I see recently that a 1939 Talbot-Lago went for $4,847,000. Yes there were only a handful (less than 30) made, yes, the Talbot marque is much revered, yes, the car has racing history, and yes, it's a "survivor". But "no interior door trim", "leather seat stiff and cracked", "most instruments and controls fitted", "oxidized and chipped paint applied by brush in places" , and "there are crudely welded metal pieces..."

The reason for this preamble is to determine at what point a "survivor" needs to be restored and refinished, as opposed to leaving it alone and preseving its "patina", if a 914 can have such a thing.

It's been said that a car is original just once, and once it's redone, the direct link to its origins is lost forever, even if it's only a sympathetic repaint.

My '70/4, repainted by the only previous owner in 1973 after a disasterous hail storm, lost its originality staus then. Though the paint held up surprisingly well over the subsequent 30+ years, rust was becoming ever more evident on the lower extremities of the front fenders, around the door handles and the rollbar area. Not quite so evident to the casual observer, rust had also taken its toll in the usual 914 problem spots (hell hole, floor pan). No chance at preservation or patina with my car

I'd live with paint chips on the nose (proud evidence of road use), even door dings left by careless motorists (my blood runs hot at such wanton disregard), and moderately faded/scratched/crazed exterior paint would not, by itself, prompt me to repaint and restore. But blistering, rotting, eroding, corroding sheetmetal only hints at what evil deterioration lies beneath painted surfaces.

So, if it's rusted, I'd cut it out and refinish and repaint. If the metal was solid, straight and intact, I'd do all I could to keep the paint intact, preserving the originality and maintaining the "patina".

Finally, if anyone has a /4 or /6 with the aforementioned "patina", I'd like to see some photos and history. Thanks.


Paul

I believe the contrast here is that 914s were built as fun cars, never exotics and never really sold as speed machines. They were often purchased by youthful males who, even as proud and protective owners, were never particularly sensitive to or aware of the car's primary nemesis - rust.

Due to the manufacturing techniques used (no galvanized metal, void box fillers which hold moisture internally, battery placement, and simple design flaws) rust is a threat to a 914's long term survival. It would be difficult to find an example that survived its first 10-15 years of life without having rust damage, the control of which should be a preservationist primary concern, particularly in reference to the rust you can't see.

In the 90's particularly, there were few people sufficiently devoted to the 914 to maintain one in pristine condition and allow it to develop an untouched original "patina". If indeed their where such an example, my interest for the car would remain more in the condition of its framework than in its untouched paint.

Interesting analysis on both of your parts regarding the issues facing our cars.

I am also a true believer in originality and am somewhat repulsed at what one can do to sheetmetal with enough time, patience, torches, and cutting wheels.

If it can all be used to the effect of preserving an historical aspect to a living , viable, piece of automotive genius, then all is well. But if these tools are used the wrong way, the result is a loss to the community of true believers. Vandalism is the end result. Desecration is the enduring effort. And we are all left with an emotional turmoil to deal with.

I had an original patina 2.0 that had too many garage bumps and bruises, and far too many door dings from the same apparent abuser. READ : Previous owner / assaulter.
It was a dry western car, zero rust, and no Hell - hole problems. It had one broken rear trunk hinge, and needed a cleanup that would have never resulted in a car that I would have been happy with. The finish was all original and had survived over 20 years and 60,000 miles. It required a complete block sanding and removal of much of the original paint to bring the issues of door dings to an end. The areas of surface wear on both lids from a constant sliding of boxes and grocery sacks across the paint, could have been possibly saved and wet sanded back to its original luster, but the choice was made to do a total repaint to bring all surfaces into a harmonious lustre. It was worth it. The 5 coats of yellow and 4 coats of clear brought it into the perfect light it deserves to shine in. Done in 95, it still shows as a very good to excellent show finish. Of course it has traveled less than 1500 miles since then, but what a joy those have been !

Yes, they are only original once. But, what a joy to see the look of admirers faces, reflected in a near perfect finish on a warm , sunny day. Surrounded by the Faithful , and their beautiful little cars from the land of the Mysterious air-coolers, a once original teener wears a new suit of clothes. Happy to be once again looking nearly as he did the day he was born.

Agree!

Besides, where does "originality" end? Replacement of rotted vacuum hoses, for example? - even if replaced with original parts, they aren't original to the car. There are hundreds of other examples, most of which are maintenance related also.

4 coats of clearcoat on a yellow car......? Well, it may not be original paint technique, but then again, those hoses I mentioned earlier probably aren't made to the original manufacturing techniques either. So, when something is NLA as a replacement part by the Factory (yet a Factory acceptable part is officially designated), does that mean originality suffers. Ex: the original waffle-type battery cover. Deemed NG in the mid-70's & replaced by a Factory acceptable, cobbled up Audi cover as part of a recall campaign. Since the Factory "authorized" this replacement part, does that make it unoriginal? Would we be more pure to not accept a safety-related item replacement?

