does anyone sell a kit to install a 930 box inverted, to a SBC V8?

930 box runs about $4000

shifting setup?
*renegade has this stuff for 930 flipped RP setup for $800

clutch set up?
*on 930 box - is clutch hydraulically operated??l

i assume KEP can provide the adaptor stuff?
*renegade has this stuff for 930 flipped RP setup for $2000

jim

Did you roast your 901?

Zach

That seems really high for a 930 4sp.

Are you flipping the whole box or just the R&P? Im guessing the latter.



I *THINK* the 930 shifter is VERY similar to the 915 (Its just missing a 5th gear). So, I think you can run any of the 915 solutions but you should double check.



No, All 930 boxes are cable just like a 915. In 89 the turbo got the later G50 hyd clutch & tranny.

There is no kit for running a flipped 930 box. Are you gong to flip the ring and pinion or flip the whole gear box? Check out Brandwood for a shifter.

guys...

i did not roast my 901 - but 930 intrigues me : )

i need some opportunites to really beat the piss out of it to know how well it can withstand a fogging.

that asking price is for a freshly rebuilt 930 box.

i communicated with renegade a bit today - they have a kit for installing a 930 inverted. shifter $800, kit$2000, 930$4000, etc.

cable clutch - oh good.

-- see this --

Hello,
There are two ways to handle the installation of the 930 transaxle into the 914 chassis. You can flip the ring and pinion, as has already been mentioned, or you can flip the transaxle itself. I personally favour the later.

When you flip the ring and pinion inside of the gearbox you have to take out a very very significant chunks of the bellhousing. In fact, to do it properly, you take a cut out of the front side of the bellhousing and weld in a plate with a curve in it for proper clearance. And all of this is really just so you can slide the ring gear past to the other side to put it in place. The other thing you do is machine off a big chunk (about 20%) of the width of the ring gear. By doing this, you are effectively reducing a good chunk of the strength that you gained by running the 930 in the first place. It's still going to be way stronger than a 915, but it's not going to be as strong as it was. Then you've got to have a top notch mechanic who can set up the ring and pinion properly in it's new position so that it doesn't immediately eat itself from a bad backlash setting. Depending on who does the work for you, expect to pay $800-1500.

When you flip the whole gearbox (like Porsche did on a number of their own 935 racecars) it all gets a whole lot simpler. You don't have to do anything special inside the gearbox. You rebuild it like it's stock. Then, what we do is actually weld on new mouning holes on the outside of the box so that it will align properly with the studs on your engine. It requires a donor dead bellhousing to acquire the parts, but those are a dime a dozen and easily pulled out of the junk pile.

You are still left with shifting solutions to tackle. There's really no easy way to do it unless you can getyour hands on a Velios tail kit. I don't know if he's still doing them or not. Last time I checked neither Patrick nor Wevo were doing a 930 tailcone. They only do a 915 to 916 tailcone conversion kit.

That is something to consider. If you are running that turbo engine pretty stock without a lot of power adders you could potentially got with a 915. Doing the ring and pinion flip on that is much simpler and the shifting issues go away. Putting in some reinforcing items, like a billet sidecover and bearing plate will bring you up to very similar costs to a 930 gearbox. And the gearing is way better from the factory.

You don't mention your specific application, but if this is a racecar the stock 930 gearing is going to be worthless. Expect to replace at least 2 if not 3 ratios. At $800-1200 each, you will have as much into regearing the box as you spent on the core 930. Even if it's a street car, it's so damned tall, that you will still probably want to change out a gear or two.

The last option to consider is a flipped G50-01. This solves some of your other issues. It's a 5spd that is very well mated to the powerband of that 930 engine. It's going to cost you about the same to acquire and rebuild as a 930, but will save you when it comes time to regear it, because you won't have to. It does require some substantial chassis modifications and removal of trunk material, but it's been done a number of times already. It's not brand new territory.

That's all I've got for now. Feel free to ask any questions you have publicly or privately. Performance Porsche transaxles is all that my shop does. It's our specialty and my input is always free. I don't post here to make a buck. I post here to be part of a community for the cars that I love. Good luck with your project. Now if I could just find some personal time to work on mine...
Matt Monson

Jim, I can rebuild a 930 for you for wayyyy less Get me the box.

Mostly, people flip the whole box, not just the r/p. I can help you modify it for a flip, but not for a flipped r/p. Root may be able to help with that.

Total price is $6800.

