heads where not abused and that a seat might drop well before your 100000 mile life span

and why would you go back with a stock cam, reground or not, when a few mild after market cams work better than factory with stock injection, let alone those who run carbs

what about the crank? check micro polish? fly wheel? reground ? whole assembly with clutch balanced?

oil cooler ? new? flushed?



but with that being said

my vote should be lowered to 1-2K as you describe

My humble opinion follows:

As described with no upgrades, I would not spend more than the lowest poll option of 1-2k. As described and w/2.0 heads, cylinders, crank, rods. etc... I would pay than the equivalent motor built with 1.7 or 1.8 parts because the parts are worth more. Adding options would also obviously raise that price.

Basically it boils down to this. The used and new parts have a certain value. You obviously don't want to give them away. Your time and expertise are worth a certain value as well. I can figure out what the parts are worth and I personally would be happy to pay for the expertise of someone like yourself to correctly assemble a 914 engine. That's basically the unknown here.

What's your time and expertise worth Rich?

It's not really possible to watch F1 and write this.

don't take this wrong. i bought a 'rebuilt' $1.9k engine. all the 'right' stuff. learned my lesson.

Apples and oranges without a description and details of the motor, who built it, work performed, etc...

As I said, I am testing the waters.
The market for these cars is still at such a low value that people do not need this service. Its interesting. This market contains several segments.
One segment cannot afford the new motor with all the new parts, but this segment also has no concept of the value of a properly built motor.

The next segment of the market can afford the new parts, but also may have the ability to build a motor with competence.

As the market for 914 matures in the next ten to fifteen years and used parts become more scarce, things will change.
As we all know a mass production motor from one of the larger firms is just that..mass produced. A single person building a motor for a particluar client has alot more care and reputation involved that goes with the motor. If you end up having a need for a rebuilt motor, get to know the builder...a small shop will always out perform a large shop just based upon people helping people.

I have found my answer. The market defined itself with the responses.

I do want to state for the people who voted 1-4k....do the math.
It cannot be done for that price. The parts alone, new parts and limited machine work is 1-2k.
The assembly time for a properly built motor, one that is balanced, measured, blueprinted, and assembled two or three times to get it perfect ranges from 30-50 hours.

So do the math guys.
The 356 crowd will provide us with the complete core motor and spend 7-10k to get it rebuilt....and the head work is cheaper than a type 4 head...This is mostly labor...and it does take longer than a type 4, but not a whole lot longer. The main difference is sourcing the parts and machine work.

I do see the 914 market following the 356 market. We are experiencing the same market conditions that the 356 market had in the 80's.

Rich

While I don't disagree with you, the way I see the math is that a 356 guy has a car that he paid $25K for, so an engine rebuild at $8K is reasonable. Currently, a 914 guy might have paid 10% as much as the 356 guy, and not have the kind of income to be able to afford an $8K rebuild.

Putting an $8K engine into a $2.5K car doesn't make economic sense. Some people look at it that way.

I'm sure that there is a market for an $8K 2.0 Type IV. As the value of the cars increases, that market will get larger. The cars will find their way into the hands of owners that can afford them.

Right now, I'd bet that there is more of a market for a $2K 2.0 Type IV that is simply a collection of good used parts with new rings and bearings.

Personally, I'm looking at spending the money on parts and machine work, and throwing in my own labor for free

My comments were based on about the same concerns as you have stated. The business model just doesn't support the current market pricing.

HOWEVER, you have been talking for the most part to "gear heads". Many of the people on this board substantially turn their own wrenches. The reason I was drawn to this board is to get assistance with exactly that.

It appears that your proposal is not focused on this audience. The people you may want to focus on are the hobbyests that buy a 914 to drive, and really have little interest in working on it. For them, your services are critical. But there's a gotcha with that group too. These folks are going to find a local mechanic to perform their scheduled maintenance and break/fix work. In many cases, these mechanics, qualified or not, are going to want to perform engine work as part of their service offerings. So what incentive do you have to provide your services to a mix of these groups?

I am putting away money each month so that I can buy a Raby kit next fall. I don't want a race engine. I just want a well designed engine that works efficiently (cool), get's good gas milage, and continues to work with my stock FI. Jake claims (as do many of the people whom have bought his parts kits/engines) that his engines will do all that. Am I buying an over-engineered kit? Probably. But at this point I feel I don't have much of a choice as there has been no one posting that has an alternative product in a kit form that I believe I have the ability to install. Why the kit form? Because I am a CSOB.

With the prices on out 914's beginning to rise, maybe now is the time to begin limited production/availability of your engine work/product. You will probably need to build-in an incentive for shops to do business with you, and plan only on a limited roll-out for now. Additionally, you may want to place a 1-inch ad in "Panorama" (remember, you're looking for the 914 owner that doesn't have a bunch of tech experience).

Anyway, that's my $.02.

I am not going into business building engines.
I have two complete setups, that is all.
I can and will decide the best way to make money on these motors...if I build them and put them into a tub, that will be one.
The other...I can sell each set of parts one at a time on Ebay.

Again, I am not going to build motors for 914's as a business, the market is not mature enough yet...though it may be some day before I die...but I am not holding my breath.

Rich

The last engine I did for someone went for 2500.00
new P&C's rebuilt heads, machine work on crank flywheel rods, new bearings new cam and lifters clutch.
Did I mention it was the LAST engine I built for someone?
Spent most of my time cleaning grubby greasy parts.

Rich,
My guess is, that right now, if you value your time at anything approaching minimum wage, you'd be better off selling the parts.

Or, rebuild them now and wait for the market.