http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-914...hoto#ht_500wt_0

So I saw these on ebay, and am kinda curious to see if anyone here has used them?
Is so what pistons did you match them with?

Good luck.
After you use them you'll know more than the MFR does about them.

They have no idea what pistons, rings or head studs to use with them, because they have done ZERO development on them!

Do some searches.. In summary they are cheap, under developed, Chinese knockoffs of the LN Engineering Nickies cylinder. I have measured and analyzed a set- I won't use them.

A single quality, developed component cost MORE than that full set! Hell, just the plating for a set of Genuine Nickies cost well more than the cost of that entire set!

Failures from them are numerous and some quite severe when the plating chips from the cylinders and enters the oil system, being force fed through every critical clearance within the engine. These are plated with Nickel, Silicon Carbide and it's so tough that only a Diamond will cut it so you can imagine the hell is causes when being fed through bearings.

The search function is your friend.

I am just curious so I emailed him with questions about rings, pistons, and head studs. Lets see what is said. If I had disposable income, I would build an engine out of all of these snake oil appearing parts and take bets on which one will fail first. That would be some fun

I'm seeing some mighty fierce speculating here. Has anyone actually used these or taken some measurements or something?

It's all well and good that everyone thinks chinese parts are junk, but I guarantee all of the motherboards in the computers you are posting from were both designed and built in china.

Cliff,
If you look in his store he has matched piston and cylinder sets so I'm sure you can contact him about the size and get an answer.
Despite Jake's misgivings about these parts this seller has been selling them for 4 years now and has a 100% positive rating. QSC also makes nikasil cylindersfor 911's and there is a car racing with them out of Ventura without problems so far. The engine has been together a little over 3 years and has run a couple of dozen weekends without incident, but as the other posts have said "buyer beware". You pays your money and ya takes yer chances
Kart54

I have no feeling one way or another, I said snake oil "appearing"

I would love to see some competition in this market.

Well, I agree that they are somewhat suspect, however I feel that some of the things Jake said are unwarranted. As Kart54 pointed out they do have matched sets, so someone has a clue as to what to put in 'em.

I am probably going to end up going with 1987ish 911 turbo cylinders and pistons. I can get six of em for the price of four Nickies, brand new from Germany.

Well said Jake.
I talked to these people (QDS) at the SEMA show.
They are clueless about what they sell. I asked what the fin count was.
Answer? "Yes we have fin"
I also talked to the guys at L & N. They looked at them and found they were out of round and had holes in the cylinders.
They will sell to anyone direct.
http://www.qscusa.com/
Contact them and see what you think.

Just 'cause somebody sells them doesn't make the product good. The VW air cooled product market is rife with total crap, and some how some vendors manage to stay in business.

You can try and ding Jake for speaking his mind (and the facts), but the man doesn't spew BS. If he didn't know what he was talking about, I believe he'd say just that.

Well I take Jake at his word everytime. He has put mucho time and energy into developing the Type 4 into twice the engine that Porsche started with. For those that want to doubt his wisdom, Go For It. I suspect, you'll be disappointed, your completed motor will grenade, you will say the hell with 914's and we will have to educate the guy that buys your tub.

Jake knows his shit and is kind enough to share his wisdom. I see absolutely nothing wrong in what he stated.

If you can't afford a Raby, do yourself a favor, buy some proven EBS pieces. You won't get big HP, but you won't be buying junk either.

And comparing a motherboard in a computer to knock-off pistons & cylinders is ludicris. Enjoy the advise with a glass of milk.

Jake has never built a motor for me (I'm a Six guy), but I have driven URY's car at speed and can testify that sob motor kicks ASS.

T.C.

If the plating on the LN cylinders cost for what these sell for I would look the other way. For a critical part I would good with one that has been proven. Makes me wonder what type of alloy and the quality of the plating. I remember a couple of years ago Len getting a call from a female for a company trying to asking him questions about his cylinders and the plating he just hung up.

Comment's that come from a person that deals with this sort of thing everyday is hardly unwarranted. Jake speaks from experience and knowledge. He gave examples of what he has seen happen to motors in the past that have used theses cylinders. It's hard to argue with real time data.

It's your money so do with it what you like, but please don't say his comment's are unwarranted.

Jake does nothing but try to educate and help everyone here.

