Follow me along as I venture into type 4 hell as a newbie to VW's!
This thread will show how a V8 guy does a 4 cylinder





Okay guys, pulled the engine out last weekend, and today project was disassembling it. I knew it had a knock, and it was super oily, but found out that it had gotten worse that I thought, and had actualy spun a bearing, with another connecting rod getting close to it.

Damage report:
-The crank is a little tweeked, and should be able to be ground to get rid of any evidence of the connecting rod slamming down upon the journal.
-1 cylinder has been scored terribly with 1-2 mm scratches in it. I'm hoping that the KB oversized pistons are big enough to compensate for the scoring to be taken out
-lots of tiny bits of bearing EVERYWHERE!

The good:
-valve train is in good condition
-cases have NO marring on them
-cam looks good
-connecting rods are perfect

Other than that, it's just goint to be money to get new parts and take the crank in to be ground and possibly rebalanced and tweeked back to alignment.

And now for some pictures.......




And here's that god awful FI system.....

While you are in there... spend the $$ for a new cam and lifters. In the grand scheme of how much you will spend, it will be money well spent.

Do your homework.

The biggest mistakes we see come from guys with extensive experience of other engines and trying to apply this experience to the TIV engine.

My best advice would be to forget everything you know about V8s except the 4 strokes of the engine as these are the only characteristics they share.

...and I see a crack in one of your heads from here. (seriously) and your thermostat is blown and should be replaced.. Remove those sodium filled exhaust valves and replace them with quality stainless steel items.

I haven't seen a "perfect" stock cam come from a TIV engine in the past 15 years.. Post pics of it and DO NOT RE-USE IT! the cam is the second part installed into the engine and the most critical wear item of a TIV engine. If the cam goes south it's the second to last part you'll remove and replace and a full tear down is required. re-using a cam is like a very nasty game of Russian Roulette.

Read for at least 3 months before you buy the first part and do your home work, I have to help guys out of situations on a weekly basis because of poor decisions during the component selection processes and many of them spend double what the cost of one of my kits cost and they still don't have matched components.

Don't buy a single part until you have measured every single part n that engine and have come up with a map of the project.

I don't want to come across as abrasive, I just want to get the point across on this topic...

With this engine, trying to save a dollar is the fastest way to spend three.

Thanks for the info. My plan was to get a WebCam, and not use this one, as I am looking for just a mild improvement over stock. Can you really see a head crack from that picture? Other than the valves they looked fine to me, but then again, I'm new to air-cooled parts. Tell me where you think it's at and I'll get a better picture. So I seem to be understanding that this could cost upwards of 3-4k to get it running?
Here's the parts I've come up with so far Jake:
-KB pistons from your website
-WebCam (not sure how aggressive to go for the street to allow me to run Webers)


As you can see the list is short.....any advise from you is very appreciated!

Jake could tell you way better than I, but, at a minimum:

-main bearings
-rod bearings
-cam bearings
-gasket set
-pushrod tube seals
-oil seal
-rear main seal
-timing gear for the cam
-cam plug
-oil galley plugs
-lifters
-valves
-valve springs
-retainers
-machine work on the heads, crank and rods

My list is longer than this, but I think this pretty much covers the essentials.

Yes. I do see a crack in those heads, even though they are dirty. I might be wrong, but thus far I have a 100% accuracy rate for picking out cracked chambers here on the forums. Clean them up and bead blast them and then let me look at those pics.

If you wanted a comprehensive list of whats needed the list of components that come with my engine kits can be referenced because I feel these are the minimum components that need to be used to properly "rebuild" one of these engines today, some 32 years after the last 914 engine was made new.

If you do the job correctly there isn't a lot of parts that you'll be able to reuse. Look at my engine kit presentations and you'll see how serious I take the reconstruction of these engines.

Okay guys.....everything is entirely apart in the engine.
I'll try to keep working this weekend even without any parts. Then again, the engine bay needs to be cleaned....

