I have a issue with the driveablility of my car.

First the info

1.\ 1974 2.0L engine. W/ good compression

2.\ Valves have been adjusted and double checked.

3.\ Timing set at 29dgs BTDC running Crane Optical unit, new coil, new wires, new plugs, new trigger points.

4.\ Fuel pressure at 29 lbs and remains steady (AFAIK)

5.\ TPS is new and the setting is dead on per spec.

6.\ Tested fuel injectors and they put out the desired pattern and amount. Checked connects also. They appear good.

7.\ MPS tested and all is good there.

8.\ All new vacuum hoses and they are routed to the proper locations

9.\ New head temp sensor and it measures correct via pblanders FI web page

10.\ Idle is set at 975 and it just hums perfectly.

11.\ Distributor appears to be ok and the pot moves the advance plates when vacuum is applied. Not sure about the centrifugal parts down below.

12.\ Clutch, pressure plate and all is is in good shape. Cable is adjusted perfectly

13.\ Checked grounds. (cleaned ground terminals for F.I harness.)


Here is the issue I'm having. The car takes off good in first, but you can't make it redline if you wanted to. This goes the same for any of the other gears. There is no rev limiter on the system. I can get it to rev past 6000 if I'm setting still. Just not in any gear as I upshift.

It just starts breaking up, when I punch it to the floor. I can even punch it to the floor while in second and and it just fights to get up to speed. The engine roars to life, but it labors doing so. I have to feather the gas to get it to keep the revs steady. You have to shift it fast to get the car up to speed from a light. As it breaks up in between shifts and I have to really hammer the gas. I went back to the bird site and got the instructions to check /set the TPS and that is good to go. I just do not know what the issue is.

I also notice that I can not leave it in fourth on the freeway as the engine just fights to stay at speed. I have to shift into fifth to get the car up to 70 miles per hour. And even then it will break up if I try to punch the gas any further to the floor. It is almost like I have to feather the gas pedal to get it to stay at 70 as any slight movement down on the pedal causes the car to struggle. I cannot get the car over 72 as it labors to go any farther. Something else I notice is the tach will jump up and down once in a while while keeping the gas at a steady place. I checked all behind the dash and other places looking for an electrical issue, but I do not see anything. I even ran a new wire for the ground side of the coil back to the front. No change even after doing this.

My question is. What the hell could cause it to do this?

I have run out of brain cells trying to decipher the issue.

Can anyone help?


THANKS !!!!

Tach jumping makes me think ignition wiring. Make sure the wires and connectors are good, especially around the coil.

i'd suspect fuel delivery, it has the earmarkings of vapor lock or volume delivery problems.

mike

only a guess but something to check: not getting enough fuel like a clogged fuel line? rust in tank-> line? any way to verify fuel pump flow rate?

Keep in mind, fuel delivery does not make the tach jump.

but a secondary issue of the engine dieing out/coming to life can bounce the gauge. i would think a detailed discription of the tach. (mis) operation could help out.

Nah.... If electrical is strong as you're driving, the tach doesn't bounce. Even if fuel delivery suffers, tach is still accurate. Not like the car could actually lurch from normal to no RPMs for real.

Don't mean to be argumentative, but just sayin'

If tach is actually following engine RPM and it's dropping because the car is slowing down, then that's one thing. But if tach is bouncing about, that's another.

Hmmm, tach jumping. Coil connections?

LOL. Hmm. There's a thought.

I think you may need to OHM out the FI harness.
Specifically between the Injectors and ground.
Check the main star ground connection on the top of the case under the plenum.

Also, OHM out the TPS and CHT and Dizzy FI points wiring and the Injectors all to the Plug on the ECU...

Rich

I know you said the coil is new, but it could be the problem if it's defective. Might try swapping it out with a known good one to confirm it's operation.

Try going back to points to remove the Crane from the circuit. Tach bouncing makes me suspect it.

--DD

Quick test...unplug the wire for the tach. Its not inline.
Its one of the two on the coil from the main harness.
I had a tach short out and it took me a while to figure it out..
Unplug it and see if the tach is the issue...maybe/maybe not...but its a simple enough test.

Rich

The tach jumping goes somethin like dis. Say for example that I'm cruising up the road at 2500 the tach will sometimes dip to 1900 and then bounce back to the 2500 mark.
It does this sporadically.

On the issue of fuel ( good point guys btw ). When I was building the car. I put in new aluminum fuel line from Jegs. I then tested the line and visually inspected it to make sure I had no kinks or obstructions or other issues. Tank was emptied of the old Jurassic gas and then chemically cleaned internally.


Following Rich's idea I'm going to go out an pull the tach wire from the coil and see if this thing acts the same way. As I would probably lay an egg out of pure joy if it was the issue
( if golden then I'll donate it to the club ), if not...scrambled anyone?

If all this does not prove fruitless, then I guess ripping out the Crane unit and go back to points to check that for DD's suggestion.

I disconnected the neg connection on the coil from the tach. It did not help. So, that eliminates the tach.