The $6K between the "kit" (which will include essentially a Kennedy clutch package, adapter plate - which may be a copied version of the KEP, TO brg and mounting hardware) and the trans (which will be open diff 930 at that price point) is about right for new kit with rebuilt trans.

I will sell you all of my stuff for $3800 without any of my custom cable shift stuff - the KEP items have about 12 track days on them and look like new when I just took them out of the car a couple weeks ago.

Then you just buy the Renegade cable shifter which is the brand Brett mentioned IIRC that both Ren and Patrick use) and trans mount which I think has all the shifting mounts as part of it (then it is one, cohesive kit for the stock chassis car), have my working trans with new carrier bearings and such and save $$ right out of the hole.

Even down the road if you want to rebuild the 930 trans you are still in the money.

If you want to upgrade the axles for a high powered V8 and so forth I can tell you how to do that too - easy since you can buy stock Porsche axle assemblies brand new that are beefy enough for pretty much any setup.

so off the sales pitch and on to something a bit meatier - I had to search around my computer to find this info I had calc'd a looonnnng time ago when I considered if I wanted a 915 or 930 box.

The gear ratios in the 930 are perfect for V8 cars. That is what should make it attractive for guys converting over and why I picked the 930 over the 915 from day 1 of my conversion (I actually bought the trans before I ever even did the conversion so I would have it).

Click to view attachment

Notice that for a street driven car, the 930 box will turn only 2800 rpm at 75mph with a relatively standard diam tire for a 914 (I had 205/50-15s on my car at the time which are ~ 23" diam but I used the popular race slick diam of 23.5" here) whereas the 915 you are cranking 3600rpm. Not exactly an rpm I want to listen to on a long hwy haul to the nearby town. Nor is there any reason to beat a V8 like that.

You can get both lower with a larger wheel and tire combo (around 25" diam for 18s) and then the 930 is a real cruiser.

So you can invert a 930 or get a 915 and buy all custom gear sets for the thing and have more in it for less transmission trying to essentially gear it like the 930. The 930 is a no-brainer IMO for a straight-forward trans upgrade.

Jim was saying he found a rebuilt 930 for $4000 which is a heck of a deal if it was done right.

Unless you plan to personally subsidize the porsche community I don't see you delivering a properly rebuilt 930 for "wayyyy less" than $4000. Average core price has been close to $3000 for a while now, so that means you can do a parts and labor rebuild on a 930 for "wayyyy less" than $1000.

Synchros are close to $100 each and dogteeth are nearly $300 each. Even if you plan to work for free you'd need to start off with an exceptionally nice core to have a chance and then you'd be doing a refresh as opposed to a rebuild.

The brandwood shifter that Patrick sells has been around for a while. It works ok, but the shift quality leaves a lot to be desired. I don't know if they have a kit for an inverted 930, but it's just a matter of properly transferring the motion so making it work wouldn't be too hard.

It would be pretty simple to adapt Renegade setup to work with the inverted trans and the shift quality should be quite a bit better than the brandwood. It uses a modern shifter with much tighter tolerances.

Wow, Steve. I guess that only THEY can do such a deal, huh I have ways that are open to those to whom I am indebted. Jim has done a lot for me and there may be a way to help out in this matter. I didnt imply that the price point was erroneous or obscene, just that I may be able to do it for a better deal. Sheesh.

i love this place

where good guys abound

everyone has a bad day from time to time - myself excluded

thanks to all you guys - from steve at RH, to the good doctor, to george at AA and the rest of you half way decent members you are always trying to gouge a brother in the classifieds

peace out ya'll

I have 25" tires running a 930 box and it doesn't seem too tall geared for me. I run 0-60 in 3.3 seconds so I'm kinda thinking I'm geared pretty well. It cruises at 1950 RPM at 60mph...topped out it might touch 185-190mph. So I have the best of both worlds. All you need is a big torquey V-8 to pull it off.

As far as a flipped 930 being weaker than a non flipped box...I've talked to the best Porsche transaxle rebuilder in the country (Bobby Hart @ CA Motorsports Lake Havasu, AZ) and he said a flipped 930 box can handle just as much as a non flipped box. Just trying to help people make an informed decision.

Hooking up a cable shifter to an inverted box is no harder than hooking one up other wise. Just reverse the arrangement for the side to side movement and you're done (mount side to side cable 180 degrees opposite).

Not to steal the thread..... but if falls in the vein of the topic.

Anyone with an LS engine....