So, I know I'm beating the dead donkey with this question, but can the camshaft be reused at all, even with new lifters? I'm in awe that a newer camshaft (Sneider I h=think you said?) would fatigue so terribly that it couldn't be reused...I just don't get that. Yes, I need a new crank, yes I need new cylinders and pistons, and yes I need to rebuild the heads.....but the cam seems like it's fine. I plan on taking it to the VW performance shop 10 minutes away and see what they think.

Work will continue this weekend, but just thought I'd put this out there.

It's not fatigue, it's wear. The cam lobes and lifters will develop a wear pattern, and if you swap the lifters around, you're rolling the dice as to whether the wear patterns will be compatible or destructive. I would think that with a new set of lifters, you'd be okay, but...

...an aftermarket cam is one of the big steps that you can take to increase performance. If money is tight, shop around. I got an unused Web #163 for $72.

Possible cracks...

Okay, well I got the heads guoted for $600 for a full rebuild. $200 for a used reground cam and $250 for the honing of my cylinders to 96mm with KB pistons.

This is actually looking do-able for under $3k.

BTW: those are not cracks....the cylinder heads have so much carbon build up that some of it cracked away, leaving the impression of a crack in the aluminum.

I'll bet you 50 bucks there is a crack in at least one of the chambers or exhaust ports in each head. If they haven't been found you haven't looked hard enough or you haven't inspected the heads at above room temperature where cracks really start to open up. Does your rebuilder include valve seats in that price? If not the heads aren't fully rebuilt !

200 for a used reground cam is not a good deal, maybe 50 bucks would be or maybe 75! I charge less than that for my new cams! IF the cam is reground but isn't re heat treated you can expect failures since the stock heat treat only penetrates about .020 into the cam blank. When you regrind the cam you also MUST use a stock reground lifter which also must be re heat treated and reground with the proper crown radii to match the lobe taper of the camshaft.

I spent 2 years and over 20K bucks to create wear solutions for cams and lifers- this is THE most critical aspect of the TIV engine undoubtedly.

250.00 for opening those cylinders is also not a good deal, when I offered the service I did it for less than that, its only worth 180.00 at max. Does your machine shop have a torque plate to bore the cylinders under load? if not they'll destroy the cylinders as the dimensions will change under torque loads.

Remember- trying to save a buck is the fastest way to spend 3.

What good is doing this for under 3K if you have to spend another 2K to repair the mistakes that can be made if this is done at anything less than comprehensively?

Oh dangit.....sorry guys. I was so focused on finding more information about camshafts, that I made a typo.....$200 was for a reground CRANK. dangit

And honestly Raby, I'm unaware if these are the actual prices.....? My dad talked to him and he has the worst repeating information skills out there. I know I'm gonna have to call the guy myself to get the actual prices and/or information on what all he thinks should be done.

Thats more like it, BUT 200 is even steep for a reground crank, unless your core is trashed. Most cranks don't need more than a repolish unless they have seen a bearing failure.

This crank is TOAST I believe. It saw a bearing failure (one bearing went, and another was getting ready to! It was run for that long with a knock), rather severe, and the crank is tweeked . Sadly I don't see how it could be reground back to specs.

Man, going over prices and such, and doing more and more homework, I'm starting to hate TIV'S
Just kidding...........to a certain extent.

Maybe I'll do a Suby or SBC conversion....I'm sure you love me for doing that would you Raby?





On a more serious note, I may be looking into a -6 conversion. I can get a rather nice 2.0l -6 out of a 911 in return for a SBC 327 from a good friend. In theory I'd be getting this engine for free as the 327 is just sitting and I have no empty engine bays for it......(minus the 914..... )I have the plans and drawings to make fibre glass engine tin, and would only really have to fork out $375 for an engine mount and the other sums of $$$ that would go along with getting one hooked up (exhaust, oil and electrical)

Any ideas on this type of conversion guys, because I'm honestly scared of rebuilding this 2.0l TIV and spending WAY more money than I initially expected, where I pretty much have a checklist of conversion bits and pieces rather than a list on how to build a working TIV!