I also pulled out the ignition switch and re-checked the connections. This switch is new also and I have new spares, just in case. Nothing found in the inspection.

i know it's been poo poo'd but i still say you should check for possible vapor lock (overheat soaked rear mounted pump.) or volume delivery (weak pump/fuel filter). it CAN cause the tach to jump with in a reasonable amount(got the t-shirt) as the engine stutters. besides you'll never know unless you check.

a good idea to install an inline fuel pressure gauge (i got a nice 0-60 lbs fluid guage for less than $30 shipped from e-bay). check pressure (29#'s) and volume

does anyone know what volume the 914 should put out? how old is the fuel filter? is your pump rear mounted? does it have all the underside cooling flaps and/or does it run hot?

Well the good thing "and something else I forgot to mention". The pump is up front.
So, no vapor lock. I have a inline gauge in the engine bay and it stays at a constant 29. I think the book calls for 28lbs ?

I have tinkered with the timing from retarding just a hair to advancing ( just a hair ). And that has not hampered the breaking up while getting on the throttle. I'm so fucking aggravated I can't see straight!!!!! I'm going to kill this car!!!!!

I have pulled the dizzy and I'm going to make sure everything moves real easy.

I also did a search on here and I'm starting to think my 30+ year old fuel injectors may be having issues. I'm going to soak them in a solution in the mrs old hydro-sonic jewelery cleaner. Then I'm going to hook up a couple of D batteries with a on off button and try to force some cleaner back through the inlet with some air from the compressor. Hopefully I'll find some junk or other issues to get this issue resolved.

If that doesn't do the trick. I'm buying all new GL- Sorenson injectors for $59 each and be done with it. I just have this feeling that maybe this is the issue as the symptoms are indicative of fuel starving or a rubber F.I line is crimping / collapsing under full load / WOT. I found a issue on here where someone was having the exact same issue as I'm having.

Have you checked the plugs yet? If the car won't rev freely, it is a good sign that it is not getting air or fuel. After a hard pull on the road, push in the clutch and turn off the ignition. Pick a good low traffic area to do this. Pull the plugs, if they are clean, then that would point toward a fuel delivery problem. If they're dark, may be a plugged air way problem. New filter in air cleaner? Could anything have gotten into the intake runners? You have checked the timing, but may be agood idea to do so again. Are you sure you had the light on the right wire? Not trying to be negative, but these things happen and can drive you crazy. When I wired mine back up the first time, I had the plug wires in the wrong direction on the distributer cap.
Good luck
Tom

Tom,
The plugs look ok, but I have to say that the car runs a little rich. I put in a 270 ohm resister inline to the head sensor. I pulled the whole airbox off with filter in tow and closed off any lines to the air box and filter ( less the PCV line ). I then performed another test and the outcome was the same. Bog, bog, bog on tromping the gas.. I have checked the timing until I think I'm ready to cry. I have the firing order set at 1-4-3-2 clockwise. So, I'm good there. As far as anything living or previously living in the intake runners. I can't say. they were clear when I put them in. I love fuel injection, but I wish I could tear this thing down, rebuild it for carbs and forget this whole mess.

Nothing worst than a frustrating problem like this to add more gray hair to the roof.

maybe run with another known good coil, in not another coil try closing the gap on the plugs a bunch and see if it will rev up a little higher.

One more thought, a blocked exhaust. I know it's unlikely, but a plugged exhaust will rob power and cause dark plugs.
Tom

I'll try both suggestions. At this point no harm no foul. I took the injectors out last night and I hooked up a couple of D batteries, intermittent switch and used some high pressure to blow cleaner through the units. Until I got a killer cone shaped spray.

Tonight I'll check the exhaust and dig out my old blue coil and check it for goodness. Then line it up for a test once the injectors are back in.


I'm feeling like luck is on my side.

Steve, I feel your pain and frustration. I too am going through the FI process. Good luck and keep at it...

-- Rob

Rob,

I think things are here to test us and my redneck hillbilly ass is going to pass this test. If it kills me.

I took my dizzy completely apart tonight. And cleaned it better that concours condition. Take that you CW people.

Then it got a new set of points, cap, rotor and a new condensor. I'm going with the tried and true Dave Darling method.

And you know what his motto is. "If he can't fix it...its broke"


I have cleaned the injectors overnight in a ultrasonic bath of MEK and a little PB blaster.

I then tested each one electronically and pressure wise and they cone out the fuel in perfect shape and amount.

Almost gave me a pink pencil boner I got so excited

Tomorrow night is putting the mess back together and taking the exhaust off and check it for dead critters.

UPDATE:

OK everything is back in. Just one lil frigg'in problem.

I CAN"T GET THE DISTRIBUTOR IN THE RIGHT POSITION TO START !!!!!!

I have the little adjuster nut on the advance can pointing dead center to the PCV valve. I used this as a marker as that was pretty much how all the pics I found on here look to be set to. While I crank it, just as I let off it hits a couple of times, then nothing.

The Crane was so quick to start and points are a bitch!

The point gap is on spec.
Fuel pressure is @ 30 psi
Checked all plugs to the injectors, TPS, Coil, sparkies, grounds, etc all looks good and tight.
I have a good spark ( I think ) as it is hitting once in a while

What is the two pronged connector on the intake box just below the TPS ?
I have that unhooked as I need to make new ends. Would that stop it from starting?