Yes, I have measurements and about every other form of data anyone could ever request. I PAID the money to get some of this done and did some of it in house.

If someone has any doubt about the substance of anything I have posted in this thread, they can kiss my ass!

I worked with LN to develop their cylinders since day one, these QSC cylinders were the product of Steve Stromberg and his shady business after LN REFUSED to sell cylinders to him because of his reputation. So he found the Chinese and made these components. When the Chinese finished them Stromnberg had already ripped people off for 100K or more and had went underground! Then they just put them on ebay and have been selling them to unsuspecting people that **THINK** that all aluminum cylinders are created equally, allowing LN's stellar reputation to falsly advertise these components.

QSC knows nothing about what they are selling, using these parts means that you'll be guessing about head studs, torque values, rings gaps, ring selection and even skirt clearance and ring gaps. ALL of these things are critical aspects of engine assembly and none of them can be guessed at. QSC cares nothing about their product, else they would have paid the money to a developer (like me) to find the information for them. LN did that over 10 years ago and now we have all sorts of methods to get the most out of their cylinders, running skirt clearances and ring gaps that are un-heard of while making extreme power with extreme longevity.

Some Chinese parts are OK, hell even EMPI made a decent carburetor in China with input from myself and Art Thraen and today they are all we use! BUT the difference is someone with some real sense HAS to step in to ensure things are done right, else it'll be the pile of shit that is expected to wear the Chinese label.

There are other examples of this as well as there are several Chinese made parts that we "re-do" and make them worth a damn.

I have a serious issue with any manufacturer that knows nothing about what they sell. I have had DOZENS of customers come my way with failed engines due to these cylinders and other parts made by people that don't even know what a freakin Type 4 engine is. Thats bullshit.

Want me to be even more direct?? Start arguing or hinting that I am not being fair and the "Old Jake" will come back to the keyboard and not give a damn what happens.

Henry at Supertech sells these cylinders for 6 cylinders motors with a caveat.
He buys multiple sets and does a through dimensional inspections, matches heights & bores (roundness, bore diameter) then resells. He reports good results with them.

Who has had experience with Nikasil flaking off cylinders? Dumbshit me had too tight ring gaps on my last motor. 2 of The cyls were gouged to the point of being junk but no flaking...Mahle clys.

The cylinders I measured had Nikisil flake off with just my thumbnail at the bottom corner of the cylinder used as a "removal device". Real cylinders like Mahle and LN that have REAL PLATING require a lot of effort to flake the Nikisil, like JP stated.

I know of 3 engines that have had Nikisil flake from the cylinders...

The 911 cylinders have issues too, Charles gets those calls all the time, BUT not many 911 guys use the cylinders- most of them are smart enough to avoid them from the beginning.

The cylinders might be worth a damn if they were made in China and then shipped here to be plated by Millennium Technologies, like the LN cylinders. Most of the issues are the plating and measurements, not the cylinder material. After all this was done they'd rival the cost of a REAL set of Nickies but still would not be as strong or have the exacting tolerances, or specifically designed head studs.

I have no dog in this hunt. I will only use Mahle cyls on my motors.....but that is my decision.

If you want another view of the QSC cyls go here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forumdisplay.php?f=257

You can search the forum or ask Henry directly about them.
Be advised....you will find Henry with the familar "I am THE engine building God" attitude.

There are also threads on my forum, the samba, cal-look and many other forums about these cylinders.



Then more than likely he actually knows what he is doing. I haven't met a "passive" engine builder yet that was worth a shit.

Funny way to say it, but I agree. The guy I took all of my old Type I stuff to was really blunt. If you took his suggestions, he would take your project. If you wanted it done your way, you could do it. Most of my friends didn't like his "attitude" and wouldn't let him do their work. Of all of the cars that we had, mine is the only one still running the same motor... Oddly it was the fastest too. He knew what he was talking about, and what it took to do it right. I'll take a running car over a cheery attitude anytime.

And the best Doctors usually have the worst bedside manner...

Assemblers will do anything happily, builders put 200% of their time into making the son-of-a-bitch run the best it can.

Well, first I'll go with the topic at hand, then feed some fire to the flames.

Jake, I'd love to see the numbers that you have on the set you got! That would be supremely useful information. Also, I'd love a picture of the cyl with flaked coating, bonus points if you show a nail chipping it.

