Event: 2009 914 Shootout
Venue: Hampton Mills, Packwood WA
Date: August 8-9,2009

Come one come all! We will be welcoming many NWPCA guys as well as any Norcal guys as wanna come and try us on our own turf. My glove slaps your face!

It will be a 2 day combined event between the Oregon Region PCA and the Northwest Region PCA and we are expecting around 120-150cars. As last year, we will piggyback the 914 Shootout onto the PCA events.

Packwood Washington is located at the base of Mt. Rainer. You can find all the information you need to know on : http://www.destinationpackwood.com/index.cfm

This is the same location that the SCCA National Tour is held every year. It features an expansive field of asphalt and a very large building that will hold upwards of 200cars and trailers. It is a very nice place to visit with many outdoor things to do and antique shops to visit for the SO and kids.

As for lodging, we will have to check with Hampton Lumber Mills if we will be allowed to camp onsite. For those more civilized folks, there are plenty of hotel/motel/cabin options available, again check the above web site.

Here is picture of the venue, it is huge and flat!

Click to view attachment

Here are some of links to some National event runs and a guy some of you may know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcS-gXJ-jgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlFJK8bzhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYtST_N5Flc

Hope to see many of you this coming August. We are planning catered food, possibly a band on Saturday night...if we will pay them....could be a great party!
Let's get some committments and then see how much fun we can have.
More to come.....

Sweet, I will be there. Is Tim going to design a course? I love his course designs and he is a 914 owner to boot I will be seeing him tomorrow at out local PCA autocross.

Looking forward to it Gary

Guy in the second vid doesnt appear to be wearing a seat belt ??? ...I know I`ll be there for the PNWPCA event

Jon maybe you and Mr JP cant settle your smack down there... lol

Third video JP?

Second video was cool but he looked like a mad man .

Oh we will. Like Isaid, I just want to be within a second of him. Now be clear on this JP... it is you and NOT Britian I am talking about. Car owner VS car owner. Matt, The RS America driver from last year that was close to Britian, will be co-driving my car with me this year. I am sure he will be very close to Britian as he is one of the more talented drivers I have seen and he is generally a second faster than me .

I'm about 3 seconds slower than Brit on a big Packwood course, so you have a shot...but bring your A game......most of the CA guys at the last Shoot Out didn't & look at what happened. I'm sure they won't make that mistake again.
So, if you're setting your sights on me, you're aiming low.

Sure would be fun to trailer up there and run the event. Who knows, maybe the car will be sorted by that time, given alignment of the planets and all that stuff.

I didn't believe Larry Sharp when he said it would take a ton of time to get my car sorted - like pluck you magic twanger froggie.....

http://michelesworld.net/dmm/frog/gremlin/plunk.htm

"Hi ya, kids, hi ya, hi ya"
Ya gotta be old to remember that line.

Yes, "sorting" takes time."Re-sorting" takes almost as long after a winter project.
When you've been dicking with the same car for years, it gets easier tho.....you find out A)what works, B)what don't & C)how to go about it. You also start running out of winter projects. Starting fresh is something I'd just as soon not do again.

By the time the Shoot Out rolls around, you should be ready as you're gonna get for the year....or rethink your ABCs.

The guy in the 2nd vid was Scott Frazer in his CSP Miata outta Nor Cal.......mad man?
That was his first pass and it was the quickest CSP run of the day by about a second.... cept for his last run... if memory serves.....this is in a class usually won by hundredths.
Yes, the NW CSP big dogs were there. I should be so mad.
(edit)
OK, a half second

C Street Prepared Drivers: 8 Trophies: 3
T 1 99 Scott Fraser 1991 Mazda Miata Blue Hoosier 53.317 54.115 53.547 107.204
[199] , 54.446 53.887 57.932(2)
T 2 199 Tom Kubo 1991 Mazda Miata Blu Hoosier 55.343 54.468 54.008 108.265
[99] Folsom, CA San Franci 54.819 56.829(1) 54.257 (1.061)
T 3 190 Ron Bauer 2007 Mazda MX-5 Blu Kumho 58.263(2) 54.468 54.251 108.356
[90] Renton, WA Kumho, Mazmart, Fordahl Northwest 55.748 54.372 54.105 (0.091)
4 90 Jim Daniels 2007 Mazda MX-5 Blu Kumho 55.434 54.795 54.836 109.219
[190] Gladstone, OR Oregon Reg DNF 54.846 54.424 (0.863)

Na, ya gotta be old if you sat around on Sunday nights listening to "The Shadow" before they had TV!


