will be continuing the center of the cross as a racing stripe the full length of the car including on the wing

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Sehr gut!

coolio!

This has got to be the meanest looking 914 I have ever seen! Nice job!

well... it's no anklebiter! but thanks to all for the positive compliments guys!

I was a bit late for work today just standing in the garage with the door open checking out the colors - I'm like a fricken kid sometimes

not a look *i* would go for, for more or less obvious reasons ...
Andy

I've got to say that your car is on of my favorites now. I love it

You did an excellent job with it, but I have to agree with Andy's comment based on what it represented.

Looks like one of those super fast prototype cars from a videogame...


The v-8 in it can definitely back-up the body style!

gotta be careful guys - cuz I am about the representation as well. The Black Cross is referred to as a symbol for Germany, not the Nazis specifically, which is where I think you guys are going with this. There will be NO swastikas on this car for certain.

My friend's dad was captured by the Gestapo after being shot down in occupied France (he was bomber crew on a bomber run) and spending a few weeks trying to get out thru the French Underground, stood in front of a firing line (!) before being spared at the last minute (not so much the folks standing next to him), interrogated (aka beaten and tortured), then spent a year in a concentration camp before liberation, so I am very, very careful about how I treat this stuff.

In fact, I specifically called him about the idea and he thought it would be a "cute little car" (this guy had a boat with an engine out of a helicopter in it, so yeah, "cute" and "little" car hahaha) and he thought the Balkenkreuze was a great idea and talked for about an hour straight about how great the FW190s were and various ones he saw and help destroy of course At 85yrs old he is still one of the coolest "old guys" I know!

He agreed if I put a swastika on spill plates it would be a different story, but felt a German car with a German national symbol used long before the Nazis would be fine, and especially thought it was cool that a fast, nimble car with a huge wing sorta fits right in with the large wing versions of the FW190s.

I feared folks would take this the wrong way out of not understanding exactly what certain symbols represent, but even the fact the FW190 is a German war plane, I don't specifically consider it a Nazi thing if you catch my drift, but just an awesome feat of German engineering.

The US still defeated the Nazi Germans and it is my intention to make sure the Chevy defeats all the -4s and -6s I can find Wolf in sheep's clothing

How's this:

The 914-4 of German military aircraft (WWI)
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The 914-8 of German military aircraft
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To dislike the Balkenkreuz cuz the Nazis used it too is like saying Andy must be bad because Nazis were German more or less.

Hopefully that puts everyone questioning my intentions at ease.

if i may ...


The "Balkenkreuz" (or "Schwarzes Kreuz" meaning "Black Cross") has *not* been used by germany since WWII. It is *not* a contemporary "Symbol for Germany".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkenkreuz

The only thing still used today that comes close is the "Tatzenkreuz", which has similar characteristics. However, it is usually only used on Medals.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatzenkreuz

and your reasoning that the Balkenkreuz was used long before the nazi's came along is not very solid. the same argument can be made about the "Hakenkreuz" (Swastika)!
In fact, the Swastika symbol is thousands of years old ...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika


for me, it's not about what the Balkenkreuz used to be but about what people associate it with today, which is usually nazi germany.

thus, my initial response. i'm not accusing you of anything and i do thing it looks rather cool on your car.
but personally, i associate it with the nazis (and i bet a lot of other people do as well) and i would not use it on my car.

just my humble opinion, of course!
Andy

And I thought you were talking about the raised louvers!!

those i like!
Andy

it's all good Andy (and I can't read those links hahaha). I understand where you are coming from... and you're right, it isn't contemporary. The swastika was definitely around long before the Nazis, but that definitely seems to be associated with that, but agree many people associate the BK with Nazism specifically also.

In fact, as stated, it was my fear that it would be taken incorrectly by people, especially my friend's dad and why I made the phone call. Since he thought it was a great idea, I guess I assumed everyone would I hope that most people take it as intended, which is to be different than other paint schemes and not specifically associated with Nazis.

At first I thought it was a crazy idea, but now I like it.

English version of the swastika article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

First off, it looks bad ass.

Secondly, people are ignorant, so I hope you don't have an issue with vandalism.

I've never assosiated it with being "Nazi" but always with a fighter plane. I know it was used on the Nazi planes but I have grown up watching the history channels fighter plane documentaries. I love the stories of the Barron.

I am just concerned that the car still looks so slow.

Thought about vandalism as well! but then figured since the car never sits out where I am not in view of it (tho' maybe at the race track it would be sitting out but I would be in the stands) so it would take some balls to try something with the car either at the track or with me watching, so I think (or should I say *hope*) I am cool.