Notice I never presented the cylinders as great, I knew they were suspect from the beginning. I am mighty surprised that I have no first hand experiences of these cylinders being related. Jake, could you coax one of your customers who suffered a failure to post here?

I'm kinda with JP that I'd much rather use Mahle's in an engine that I care a lot about, but this is more for a test of concept engine.

As such, I'm really interested in the modes of failure, If they are simply out of round a certain percentage of the time I can probably deal with that (buy two sets). If the coating flakes, that's a bit more of a challenge, but I could probably get them recoated and still bring it in for cheaper than the LN ones.


Now onto the topic of the "Engine Building God." The gentlemen who built my Type IV has been building race engines for years. As anyone in the PCA around here will tell you. He knows what he's doing more than any person I've ever met, but still manages not to be a narcissistic prick.

The difference I see is between quiet knowledge of one's skill, and constant blaring to other people in an attempt (as I see it) to troll for business. The gentlemen in question is happy to tell you that you're an idiot and not take your project, but I have never once heard him talk about how wonderful his designs are, excepting perhaps a recollection of a winning race.

He's also aware of the fact that anybody can build an air cooled VW engine decently.

I like my engine, and that I don't finance an advertising campaign along with it

So, back on topic: I'd love to see measurements, and hear some first person accounts!

I'll bite...

1. I only have so much fun money. I don't mind waiting and spending a lot of it if I have to, but I hate doing things twice. It's almost never cheaper to replace a failed part, especially something internal to an engine, then it is to have paid the difference and done it right the first time. I know it's an opinion, but that's how I do things.

2. My VW guy is a bit of a jerk. Not narcissistic at all though. He knows the way to make things last, and will not take on a project that he knows isn't going to last and will come back to haunt him. In my line of work, I also need to know how to avoid projects that you know are doomed to failure. I appreciate that.

I know that Jake is a little "in your face", but it doesn't bother me. He doesn't BS anyone, tells the truth, and stands behind his work. That may not be the person you want over for dinner, but it is the kind of person I want working on my car.

You asked a question and got a reliable answer what more do you need?

If you don't believe, trust or are skeptical about your answer, buy the cyl's, do your own research and post the results here.

No reason for a he said she said pissing contest.

I'd like to see the source data, I can do a fair amount to fix things that are wrong and deal with them. Jake has this data, and I'd be greatly appreciative if he would share it.

The initial question was asking for a first person account of the cylinders, which Jake did give, but his association with LN makes me somewhat suspect of his interpretation. The measurement numbers would take this completely out of question (and be much more useful for my purpose, as I said above).

It would be foolish to do my own research with such a great resource available, and I am sure Jake is willing to provide details on the inferiority of a competing product to us.

I'm also certain that someone in the community has actually bitten the bullet and mounted these to an engine, I'd love to hear from them.

Seems like a reasonable request. I guess Jake paid in time and money to see 'em, but hey, if it's data that helps him sell his product what good does it do for him to keep that info secret? And it sure would help a lot of other people, and his own credibility, to share.

On the other hand those numbers are from years ago already. If I recall correctly they're from when those cylinders first appeared in the market here. The manufacturer may have used the "test data" feedback they got from their first failures to improve their product, who knows? In that case Jake's numbers wouldn't be very relevant, just interesting.

oh god!
stay away!!!!

QSC makes the worst quality shit... yea it's that bad...

i literally JUST wrapped up my ordeal with them by selling all 5 broken cylinders to a local on Craigslist.

save yourself the trouble... they'll all arrive broken, the replacements will arrive broken, but in a nice shampoo box! and once you file a claim, they'll be yours free because the seller won't respond.

so... buyer beware with QSC!

EDIT: my experience: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...5&hl=qscusa


i now know to trust mr. raby with any engine-related questsions i may have now! (both 914 and boxster!!!! woot) *thx jake*

Boys:
I am in the middle of building a new shop, tearing down an X51/996 engine and a dozen other thing. I NEVER should have posted on this topic and thanks for reminding me of that, especially knowing all the other things I had going on and how this would spiral out of control..

If you want measurements, buy a set and get them, chip the Nikisil and experience it first hand, because thats what I did.

I am not related to LN at all, I have done all their testing and know how much money they have spent 9and time) to make the best product available. It concerns me when a "confusingly similar" component enters the market that was initiated by a shyster and has ZERO development done to it before being exploited to the public as "A Nikisil Aluminum cylinder".