PS

The motor is now back together with dual valve springs and titanium retainers. Thanks to Len Hoffman who did the work on the heads and is a great guy on any project.

We are having to put 7mm lash caps on as there was no clearance between the Pauter rockers and the (new) titanium retainers, i.e., the titanium retainers are thicker than steel. When I receive the caps (80thousands) we might have to mill off a bit after we do a test fit. Hopefully the Manley caps are heat treated sufficiently to allow us to take off a bit; got to check that with them.

We don't want to alter the Pauter rocker ratio to much.

Should be interesting when we confirm/alter the fuel map on the Link ECU after 6200 RPM and see what we have.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man? The Shadow knows."
BTDT.

Think this should be posted in the garage as well? I think more people would see it and plan on going if it was .

I posted the topic back in mid January......few replies.
I like it here, less "noise"..... however, you have a computer, feel free.

I'll wait a little while before I do then. It is more your guys deal as I understand it. I talked with Tim about it yesterday at the AX and he said there is much planning to do but he is very excited about it as well and believes it should be a great event. I believe Leeds is going to be down there but not too sure and I talked with Greg and he said he will try. He just isn't sure how his race schedule is at the moment.

This event, to me, is much bigger than any WCR or other type of 914 event as autocrossing is the reason I got into 914s.

Jon,

Good times yesterday Jon. The car felt pretty good, I was told by quite a few people that I was lifting the inside front wheel alot, "like three inches". Its a little different driving a car that really has more grip than power, maybe we should change that. hmm, should I build a 4 or finish the 2.8-6 and start the conversion.......


Kyle

Oh, yeah. Jon and JP, I have autoxed some pretty fast cars, but if your cars are as fast or faster than Eric Fry's 914-6...wow. I road in it yesterday and with a stock 2.7 runing carbs with stock fuel injected cams that car felt real quick. Makes me wonder what a well built 2.4-2.7 would feel like.

Yeaterday was ablast. I can't wait to see how my car runs and how it compairs to Erics. It was a little hairy driving Matts car ith one of the tires on cords but still fun as always. Your car was looking very good out there Kyle.

Dang i wish i would have been there now ...Kyle what size rear springs you running..bigger would help that issue..Imo i think you should pump up the four ,,kind of a plug `n play deal ....cost saver too

I want to say that they are 140lb rear springs but I can't remember. Basically, I bought them used on Koni reds(hydraulic but adjustable) off of ebay just to get the car back on the road a few years ago(rears were shot). I knew that they looked a little thicker but can't remember exactly what they were.

I think that I am going to go with a bigger front bar(I have a 3/4" speedway bar, may go up to 1"), 21mm front torsions, 200lb rear springs and I may change shocks as well(koni yellows or maybe revalved and shortened bilsteins), no rear bar. This is not going to be a autox only car but I do like my cars to be on the edge of streetable.

Kyle

Nuthin' wrong with lifting the inside front some.....as long as the sumbitch goes where you point it. This is something that happens when you have (or need) suspension that actually has compliance & travel.

For a data point, my car is set up with a 22mm front sway bar, 21mm T bars and 275lb rear springs and it's been known to wave at the crowds.

I would imagine you are alot lighter than I am, so your wheel rates are definitely stiffer compared to the weight you are carrying on each corner. I think that I am right around 2030 or so. I was talking to Greg F. awhile back and my thoughts were similar to what he has used in the past. Basically, If you are not going to run a LSD, then you need to gain some roll stiffness to keep the rear tires from lifting and getting inside wheel spin. To do that you need to find the right ratio of bigger front bar and stiffer rear springs that will cause the car to have a slight oversteer and not lift the inside rear tire.

We are going through this testing right now on my buddies Lotus Elise. Even with a limited slip he found a larger front bar helped wheel spin a little without affecting the overall balance.

Fun stuff, Hopefully I will be able to either find a codrive for the 914 shoot out or maybe I will just bring my car down.

Kyle

I found that to keep the inside rear from unloading that 250lb were not enuff, but 275s did the trick.....this was pre-LSD. The sway bar was/is set at half hard which, to my way of thinking, is just right.

The good Mr. Fordahl certainly know his stuff. I do hope he & Leeds come to the SO. I'm not sure is there is much similarity between a 914 & an Elise. The Elise has a modern suspension....not to be confused with the archaic crap....er...stuff on a 914.

Thanks for the tips. I know you have been through this stuff already. I'm sure that the extra 150lbs(six vs 4) that you are carrying over the rear tires is also a factor in finding 275lb springs being just right.