A 2.0L out of a 911 is going to be 39 years old. What's the condition because if you think a Type 4 is expensive to rebuild correctly, a six is almost double the price. Then, there's the conversion parts aside from the motor that add up to roughly $4,000 for new. You obviously could get conversion parts cheaper if you waited for some good deals. But, with the R@D that Raby's done, I see no reason to convert to a 2.0L six. He offers more HP and torque across the full RPM spectrum for less than a six conversion.The horse power may push around 130 with the engine your suggesting. This of coarse is just my opinion. Eric

The oil tank for a /6 is $1k. Carbs? Exhaust? Sounds cheap up front, but you'll get in deep quick. Plus, a 2.0 /6 at it's best won't give you much over a good 2056, and it weighs more.

I went through the engine decision, and decided on the type 4. Conversions are tempting, and impressive if done well... but they cost $$$ to do well. If your budget is tight, stick with the type 4 rebuild and shop around for parts. Deals are out there if you are patient and persistent. That's what I'm doing. So far, I've spent $258.71 and saved $761.79 over what the parts would have cost from retail sources.

If your crank is shot, find a core engine. You can get a 1.7 core for less than $100, and build a nice 1911 out of it with your 2.0 heads. Or, find a 2.0 core... they are out there for $300-$400.

a 1911 would really be a great fun engine, short stroke/big bore high rev motor.
if your going to go carbs raby would have a really good cam set up that would make a screamer motor. i think he had some kind of kit or concept of a 1911 that made really good power. and pretty cheap to.

Okay.....so do I understand you guys right? I can put a 1.7l crank in my case, use the 2.0l heads, get big bore 96mm pistons? Will this work? Because man, I LOVE RPM's!
Kinda like the old trans am mustangs that ran 302's and 289's.....short stroke, decent size piston =8-9k RPM.
How much could a 1.7 crank and 96mm pistons take?

Honestly, Raby has me scared straight that my heads are scrap.......... so.......that outcome will wether or not the VW guy can tell if something is wrong with them.

What kind of cam would you recomend for 40IDF webers Jake?
I think my sneider cam will have to be left behind on this build....

Thanks for the realization on a -6 conversion guys

They have cracks. They all do. They can be repaired.

And yes, a 1.7 crank with 96mm jugs gives you a 1911.

Nope- I no longer give a damn if people want to bastardize their vehicle.

What matters most to me is that you do not experience a TIV engine failure and if that means that you don't build a TIV then so be it.

Go ahead and chop up the car and add what ever engine you want. You can sell all your TIV engine components to a Type 1, 356 or 912 convert that will appreciate them for the superiority they have.

Chop that bitch up and have a blast!

Dude you are all over the map
Its good you are asking questions but pick a direction and get focused.
Youve got some good advice already, and it seems like $$'s are an issue
so If I were you I steer clear of an swap/conversion.
If you need a new/used crank PM me Ill get one in you hands for cheap.
If it were me I go 1911. in fact I have I used 2.0 heads, induction and
exhaust and it was a GREAT motor
I say was because I sold it in a car earlier this summer

Kinda miss that car.

Yeah, I am all over the place.
Right now, and taking Jake's advise and doing my homework intensly by asking as many questions as I can. But, right now, I'm slowly recieving all the parts I need to redo the rear-trailing arms and brakes, so that's what I'm working on currently while the engine parts sit per-say.

Maybe I'll just ask questions within this one topic then?

I may have to take you up on that offer on your 2.0l crank. If the guy at the VW/Porsche shop doesn't have one for the right price, we'll talk

My dad wants me to go with just a stock 2.0l.....keep it mostly stock. The only high performance bits I plan to put in is 96mm KB pistons and a new cam to allow for dual 40 webers.

I'll put my budget this way for you guys........I'm a 15 yr old kid with $1k in the bank. I'm starting to work at a job, but funds are incredibly tight for me.

Another, cheaper, option would be to find a plug-and-play engine. There's a guy in Seattle selling a complete 1.8 and transmission for $1K in the classifieds here. That's a good deal.

Then you can work towards the engine that you want and still have a running car in the meantime. After the swap, you can sell the runner.