I'll share my measurements with anyone thats willing to share the cost of the cylinders that I had to buy to gain them- I won't be doing it for free, because I don't have to. It was MY STUDY done by an Engineer working under MY ROOF. None of that was free.

FYI- Not even LN got those results.

I am an assembler. I pick my combo, have the machine work done, then assemble. To me an engine is another part of the whole to make the car work as desired....and it had better keep working.

If the whole car doesn't work, it's my fault.....no blame for anyone but me, cause I did all the work on the thing......well, that's not entirely true. My co-driver did some....while I watched.

I know a couple fellas that do the same thing professionally. They both have the God complex to some degree.....maybe deservedly so. The real test of character is how one handles failure. I haven't seen this situation with either one......which is what the "maybe" is for.

As Jake said, Nikasil is pretty tough. Here's a pic of one of my cyls and the pistons that came out of them. A leak down test did a "WHOOOSH" so it came apart for a look. I got off lucky. They never got to the "come off en mass part". I have pics of some others that got to that point. If Jake says it's OK, I'll show ya.

Oops, that pic is after cleaning the pistons.
Here's drity.....and a knuckle.

Cliff, your baiting the wrong man and all you are going to get back is in your face because you won't listen to simple advice. I would have Jake over for dinner anytime (when you coming down to Tampa?), he's a great guy that I have met in person. But if you start questioning his integrity or asking him to share his secrets, he's going to tell you to eat shit.

And not all engine guys are narcisistic pricks. The guy that does my Six's is one of the nicest guys you ever want to meet and he shares alot of knowledge on Pelican. He longer builds race motors based on magnesium cases due to their age and inherit brittleness. One of the motors he commited to building for me is a 7R Mag case, but it was shuffle-pinned and machined at his shop. The other is an aluminum case. I just tell him what I want and he delivers. If I would dare to tell him his business, he will tell me where I'm wrong. The result = I get great motors and he and I have been friends for 20 years.

my advice, take what Jake has said and believe it. Or buy Chinese shit and bitch later.

T.C.

This all boils down to a professional who has worked hard to get to a point in his career he is happy with and people who can't afford his services trying to find a cheaper alternative.

I get pissed at these bashing threads because there are a handfull of you that want to bash Jake for his prices, his personality etc. Those of you who engage in this behavior have obviously never worked hard and made sacrifices in your life to be better than the rest. Had you tried to excel, to the top level in your field you would understand the opinion of junk being junk.

I completely understand where Jake is coming from because I deal with similar issues myself. I have had numerous people get shitty with me when I quote a paint job, ONLY a paint job at 4500.00. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard " Damn I can get it done at Macco for 500.00 " Fine go there, I don't want your money if you don't know any better than that. We have had people wander in the shop gawking at customers cars wanting to know how much it would cost to get there car done like that. You tell them 15,000.00 you can almost see the heart stop.

Want a cheaper engine??? Find it yourself....can't find it.....make the parts yourself....can't make the parts ??? Tough shit. Build one of the engines with inferior parts...it might get you 2-3 years, re-build it with cheap parts...get another 2-3 years....but in the end how much money will you have in those re-builds vs. one of Jakes kits that will last, and if it does fail you will have someone stand behind it.

I do not have one of Jakes kits, I will be putting a 6 in one of my cars, I will use used parts and mediocre pieces if I don't have the money. BUT I won't be pissed if the engine fails because I know upfront I'm not doing it 100% correct.

If i'm counting the real experiences you asked for right, so far we're at:

QSC is great! = 0
Stay away from that junk! = 3


I never understood people that ask a question and drag it out until they get the exact answer they want to hear, while ignoring everything else that doesn't fit with what they think the answer to their question should be ...
Andy

Scotty,
Thanks for that post- it was spot on correct.

Now the X51 is calling, I need to have a close encounter of the 5th kind tonight-this one has a broken crankshaft :-)

So you ask a question, get good answers from excellent sources, and you want to tell them how wrong they are, or question motives?



Bad form and just plain rude.

How bout you choke up and buy that crap, take the time to put it in an engine, and then come back after it's got a few thousand miles, and let us know how it's workin' for ya?