I thought about hitting the ol' head with the trimmer in the heat of the summer but maybe don't quite wanna go for that buzzed off look quite yet My buddy I race with has really short buzzed blond hair and blue eyes - good thing he is under 6ft tall (actually somewhat short for a guy at 5'6" hahahahaha). I was thinking of doing the same thing since my hair seems to be on its way out anyway Does Dr. Martin make racing shoes?? hahahahahahaha. I gotta have a pair of Docs somewhere from my younger, punker/metal head days.

I'm just having fun... bored at work laying low as I am blowing out early to tailgate before the Rush concert tonight at Red Rocks and don't wanna get one of those late afternoon "hey, can you support this meeting" things

hahahha, just did a preview and saw Travis' post... I get that all the time! Car is, let's face it, the very definition of "sleeper"

I just want to go on the record as being totally offended by this paint!





That you could get such a shine using rattle-can paint is totally offensive...

Man your car looks freakin sick! For what it's worth (less than 2 cents probably) I wouldn't have made the connection with the German symbolism had it not been called-out in the thread's title. Not to say that nobody would...

I have an iron cross peep mirror on my '37 Plymouth street rod. I had a couple people ask if i was a Nazi (or something stupid like that) and I just stated that the iron cross was created around 1813 as a symbol of heroism, bravery, and leadership and it originaly had nothing to do with nazis. Germany had a lot of great history and tradition before some ass clown named Hitler came along and well you know...
You have a traditional german symbol on a german car, looks good to me.
Do your homework and if someone brings up something stupid just give them an accurate history lesson on the symbols meaning before 1939.

Don't quite understand all the sensitivity. Seems those directly involved in the WWII European theatre are acutely more knowlegeable and understanding of this symbol, like your Father's friend. Also like your Father's friend, my Father was a German WWII POW but for five years. He too would have seen no ofense with your car.

I suppose the risk of vandalism is from those un-informed or brainwashed political correctness types.

I personally really like the look of your car. The hood louvers look great now that they are painted. Mine has a hood diffuser as well; with the styling help of a Pasadena Art Center student, hopefully it will look as good as yours.

Andys

well, *this* sensitivity german that is obviously lacking knowledge and understanding had a grandfather who was in the SS, fought at Stalingrad, got captured and spent 5 years in a sibirian gulag, somehow managed to survive, came back to germany and got arrested by the americans and thrown into prison again.


but what do i know ...
Andy

What about the "Iron Cross". The German military still uses it today

http://www.worldwar2aces.com/iron-cross.htm

like i said in my previous post, the "Iron Cross" is a deviation of the Tatzenkreuz, which is still used today, but only for medals ...



i'm not sure i want this to turn into a "Andy needs to explain all and any german symbols ever used by the nazis" thread ...

i think i made my point, i'm gonna stop posting in this thread now.

Andy

Guys. I think the main issue is that the Germans have different feeling about these symbols than we do. When I was inn Germany many of the people told me that they hated EVERYTHING to do with WWII. They were greatful for what the Americans did but they don't think many of the Americans understand what they went through during that time. So I see why Andy doesn't like these things especially if he has family that was highly involved.

For me I really don't dislike any of these symbols as they are just that. I do not like what some mean and I don't like some of the groups that use them...KKK. That being said, many groups will try to turn things that are not bad into something that is. They do the reverse as well. Look what the cross has become. They crucified so many people on them that they ran out of wood during those days. The cross was a terrible thing. Now many Christians tote the cross as jewled earings and necklaces. I know and understand the reason for it, but I am just using it as an example.

The symbol on this car.... to me is very cool as it reminds me of the Black Baron. He was an amazing fighter pilot who just happened to be on the wrong team. Yes, I know that he had an iron cross on his plane but I said it reminds me of it.

alright, one more time, just because you can't seem to give this a rest ...

here's what i said:

The Tatzenkreuz is still used today, but only (or better, mainly) for medals. the iron cross is a deviation of the Tatzenkreuz.

still confused? what was your point anyways?
Andy

Andy, my point was only to show that the "iron cross" was still being used and I posted pictures of examples. I posted the pictures at the same time you replied and didn't see your reply before I posted the pics.

I did not mean anything else by it.

I can help... I think. The Bundeswehr uses the Iron Cross as the German national marking. The Iron Cross (Eisernes Kreuz) is a derivative of the Tatzenkreuz.

The German national insignia was the Tatzenkreuz until 1918, when it was replaced by the Balkenkreuz, a form of Greek cross.