Hell, I'm thinking about buying Nate's engine...

I went through a similar though process and ultimately rebuilt a 1.8 to 1911. Just got the carbs sorted over the last couple weeks and I love. It turned my tired 914 into a sports car. The big ticket items were the carbs, heads and P&C's - which came to over $2k. Most of the rest was noise. Great project with good results!

No useful content here.......Just soaking it all in

Good Luck no matter which way you go,
you really have so much time at 15..slow down

JKP

Haha.....yeah, one year.
Everyone at school hates me.....a Porsche (Porsh to them ) as a first car doesn't sit well with the kids driving honda civics....They don't need to know that it's currently all apart!

And I had a feeling that you'd get my sarcasm Jake! I really think that the guy I've found, Adrian, can do a good job.

BTW: I did find a crack in the heads Jake, the Bosses where the heads bolt on to the cylinders have perimeter cracks.




Even though I have 1 year to drive, I have until Feb. 28 until I get my permit........It should be done by then hopefully.





So more questions that put me "all over the place on this build"
-The speaker covers are in great shape, but for some reason the PO put that no-slip rubber weave that goes under throw rugs on top of the covers. He used 3M spray I think, and it came off very easy. However, it left a ton of sticky residue on the plastic.
What can I use to take the adhesive off without ruining the plastic? I was thinking Acetone, but I fear it would melt the plastic. Any ideas?

-Anyone know where I can get a used Kerry Hunter header? I'm at a loss for finding a header that's not sold out!

You can try Goo-Gone, it wont harm the plastic and should take off the adhesive

Okay guys. got some work done this weekend, but no pics.....

Grit blasted the trailing arms, which are now ready for new bushings and some roll bar black paint!
Got valve train, and other asorted parts cleaned up with this really aggresive engine degreaser, man my hands are dry!

And also took all my parts for a quote from my engine guy, and decided just to leave them with him for the work!

-Heads ($375 each head)
-connecting rods ($150)
-Crank 2.0l ($200. new crank completely)
-New pistons and cylinders, stock size ($295)
-Gasket set ($100 i believe?)

Now I need new a cam and lifters (WebCam from Raby) and Webers. (dual 40's)

So, my estimated price is $1,495 minus camshaft and webers!
+ what, $180 for cam, and $700 for webers?

Wow.....$2,375 is a complete guestimate. How much for lifters Jake?

Then it's all just time until I can drive

Then it's exhaust....I guess since it's a stock 2.0l I don't need a header, but what's a good sounding muffler that's fairly loud? I like'em loud!

UPDATE:

Well, got the fan housing and case halves cleaned up and degreased, and one looks real nice, but the other doesn't........
It seems to have almost like a black liquid ink stain on a lot of the internals, and a lot of the externals. No pictures, and I know this is hard to diagnose without pics, but any ideas what this might be from? If I can't get it off, I'm going to have to go with some sort of engine block paint to make it look pretty.

Also, I should be getting my parts back from Adrian tomorow if all goes to plan. Now I need a good engine building book with torque specs and build information. Any dieas?

I also have another question....
The right rear brake rotor has some serious grinding on it from the caliped going CAPUT. What's the minimul thickness for these rotors? I plan on rebuilding both calipers, but I'm currently looking at new rotors, just because The gouges are pretty deep.

So, If I get the parts back tomorow, I'll post pics.....But man, I'm impressed that he said it would only be a week.....guess he doesn't have much work when the off-road season is not in!

I don't know what the black stains are, but don't paint the block. It will be covered with cooling tin and other parts, anyway. Paint the sheet metal and the engine will look nice.

Do you have a Haynes manual? I've used the heck out of mine. It probably has all the technical info you need. Also, buy Jake's Type IV rebuild video. It contains a step-by-step tear down and rebuild and a lot of technical advice.

Maybe someone else can provide advice about the brake questions. I had my calipers rebuilt by Eric Shea, who advertises his services in the Member Vendor area.

Also, camshaft and lifters should be purchased in a matched set for best results.

Best of luck with your rebuild. Keep posting your progress and questions.