Waaaait a minute! X51 is cooled with water isn't it??

JP, those were the QSC cylinders?

Andy, I've agreed that the cylinders are probably crappy several times. I'd just like something more quantified about WHY. I'm likely never going to build an engine with these cylinders. I'd just like better data, which I'm not going to get, apparently.

I'd also like two point out that two of those experiences came AFTER my post asking for them for a third time...



Again, this is looking for data. While I got AN answer from AN "excellent" source, I was looking for something a bit more detailed, or the experiences of someone who'd actually put them into an engine.

Now, I know you guys are really into taking what people say at face value, but I'd like to get some data to back it up. I said NOTHING about how Jake was wrong. I question him as a source of information because of his involvement with LN, and he's done nothing to put this worry to rest. Per his own response he did all of their testing, and his refusal to provide information reinforces this view.

Too lazy to quote for the rest.

Scotty B, it has nothing to do with being cheap, as I've said a couple times, this is for a weird idea for an engine, and I'm willing to go with Mahle's, as it seems I'll need to. Also, I just paid about that much for a paint job, and significantly more for my DD/Autox Type IV. Calling me cheap is a bit unreasonable as you'll see when the car is "done" in a week or so.

Also, again as I posted earlier, I'm willing to do some work to the cylinders, up to the point where it's cost effective to do so. As Jake said they'd probably be decent recoated.

Carr914, There's no reason for those results to be secret, they're an example of how a competing product is not so hot. I'd be perfectly willing to share such things with the world. My engine builder isn't a narcissistic prick either, and we get on great, good to know that not all of 'em are, congrats on finding a good one.

Jake, I'm kinda sad that you won't share those measurements, I feel I've gotten the warning I need from the user experiences though, so it's not too big of a hitch.

Stateofidleness, Thanks for the experience, I'm sorry you had to go through all that with your engine. By all yours free, did you actually get all of your money refunded? How were they broken?

JP, Saw your car at the shootout, you build a damn nice machine. What engine were those nickies in? are they the QSC ones? I'm sorry, it wasn't entirely clear from your post.

To everyone, I don't mean to create a large argument, but for the first page or so all I had was Jake saying they were useless, I'm happy to accept this with numbers as to why or actual personal experiences. I've gotten the latter, and won't be getting the former, so I really appreciate all of your help.

That said, if anyone has the cylinders I'd love to see some numbers off of them, As I've said before, I'm simply trying to determine if they're in the realm of repair. Knowing WHY they are wrong helps me price fixing them versus the other options.

Those were Mahles in JP's post - you can see at the bases the MAHLE script cast in the side if my eyes aren't playing tricks on me.

I have a set of QSCs here that were sent by a customer to eval - I had planned on putting them through my own version of hell to check them out but I have had plenty of guys call me and order Nickies after having poor results with the plethora of cheap chinese cylinders. Two were type 1 guys whose cylinders had bad plating (peeling, flaking, removable by just using your nails) and also were not in spec for concentricity of the bore to the registers nor were the bores perpendicular to the deck(something that most guys aren't looking at or for), among other problems.

The other three have been 911 guys, all with smaller /6's - 2.0, 2.4, short stroke 2.5 - the 2.0 had the pistons seize in the bores even with the proper clearance - i.e. expansion rates not matched up and it didn't help that the cylinders came out egged, closing up the clearances during run-in.

The 2.5 had all the skirts break off the cylinders while the engine was on the dyno. 2.4 had plating fall off and were again dimensionally questionable and never made it on the motor - that engine got a set of bored out biral cylinders instead.

The most recent of these was probably early this year - haven't heard anything out of anyone lately on these cylinders. This is all I can offer because that's all I know from first hand accounts of their use.

Another company I know of evaluated them for use as an alternative to continuing to replate used mahle cylinders and chose to keep working with used cylinders over these new chinese castings.

An offer of replacing a set of cylinders as many of the above builders received is a very hollow gesture considering the cost of fixing collateral damage and the labor to do everything over again.

If you're not going to use Nickies on your /6 build, please at least use Mahles. If you're doing a type 4, bore out your existing cast iron cylinders, use some KB or JE's, and build a 2270 that we know will run fine with cast iron cylinders.