The Balkenkreuz was replaced by the modern Eisernes Kreuz after WWII when the Bundeswehr was formed.

All of these crosses are simply national markings, with no specific political affiliation. I think that the issue, for those who do have an issue, is that the Balkenkreuz was the German national symbol during the reign of the Third Reich.

The Hakenkreuz (Swastika) was adopted by the Nazi party as their official symbol. The majority of the Luftwaffe were not members of the Nazi party, and I think that the same goes for the Heer. The Waffen-SS was the elite force of the Nazi party.

After WWII, the display of the Swastika was banned in Europe. As a result of that, even the Finns were forced to abandon their Hakaristi national symbol, which was in no way related to the Swastika other than by appearance.

The "Maltese Cross" never had anything to do with Germany.

Andy, help me out if I got anything wrong...

Andy,

You're certainly entitled to your sensitivities, whether I understand or not; I'm good with that. I did however point to those directly involved. I grew up with my Father's circle of friends of which most spent time in captivity. From that I saw a certain perspective, hence my comment.

My Mother's sister and her Mother were both sent off to Siberia for merely being "intellectuals." My Mother spent about 6 months in German captivity. I've had the opportunity to hear many stories of human suffering and survival durring WWII, most of which were from those who lived them.

Your Grandfather was indeed fortunate to live through Russian captivity; many German soldiers did not.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Andys

Dark days of our history for all, it's good that people haven't forgot, and if the price we pay is for some to be more sensitive to the historical significence of symbols thats alright be me. maybe this while being some what contraversal is positive in that it will continue to remind and inform those that have fogotten or are ingorant of this past era.

many nations commited some offenses against humanity during WWII, and many are happening today. some day.......

wow, go to a Rush concert for the night and return to Hell fire hahahaha.

Andy - wow. I have no reason to have seen it your way (as you have a totally different history with this than I do) - I *think* you understand my being naive about how Germans view this stuff. Makes sense, like all stereotypes, Germans spent years living down the Nazi thing and so by design you have to destroy and discount any and all things associated with that stereotype to dig your way back out, so I am sure that as Phoenix stated, Germans are probably very touchy about any association to WWII and I apologize.

It's funny, I wanted to pick a "cool German theme" based on fast, nimble, "awesome for their era" aircraft, so I picked the FW190 based on another person's recommendation as it sorta fit the concept of my car

1. suffered from weight creep with modifications (I am up to almost 2600lbs now)
2. had an engine swap early on for more power
3. fast and nimble

I specifically don't use swatstikas for what is obvious to us all. I don't use the Iron Cross cuz it tends to be associated with stupid red-neck bikers and associated with skinheads and KKK types tho' I have no issue with it and think it looks cool as well. So I found the black cross, thought it would look awesome, figured by being associated with Germany prior to the Nazis and so forth I was on "good ground". I didn't realize I was treading mined land. Sorry dude, meant no offense to you. Thought I was cool after talking to Chat especially (the Vet).

Story of my life - just when I think I have it right and took all the right precautions I stick my dick in the mashed 'taters and the party is over. That said, I'm gonna stick with the theme cuz it looks cool, I know what it means to me and Chat was cool with it.

proof of life story - swear on my life this is true - I was probably in 3rd grade IIRC and I saw something on TV and they showed swastikas. I don't remember the show or what they talked about, but I thought it looked really cool. So I went to school and drew a swastika on my notebook! Needless to say, immediate parent/teacher conference. I also saw a pit bull in an encyclopedia doing a report on dogs that same year and begged my mom for one cuz I thought they looked cool. I somehow gravitate towards things with the worst of reputations I swear I am a good person at heart

Additionally, I see this as I am sure you have dealt with being a punker Andy. I am sure at some point someone saw you with a mohawk and Docs and thought you were a POS or skinhead, red-neck wannabe. So over the years I have learned I am gonna offend someone sooner or later, and as a whole as long as I know in my heart I meant nothing by it and I am not a POS or wannabe KKK a-hole, then so be it. Nothing wrong with a little Rollins-era Black Flag, Minor Threat/Fugazi and Misfits in the CD changer.

on a proof-read I saw messix's comment - I agree that we should never forget the prices paid for our freedom - freedom to paint a symbol on a car we want for instance. That is why I called Chat - to verify out of respect for the price he paid to afford me the freedom to paint my car to make sure he was cool with it. I was telling guys here at work the other day about his story and almost started crying - grown man almost in tears - cuz it is absolutely amazing if you really sit down and think about what some of our Veterans paid for us to have this forum, talk how we wanna talk, etc. Jesus, almost in tears now... such an amazing story Chat has. He was interviewed on History channel in fact a few years ago now.