Okay, after a kinda hard week.....I have more progress but no pictures...sorry guys.

I cleaned up the engine bay and the wiring harness, while cutting through enough oil to run the city of Vista for about 3 months..... Sadly, there is quite a lot of surface rust and corrosion in the heel holes. Figure I might just grit blast that, and POR-15 it. I also need a new engine seel.....I think an order from 914rubber.com is in order.

Grit blasted and walnut shell blasted a few bit and pieces, including the engine halves...it really is stained, as well as the fan housing. However, I'm looking into how expensive it would cost to do a 911 fan conversion? I can get a 4 cylinder FB shroud for a 911 fan for next to nothing, but what else does it take, other than a fan? If I do this, do I still need all the other engine tin?
Sadly, I don't have a Haynes manual, but something tells me I should get one

My engine guy took a vacation for Thanksgiving, so I won't have that stuff back for till next week Which should leave me time to work on finishing up the engine bay nice and clean, of course, after I get some POR-15.

I plan on getting EMPI carbs, and just work on the manifolds...(My dad's a decent fabricator, so we'll see if they've improved casting.) and see if I can make something to make the linkage fit tighter.

Other than that. work is slowly progressing, but I can't do much as I'm supposed to go camping....in this weather...not fun

Oh, what an end to a weekend! Decided to buy another 914. a '74 2.0l parts car. Really rough body, but I assume I will have a a pretty good turn-around for the $350 I'm paying for it, plus a really nice looking case. Plus I'm going back to 4-lug spindles, to go along with original Fuchs, along with a spare tire. And now for the pics. Be warned, it's not pretty, but it has plenty of useable parts.

BTW: anyone need a tub that has a good amount work and sheet metal repair?







So I pick it up Tuesday, and I'll have better pics then, but this is just what he sent me.....

Okay, so here are the new Mahle jugs and piston set....They are 94mm 2.0 litre pistons, but thos dishes are huge! These are bus pistons aren't they? The pistons I pulled out had a waaayyyy smaller dish in them!!! and for $295 too! Kind of a pisser, because I really don't want to have to send them back, and try and find different ones. Goddamnit.



And here's some more pics of the parts car......pretty rough, but hey, I got an un-abused case and other things from it!



And here's the newly redone cylinder heads and reconditioned rods. Overall, these turned out real nice with any cracks welded, and SS valves, along with whatever else goes into completely overhauling cylinder heads...


So overall, I'm pretty happy with the results. Here's the list of what all I got.
Cylinder head job-$750
connecting rods (including a new core)-$150
reground 2.0l crank- $200
full bearing set- $125
gaskets and seals (EMPI labeled thes Elring gaskets as 2.0 l when the Elring packaging says 1.8....damn, their stupid.......gonna call him and ask or correct 2.0l ones) -$100
new jugs and pistons-$295


Really my only beefs are those pistons and EMPI's shitty packaging, but what should I do about the pistons? I want it to run fine on cheap or mid-grade gas as a daily driver, but man, it's gonna have super low compression ratio with those dishes if I stay with them! And for the money that I paid, I'm better get what I want! lol

I stand corrected. just talked to my engine guy, and he said that it will actually be running 8.1:1 compression and is 1984 cc's....so it's all good there, because of the chamber work he did! woohoo!
I guess his supplyer no longer sells the gaskets, but they're the same minues the intake gaskets, which come new with a good weber kit!

Okay, I've not posted here in a while!
The engine is almost done!
All I need is the trans-axle cleaned up, and the engine bay painted (including wiring harness wrapped in racing wire wrap) and it's ready to drop in!

Thanks for all the help guys!

wow... that Type 4 looks clean

well shoot! I've not posted in a long time!
Progress is moving...finally.. I hate schoolll

Anyways, the motor is complete minus the ignition coil, and now is just waiting for teh engine bay and suspension to be done so I can pull it through.

The roll hoop is all fit and cut, so now I just need to finish the suspension so someone can weld it..

I also need to figure out what to do on the trailing arm bushings..STILL!