Patina be damned! Except in the most rare cases, "maintenance" must be performed to keep the car from the salvage yard. But (my belief only), "maintenance should be to the highest level of originality as possible, with some degree of lattitude towards contemporary materials, if not available from the Factory.

MHO

With both of the replies above..Although...Read some of the 356 stories where they were raised from the dead with only a few fenders and partial longs attached...then went on to get 100,00$ and 1rst place awards or better....
with even a non matching engine #...
Point is 'Rust Never Sleeps.....' at some time in the vehicles life...paint..an interior..
general maint. and repair/replacement of parts is / will be needed...
>>>Judges look at time effort and $$$$ that was put into a vehicle to save it OR
bring it back to new/showroom...and as ORIGINAL as was new....
They do like the 'Patina' type Original cars.....But a 'Worn' car has less value
than the car with 'Bling'......
IF a car is deserving of a clean n wax and is REALLY well preserved,
by all means leave as is........BUT what a waste not to drive it...
Face it..if you had a 914 Factory GT..You would just have to drive it..!!

Sorry Pat...I guess I was typing to submit my 2 cents above....when you got yourz in..But we are on the same page.....

I purchased a one-owner '70 last summer. It has patina with a capital "P". I have only one pic at the moment and it doesn't show much. The car was shipped to the Panama Canal Zone in the early 70's when the owner was a teacher in a US school. He and his wife then drove it through Central America and Mexico to Texas. Several 1974 "tourista" stickers remain on the glass. It has never been repainted. There are multiple dings and the trunk lid has the too common depressions from improper closing. Both bumpers (no appearance group on this car) have been hand repainted and are very ugly. I am removing the period correct but aftermarket Porsche side stripe and unfortunately some paint comes with it, which I will touch up by hand. I have found a proper "porthole" rear valance and I intend to repaint both valances and the rockers. I will also properly respray both bumpers. The wheels will also be repainted. The driver seat requires some repair to the outer bolster. When done I hope much patina will remain.
Click to view attachment

But ..but.. but.. if a car is restored today, using todays materials, todays attention to detail ( given the proper restorer ) using todays components doesn't that make it a better car then it origianlly was ?

What is the big deal with " patina " anyways? A kubelwagen went through WW2 and has bullet holes. Cool I'd leave it like that. That is REAL history. Another Kubel lived its life on the streets of Amsterdam, got shipped to Sao Paolo, then ended up in the U.S. It is now tired and haggard, full of dents and dings BUT IT HAS IT'S ORIGINAL PAINT !!!.... woo fuching hoo. It looks like poo. But it has a story to tell....Um no it doesn't. It's owners do. The Kubel needs to be restored otherwise your driving a beat P.O.S. that has real value and unless restored will continue to deteriorate.



Then again, what do I know? I'm the prick that powder coats his suspension components

And, this is exactly why you will rot in hell! That isn't an upgrade on "original" finishes! In fact, it's a detriment.

Doesn't come close to the original finish. Doesn't take stones well (chip versus a booger). Difficult to remove to get a "proper" finish.

Geez! Haven't you guys ever heard of primer & paint?

Sorry, you KNOW this is a sore point with me. No excuse for using it - period!


I KNOW Scotty B is trying to get me "animated", and it won't be difficult. But he'll have to do better!

The whole idea of "restoration" vs "preservation" is the key and its a subject of great discussion among the serious collectors. Many a collector regrets over restoring a car. Yes, shiny and better than showroom appeal to some. To others, not so much.

Does a 914 with "patina" look nice now? subjective.. but to me it is the more interesting car, assuming it still works as it should. In another 20 years, yes, a truly "original" 914 with patina trumps an over restored, only the VIN plate was original example.

I agree with about "over restoring" a car - any car. But, the fact is - 40+ year old cars are going to need refurbishing. And, you CAN refurbish a 914 to it's original finish.

When I had mine redone (1979), I told the bodyshop owner to refinish the car to the correct level of orange peel that came on a 914. When he asked how, I told him NOT to repaint the engine lid, but to use it as a guide for the finish of the rest of the car. It came out perfect! 30 years later, the finish is somewhat slicker than it should be, after 30 years of polishing, but it all still matches. Great job & if anyone in the Cincy area wants to know who did he job PM me - he's still doing it!
Pat

Patina says to me :

1: I can't afford to make my car nice but I love it anyway

2: My shocks are shot

3: My braking system is 35 years old

4: I probably have rust in places you'd be ashamed to show your wife

5: My seals all leak

6: I have potato chip crumbs in my bed

7: I have potato chip crumbs in my pants

8: I have empty PBR cans in my recycle bin

9: My recycle bin has been overflowing for a couple years. I'll empty it soon enough

10: My wife left me and her sister won't love me anymore

11: Jay Leno would probably buy my car

12: Barett Jackson would LOVE the originality of my car

13: Where's the closest meth dealer ?

14: I bolted my tach through the top pad and it works

15: SKYNARD !!!

16: FORD !!!

17: EARNHARDT !!!!!!!!!

18: Powder coating chips easier then paint does