Two-wire connector on top of the plenum? Temp Sensor I, or air intake temp sensor. Makes the mixture somewhat richer when you unplug it.

How's the ground braid inside the distributor?

--DD

Maybe true but your Crane pickup was in a different position than your points lobe rub-block. Timing will be different when changing from Crane to points or visa-versa.

Gotta re-time it. I'm guessing you are running retarded because if it was too advanced you wouldn't be able to turn it over and would experience kick-back.
Too retarded, get sputtering but doesn't quite start.

I had an optical, swapped for a HEI, and eliminated a similar symptom.

You're doing great. The fix is in sight.

Dave Thank you for the info. I'll get that corrected pronto.


Doc Roger my hands shake like a leaf every time I touch the dizzy as it is really sensitive to adjustment. I think I need to have a few Warsteiners and see if that calms me down. To any others watching, pay close attention to the boob playing with the dizzy. If I get it dead-on, I'll take a big ole picture with a reference mark to help you all do the same if you ever need to do this.


I'm going to pull the valve cover and double check the valves on number one for closed position and to confirm I'm really up on the compression stroke.
( thank you previous posters to this issue )

Search is ur fren

Stand-by I'll post the results late this evening.....

Do you know how to static time a motor?
Use a test light to set the distributor correctly via static timing...that will be close enough to start the car.

Static timing is not correct for our cars, so you need to use a dwell meter and a timing light afterwards.
You wont get the points right without a dwell meter...its just not possible.

Rich

Yes Rich I do, but dog gone it I can't seem to get this car to do what I want. I have restored over 500 cars from the 40s - 70s and for the life of me I'm a wee bit stupid is all I can say these days. I'll get it this evening or tomorrow morning. I promise. I have ever tool to do the job including a CO meter. I will make this thing run !!!!

IF NOT I got really great grades in the military from improvised munitions class. I'll send it to Jesus if I fail.

With that attitude you are certainly qualified to fix a stupid old 914....get 'r done.

Rich

Aye Sir Click to view attachment

OK a update to my hell on earth...


Well I made myself one of those dandy static lights. It doesn't go completely out when playing with the timing, it just goes from bright to dimmer. Obviously I git it set to brightest and the car starts fine the first crank. You have no idea how happy that made me.

Now the fun stuff. My coil had good primary windings. However, the secondary were toast. So another trip to autozone for a new MSD 2 coil. Now the car starts great. No more Accel coils for me. This was the second one in a year.


More fun stuff
I'm having an issue with the car not able to get the car to smooth out. I was running dwell at 83. I re-gapped the points from .016 to .014 and now the dwell is 55. That is fine. Nice fat blue spark.

The not so fun stuff.

The car has never run 100% after the rebuild. So, I have to turn the dizzy too much and then the advance can hits the sides. The dizzy does not really line up with the bail wire for the oil fill. This made me suspicious. Based on how the car is running. I'll bet my sorry ass that the car is not only 180 out, BUT that the dizzy gear in the engine is not pointing properly. OR I have it BTDC on the exhaust stroke.

SOOOO... I'm going to go outside right now and pull the valve cover. Then turn the engine over until number 1 cyl valves are closed and the car on the compression stroke. I'm also going to check and see if the engine builder just happened to put the dizzy gear in upside down, With the small end at the top. I remember someone posted they had this issue and other talking about how to change it back to normal.

I smell success Fellas !!!!!

o.k... corect me if i'm wrong but the "static light" should go out completely when the points are open. the grond is removed and the voltage is sent to the condensor... maybe something to do with killing the accel coils? the condensor may be leaking? or may have been a couple non resistor coil (doesn't the 914 use a resister coil?) could an incorect coil spike a condensor to cause leakage? did you replace it?

HUMMMM damn good point there. The light is supposed to go out. But mine stays on all the time. It just goes from dim to bright as I move the timing. That might be the key on this one to add to the troubles I have. It does start when the light just turns real bright. On the first crank I may add.

To answer your question. The points and the condesor are new. That doesn't meant that the condensor is good I agree.

Maybe someone can chime in if a condensor can cause this side effect????

Anyone of you masters out there, can remember or answer this? I cannot recall.

UPDATE:

I just pulled the dizzy out and checked the distributor drive gear in conjunction with the TDC /valves on number one closed.

I looked at the gear and it is per specs and what McMark posted back in 2004
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=7934

All good there.

I did notice that IF I were to push down on the number one plug going into the dizzy cap the engine would rev perfectly up to red line. Try to do it without pushing down and the car will not rev over 1500 rpm if I'm lucky


Me thinks it is a dizzy cap issue. I have another new one to check it against.

Shit this stuff is aggravating! I need another paxil.

Is that braided ground strap between the advance plates in the dizzy good? Solid solder joints at both ends?

I had to make a ground strap as the braided one fell off. I did this after I took the whole dizzy apart, soaked it in MEK and then reassembled with lube. Talk about clean!

I wonder where to can get those braided ground pieces?

They come with new points plates. Which are good things in and of themselves...

--DD