As you know JP, sometimes in autox it doesn't matter how good or bad the suspension design is from the factory cause once you lower the car a couple inches, the bumpsteer and camber curves can go through the roof. There are only 2 ways to fix it, either redesign the suspension with relocated pickup points or do what 90% of us do, raise the rates and lock down the suspension so much that the suspension doesn't travel enough to get into those crazy dynamic camber changes etc. It works well when you run on semi smooth surfaces(Packwood isn't to bad) but can be a bear on anything else.

As for the Elise, it does have a modern suspension but mid engine car characteristics are still similar as he is trying to get rid of some on throttle(mid corner to exit) push which is common trait for almost all stock mid engined cars(914, boxster, mr2 etc). Part of it is just learning to drive a mid engined car which means that you have to learn patience mid corner.... do not apply throttle until the car has rotated!! hahahaha.

Kyle

Well I will do my best to make sure they come. Like I said before, I believe Leeds will be there but Greg is a different story. Hard to know what his race schedule is right now and what races he will go to.

I use all my shock's compression travel down here at PIR's South Pits....about 2.5 inches fron static at the strut tube. I have compensated as much as is possible for both bump & camber. The big thing is to remain off the bump stops.

Talk to Mr. Fordahl about what a Torque Biasing diff does for you when rolling into the throttle in a corner. I asked him about it some time back and can now report that what he said is God's own truth. I do not have a problem with push in that area.

Here's a vid that you may find interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07wW-jT9Szw

Nice vid. Yep, you can't beat a torque biasing diff for an autox only setup, just don't lift a tire.

Kyle

Very cool video JP Hopefully we will get to try eachothers cars out at some point this year as well. That would be fun

[quote name='Solo914' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:22 PM' post='1134674']
[/quote]




As for the Elise, it does have a modern suspension but mid engine car characteristics are still similar as he is trying to get rid of some on throttle(mid corner to exit) push which is common trait for almost all stock mid engined cars(914, boxster, mr2 etc). Part of it is just learning to drive a mid engined car which means that you have to learn patience mid corner.... do not apply throttle until the car has rotated!! hahahaha.
Kyle
[/quote]

Part of the reason for my posting the vid was this statement. Listen & watch all the cars as they go thru the turns.

[quote name='J P Stein' date='Feb 17 2009, 07:59 AM' post='1134877']
[quote name='Solo914' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:22 PM' post='1134674']
[/quote]




As for the Elise, it does have a modern suspension but mid engine car characteristics are still similar as he is trying to get rid of some on throttle(mid corner to exit) push which is common trait for almost all stock mid engined cars(914, boxster, mr2 etc). Part of it is just learning to drive a mid engined car which means that you have to learn patience mid corner.... do not apply throttle until the car has rotated!! hahahaha.
Kyle
[/quote]

Part of the reason for my posting the vid was this statement. Listen & watch all the cars as they go thru the turns.
[/quote]

There were alot of things going on, I couldn't pick out exactly what you were getting at. Maybe its because I haven't had my coffee yet

Kyle

What is the point you are getting at JP? I couldn't tell anything critical from that video other than some guys were faster than others

Or was your point that many of these cars are using throttle all the way through the turn?

Yes, there were a couple cars there that didn't display "throttle on push" iff'n you look & listen.
The most obvious was the mid corner woopsie me & the shitbox did on that first sweeper and the blue ugly hanging out the back end most of the way around the 2nd sweeper.

Okay, I did notice that stuff. I wasn't sure that was what you were pointing out but I caught it none the less.

Cool, I felt that was what you were talking about JP but wasn't sure. Thanks again for the vid.

Kyle

Well, too bad your swiss cheese on wheels ain't street legal no more.
But you did beat me by a good second or two.

Maybe i just take a few days off and enjoy a nice drive up there, play with you guys for a while and then drive back home.

In a 914.
Andy

When we first got this vid a while back I watched it over and over. The thing I noticed most was the RPMs on the different cars at different points on the course. Some cars looked like all wheels were hooked up but a spike in the RPMs indicated something different. Even the faster cars had that spike, but some just looked different. With those, the spike in RPM only happened when it was obvious the rear wasn't hooking.

For my wide body 2.7 I have 22mm TB, 21mm sway and Koni sport yellows with adjustable perches. No TBD. I'm trying to come to a decision on rear spring rate with this setup. What do ya think? Car should weigh in at about 2k.

Oh yea, I have a stock rear sway.