I have a kep adaptor plate to hook my LS2 engine to a upright 930 (non-inverted) box. The top two adaptor plate to transaxel holes have studs. The bottom two have drilled through holes. On a small block chevy you can reach the heads of these bolts with a wrench. On the LS series engine the bottom two holes sit against the flat surface of the deep sump of the block. Did you time cert these bottom holes for studs or some other solution? Thanks.

I have an LS6 with a KEP adapter plate for 930 trans. AS I recall, the adapter plate bolted up to the backside of the block and there are four studs that thread into the plate for the trans. Perhaps they are making them different now...

lets say for arguement sake that both versions of this box are equally strong - the savings of not flipping the RP is money that can go elsewhere. seems like running inverted is a no brainer - so to speak.

I wasn't trying to stir anything up. I was just wanted to clarify for the masses that if you found a properly rebuilt 930 for $4000 that it's a tough deal to beat. If Dr. E has a way to get you a nice box for less, that's great. However, for most people $4000 is a good deal.

I paid $3500 for a nice LSD 930 core not too long ago and it was a fair price at the time. With our economic down turn prices have softened up a little, but people still have room on their credit cards, so I haven't seen any being given away.

Incidentally, Tim's complete setup with clutch package and adapter for $3800 is a good deal too. Especially if it's the aluminum stage 2 pressure plate.

The biggest issue with running the 930 inverted is that it either drops your engine really low, or makes the trans sit really high. If you have a heavily modified car then cutting the rear trunk probably isn't a big deal. It's just something you have to work out when building the mounting system. You may also have increased CV joint angles depending on where everything ends up, but the 930 CV's should be able to handle it.

I haven't seen too much mentioned about length. Fitting a the late long bellhousing 930 in a 914 is a really tight fit. By starting with either the early 76/77 930 or cutting a later one down to size it gives you an extra inch. It may not sound like much, but it's a lot. If you are going to flip the ring gear, I'd shorten the bellhousing at the same time.

On the other hand, if you are trying to keep costs down and you don't mind making compromises with the fit, then there's nothing wrong with running it inverted. You'll want to get the engine as far forward as possible as the shift shaft ends up pretty much in the rear bumper. Even a low speed tap in the rear would get expensive very quickly. As far as function, the 930 works great upside down, so no worries there.

steve

hey - the stock market has everyone on edge - not me - i ain't got no stock - but i do have plenty of mac n cheese in the pantry : )

thanks for touching on length - i was going to ask - seeing the rh offers to shorten the 930 bellhousing as service.

yesterday i had the opportunity to beat on my car a tiny bit - some small burnouts and some fast 10-60 launches. i might have to stick with my 901 for a while and put my money into suspension and brakes. i am running and will continue to run a narrow body car with skinny tires (i like sleeper look).

i still think you should pursue a kit for those looking to do a 930 box inverted. are you saying trunk has to be cut out, and if so, hopw much of it, a pic or sketch of expected cut out area would be great, will reinforcement be required to be welded in?

thanks

jim

--

Optional: Flipping of ring and pinion for mid engine use: $1,400
Optional: Shortened bellhousing and main shaft for space limited applications (911,914 GT-40, etc) or for lighter clutch components: $700
Optional: Adapter plate and hardware, flywheel and bolts, Kevlar high performance clutch disc, HP pressure plate, custom hardened starter ring gear, throw out bearing, and pilot bearing: $1,995
Optional: Shifter kit with custom cable shifter, custom length cables, mounting plate, nose bracket, and shift-shaft attachment (Not necessary in 911's): $800 ( picture )

I'll be using the Brandwood cable shifter w/930 4spd on our new 914POC racer (GT2). About $475.00 for the shifter. Trans built by Allan over at Aase Motors.

The shifter is avail here: www.mooreparts.com/store/product/1510/AC711151/
We will mfg. our own transaxle nosecone support.

Marty

I agree Jim,

If you don't mind cutting the rear trunk and can get everything in the engine compartment & shifter hooked up just inside the rear bumper, an inverted 930 is definitely the way to go. Some individuals have actually packaged everything below the trunk floor w/out cutting...but the engine will sit very low...maybe too low. I haven't tried that...but would like to see someone who has pulled it off professionally. A shortened bell and a flipped RG is what I felt was necessary for my application as I was going to need all the room in the rear trunk to package my air induction system..and still have room to store the targa top. I really like the idea of saving money by running a stock unmodified 930 box...just didn't work for me.

If length is a problem just get one of these side shift 930's.