Thanks for the great input! I'd assume that any Aluminum Mahle will have a very similar coating inside to the NiCaSi. I have the ability to measure these very well before assembly so replacement is a fairly decent option to me, it just would make the build take longer.
Unfortunately the aluminum is kinda important for this engine, looking to do away with the head gaskets. I'd just go with autocraft or pauter but for the darn PCA rules. Probably looking at buying two sets of the 6 Mahle's and building three top ends.

Also, not that it's important but it'd be a type IV, and I already have a 2.0 that runs beautifully.

Of course they are Mahles, as I stated above, those is the only ones I'll use. Got 7 years out of them even tho I screwed the pooch & God knows how long someone else used them.

"At least use Mahles".....gimme a break.

I've actually been to QSC's warehouse in El Monte, CA.

The last time I was in LA, I had seen their ad on the samba, and decided I'd pick up one of their clutches, so stopped by.

The first issue was it was in the back of an office building, and when I showed up, they had no idea what was going on, and told me they don't normally sell direct from their "store"... then why did you put the address up on an ad trying to sell your parts?

Then they informed me they only had racing clutches, and that Porsche 914 clutches were something like 170mm... all the stuff they had in stock looked decent, but was made in China, and the whole experience could only be described as 'sketchy'.

I believed I ended up buying the clutch from Raby... probably a good choice.

JP, sorry, got a bit confused. I'm leaning heavily towards Alu Mahles (as I mentioned earlier), how would you rate them compared to the nickies? They are certainly cheaper.

Yes sir, refuted through ebay/paypal and because no response from the seller, it was automatically decided in my favor (full amount). The problem that arose was, part of my "agreement" was that the seller was to cover return shipping fees.. i never heard from them.. so after i stored them long enough (i should charge them a handling and storage fee ), I sold them on Craigslist just so i could get some closet space back.. $50 later, i'm happy

the cooling fins on all of them were in pieces and on a few ( i think 3 out of the 5), the actual cylinder was broken and missing!!! (they looked like the failure that happens in the boxster engine 'D chunk failure' i think its called)

when i opened the box, i pictured the delivery driver having an Ace Ventura moment with the box... that's what the contents looked like when i opened it lol

Some of you guys are really angry.
I'll look at cool pictures like this for awhile and go see if my wife still has nothing on under her robe.

I checked the gap after I took the motor apart....as I said, 7 years after assembly.
They showed bout .003 or less end gap. Musta been .000nuthin' originally.....thanks for reminding me.

Alusil have a problem. They need a fero coated piston to keep from galling piston to cylinder.
I has a destroyed 2.7 in my shop that apparently was assembled by someone that didn't know this......very ugly. The rebuild may have lasted 10 minutes.
The only fero coated pistons I know of are Mahle & KS both with a CIS shaped dome....not condusive to anything but a CIS style cam having little overlap.

That picture reminds me of my drive to work whenever it rains. Maybe I should invest in a new targa seal...

JP, posted that when I thought it was a quick failure, probably not the issue after 7 years . Do you know what Mahle uses specifically for the coating?

The engine had many hundreds of AX passes on it. I often didn't allow the engine to get up to temp before romping on it. I'm sure that didn't help the cylinder walls.

I don't know the coating process they use. "Ferro" would lead one to believe it's an iron derivative. I also understand that is is primarly for the break in process so if you have a matched set of in spec P/Cs you should be able to re-ring. A search of the Pelican engine rebuild forum will lead you to a huge thread on re-ringing Alusil P/Cs.
My own personal experience is with only the downside of Alusil.

Scotty B, it has nothing to do with being cheap, as I've said a couple times, this is for a weird idea for an engine, and I'm willing to go with Mahle's, as it seems I'll need to. Also, I just paid about that much for a paint job, and significantly more for my DD/Autox Type IV. Calling me cheap is a bit unreasonable as you'll see when the car is "done" in a week or so.



please re-read my post. NOWHERE within it did I reference YOU or anyone else apecifically. Over the years there have been MANY threads bashing Jake, and there are a few offenders that feel they must jump in each time. My post was an "in general" statement towards those that perpetuate the hate. If I have something specific to say to an individual, trust me I will name that specified person, if I make a comment WITHOUT naming a name(s) my comment is meant for the purpose of making a point

I measured them .003 out of round
I also saw a chipped plating issue on a set I opened while at their warehouse, in the box new.


That said, there are those who run them.
not me though.