I think some of the issue is that the Balkenkreuz was the version of the Iron Cross used by the Wehrmacht (the name of the unified armed forces of Germany from 1935 to 1945). I guess mostly the military of Nazi Germany. See here for English... http://static.wikipedia.org/new/wikipedia/.../Wehrmacht.html . I could see where this subject could be sensitive for some.

Your car looks good, your intentions are good, your use of this symbol is not nazi related at all, people will always view things in different ways and that is just fine. If people have a problem just tell them the paint is inspired by vintage aircraft and not anything nazi related. Keep up the good work, post pictures when you are done!
Dana.

I fully respect Andy's comments 100%. Andy has a personal link to this dark past, and his sensibilities should be considered. As should the sensibilities of the elders that were contacted and the participants to this thread.

The issues around this insignia are not logical, they are emotional. As such, you must be willing to be able to explain to those that may be initially offended.

For example, the Swastika has been in use for over 3,000 years. It was used by many cultures throughout the past to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. Only during NAZI Gemany years did the Swastika become the insignia of evil. You could use the Swastika as a hood insignia, but you would be forced to continually provide an explanation to a society that is ignorant of the symbol's past.

You will encounter much of the same with the insignia you are putting on your hood. While it is in current use with the German armed forces, many people will not know this and misunderstand your intentions. Some will embrace this misunderstanding and welcome you into a brotherhood of the ignorant (i.e. skinheads). Some will be offended by this insignia and shun you. Either way, this insignia will require from you a great deal of empathy and explanation.

From the International Herald Tribune (International Version of the New York Times:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/19/europe/cross.php

"The crimes of National Socialism took place under the swastika and not under the Iron Cross," said Siegfried Storbeck, a retired lieutenant general living in Hamburg. In a telephone interview, Storbeck said that Germany would always have to carry the burden of the crimes committed during the Nazi era, but asked for "understanding for what came before National Socialism."

What frustrates Storbeck and other supporters of the Iron Cross is that they see it as having emerged from an era about which they say Germans could be proud and should learn more.

"This was part and parcel of the famous Prussian enlightened reform era, which included, a year earlier in 1812, Jewish emancipation, legal rights for Jewish citizens," said Michael Wolffsohn, a professor of modern history at the University of the Bundeswehr in Munich.

Oddly, while it is considered a political impossibility as a medal, the Iron Cross remains the symbol of the German Army, emblazoned on everything from military vehicles to the defense ministry Web site.

Eric Read

it's allways the many that pay for the actions of so few.

I knew you were trouble the first time I laid eyes on ya!

I think it looks great. But I can see where it might cause you an issue somewhere down the road. 'Nuff said.

Did you just scuff that top black layer or is that actually some color green?

you know, you're gonna have to distance yourself from me now... guilty by association

I scuffed the black and the orange hood to rough it up, then laid down a few coats of Krylon ultra-flat camo olive green. So, yeah, you are seeing a green coat there.

I had two young neighbor girls out riding their bikes see me in the garage and stopped on the sidewalk and one (the more brazen one - when there are two there is the quiet one like me and the brazen one like my brother ) asked me "is that a race car?"

Yes it is.

Are you spray painting it?

Yes I am.

Can we see it...

So there went about a half hour hahahaha. They wanted to sit in it and the one asked some pretty solid race car questions! I think Dad is a NASCAR fan cuz she asked if I crawled thru the window or opened the door, if I had a net, so forth. Good times the quiet one in the drivers seat wanted the wheel attached and asked which pedal was the one that makes it go... so she definitely has the right idea!

I wondered later if their parents were one of the neighbors that called the cops about the car noise a couple weeks ago maybe I got some future converts

The quiet ones are the ones to worry about

Just remember.... Under 18 will get you 20.

You know what I'm talking about...

doooooooooooooood... Why's it always got to go there

I know, but these girls are like 10-ish I would guess, so not quite there yet...

DUH ! you gotta ask?

i think "world" has the greater population of dirty old men [or dirty old men in training] than in general society.

kept painting (got the roof done, just need to stripe the rear lid and the wing - hopefully tomorrow) and took some time to start buffing the front end.

I kept working on it after these shots, but here was round 1 of buffing.





the camera doesn't capture the sheen very well, but it looks pretty cool in person. My new neighbor Otto (moved in a couple weeks ago) came over and couldn't believe I did that with rattle cans (but trust me, it ain't no fancy paint job - you can tell) and thought it was cool. I don't think he knew it was a Porsche so the German reference with the flag threw him for a minute