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If you are planning to stay narrow body I would strongly encourage you to consider sticking with a tall ratio 914 trans. The gearing is almost identical to a 930 and with a billet intermediate plate and a thorough rebuild it should hold up very well for most people. There's always someone out there who can find a way to break it, but that goes for almost anything. For those more "prone to breakage", then maybe going to something stronger makes more sense.

You don't have to baby the 914 trans, but you don't want to drop the clutch at 4000 rpms or go drag racing. Keep the shock loads to a minimum and apply the power smoothly. You also need to start out with a properly rebuilt gearbox. That doesn't mean just throwing some synchros at a tired 200k mile trans and flipping some gears around. It means the parts bill is going to hurt a little and the person assembling it should check everything, including resetting the ring and pinion for maximum strength. The payoff is less chance of turning big parts into little parts.

It's also a good idea to build the car around the transaxle you plan to use. It sounds funny, but transaxle options range from $500 to $15,000 or so. If you're going with the 914 trans, then build a higher reving motor with smaller displacement. The torque will come on a little later and be more trans friendly.

I've had a lot of V8 914's and right now I'm installing a built 914 trans in my heavy tube frame car with a very healthy 383. Conventional wisdom says that's suicide, but I really don't anticipate any problems; although I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to just anyone. I'll build the trans properly, and I'll drive it properly. On the track I wouldn't really expect to lose any time. Smooth is actually the fastest way around the track and I'll definitely have to be smooth to keep it together.

My LS6 car is getting an inverted 930 and it's going to be a more complicated installation. Like wbergtho, it's going to be getting 500hp, wide tires, and be built to handle anything I can throw at it. In a car like that it makes sense to skip right to the 930. Between the increased cost of the clutch package, 930 trans, shifting solution and fitment I would anticipate it easily costing an extra $5000 vs. doing a very nice tall ratio 914 trans for under $3k. Keep in mind that's doing an inverted stock 930. If you flip the ring gear and shorten the bellhousing you're looking at a couple thousand more for a difference of perhaps $7000 more.

Yes, that 500hp car with the 930 will be faster than a 350hp car running the 914 gearbox, but it's also probably twice the cost. It's definitely not twice as fast and they'd both induce perma-grin every time you get in.

I wouldn't ever anticipate there being a "kit" to install a V8 and inverted 930 in a 914; it's just too invasive. All the clutch components are the same, and the inverted adapter is readily available. That leaves you with actually hanging everything in the car. Not too hard with the short bellhousing, pretty tight with the long. It's really not all that difficult though.

That side shift 930 Wilhelm posted is certainly an option, but it's probably a $10,000 gearbox by the time you get it in the car. I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone out of building maximum effort cars, I just don't think everyone needs a $10k gearbox to have a fun and reliable V8 914.

For the guys that plan to put $5000 into suspension and brakes, $10,000 into an engine, maybe $10,000 into a nice chassis, then going to a high end trans makes perfect sense. Most others can spend half as much and have just as much fun.

Thats some good sound experience, there

I love the side shift 930, though

me too

but me running narrow tires - i guess an lsd 901 and some toyo ra1 rubber is probably the best set up.

for now - i will just be spinning ONE wheel : ) and i am fine with this : )

i need to throw some money at suspension and brakes.

jim

Perhaps someone with a little more knowlege can chime in, but it is my understanding that the "inverted" adapter plate is different than the "non-inverted" adapter plate due to the 930 bolt pattern not being symmetrically oriented about the horizontal (or vertical) plane when looking at the bellhousing (the bolt pattern is slightly rotated). Anyone?

Andys

[/quote]

Perhaps someone with a little more knowlege can chime in, but it is my understanding that the "inverted" adapter plate is different than the "non-inverted" adapter plate due to the 930 bolt pattern not being symmetrically oriented about the horizontal (or vertical) plane when looking at the bellhousing (the bolt pattern is slightly rotated). Anyone?

Andys
[/quote]

I have acquired a little bit more knowledge on this by emailing KEP. Turns out my used adaptor plate is not LS specific and doesn't 'have 4 studs, just 2 like a conventional SBC. What KEP does with these is "put in metal inserts" ie time-serts in the bottom holes for studs. I've ordered the stuff to do this. They also emailed they can invert a standard adaptor by the insert method as well.
You are correct the transmissions are not symmetrical, it appears the top two holes are about 3/8" closer together (sorry I didn't have my metric framing squares handy but I'm guessing 10mm).

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For anyone curious, who doesn't know, the side shifter 930 uses a Vellios adapter.

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