A couple of suggestions/observations Mike: Where ever you start with spring weights (250#?) and adjust from there, an important consideration is how much you intend to lower the car. I started using 10" springs, but later went to 8". You might also need to machine your perches to allow full adjustment to ride height.

Secondly I'd ask around, find someone with a box of springs, borrow them for an an autoX and test different combinations. Take lots of pictures and write down your impressions for later analysis.

Also check out Swift Springs (http://www.swiftsprings.com/products-coilover_springs.html) as they are lighter and contribute to "a noticeably lighter unsprung mass." Supposed to be pretty trick.

Of course changing the brand of spring will likely change the weight requirements.

It's very important to get this part of the suspension puzzle solved / understood.

Thanks, Randal. I was thinking 250 to 275 to start. Larry suggested 300. I like the box-o-springs idea. I guess it will just take some time to figure out. Now, to settle on a starting point. I did machine the perches (or the equivalent) I added a groove lower on the shock so the collar sits at it's lowest point without possibility for bind and got the longer collar for greater adjust ability. I did that when I first got em since I didn't know where the car would sit happy.

Mike:
IMO, 22mm torsion bars are too stiff for a 914 AXer. They complicate your efforts to make the car oversteer. I think you would need 350-400lb rear springs to balance the thing towards oversteer. Shocks also become problematic with high spring rates......forget about off the shelf shocks. At best, revalved shocks would be needed.

The 22mm torsion bars I have are hollow so I believe the effective rate for them is somewhere between what would be 20 and 21.5 solid. At least that's what I remember reading. I think that's why they offer the hollow ones. To make the 22mm hollow have the same rate as the 22mm solid you would need less material, yes. The hollow has a different spring rate due to the 2 surfaces so it gives a quicker rebound with less mass but the compromise is the actual rate is slightly dropped. The fact that it's faster makes the effective rate change in some peoples calculations. But, the actual calculation for rate would be 1129000 multiplied by the outside diameter of the bar to the 4th, minus the inside diameter to the 4th, divided by the arm length squared, multiplied by the effective length of the bar. But, heck... I think the actual rate of my bars would be 20.23 or something like that.

Hmmmmm, maybe 300 springs are not too far off. The car will be heavier than most dedicated AX cars. This means re-valved shox. Can the Koni yellows be re-valved?

EDIT: adjusted calculation for actual rate. bad math.

And, maybe a bit more throttle steering than I'm used to. I was getting used to the setup I had with the 2056. I was able to have a little more grunt in the slower stuff to throw the rear out a hair but not enough in the faster. The 130hp jump should help with that but the challenge will be making it all smooth. Plus, I think it will be nice for the track. I know a dual purpose car will never be ideal for either situation but somewhere in the middle is what I'm looking for, with a lean towards AX.

I believe the yellows can be revalved. You are correct on the hollows having the effective spring rate of a 21 but I have been told the 22 would be like a 20.5 and the 23 would be like a 21.5. I would go the the 275s and see how it feels. With the price of springs it isn't as though getting another pair will kill you (coming from the guy who uses his friends springs ). I am doing the 275s as I know 250s will be fine but could go higher. If I try to 275s and still feel the same way then I can go to 300 but 275 is a good middle to see how it goes. I may just want to go back to the 250s. My car may be closer in weight to your than JP's.

Thanx Jon. Yea, I was doing the calc while you were posting and changed the actual rate when I figured it out.

Sheeesh, now I need to learn what the heck the valveing needs to be for the shox. I don't know anything about that stuff so I'm starting from scratch.

Mike,

You might want to check with Rich Walton. That's where I'm going for my next set of shocks, which will be valved to my car's weight.

You don't need to know valving....you need to know someone that does.

I sent my Bils to Jack at Bilstein West along with car F & R weight, spring weights,
& intended usage. Whatever he did is OK by me.
This was 65 bucks per shock....not cheep, but bout half the price that race shops I priced to do for the same service. It is something that doesn't have to be dealt with immediately since your venue is smooth. The sucker I run on isn't smooth and it's an imperative.

Good to know, guys. Thanks. I'll test it out without it and see what comes of it.

So which Bilsteins are set up for re-valving?

To be honest, I'm not sure about the yellow Koni's, i.e., whether you can re valve them or not.

To the best of my knowledge, all of them.

I heard a rumor that Jack had passed away. Bilstein West is in Poway, CA, IIRC.
The price above is less any parts required. I had 2 buggered up inside shafts on mine set so sent them again for a fix.....inexpensive. These are gas shocks.....a WAG would be that many "shops" send shocks to Bilstein for revalving using their own valving specs rather than Jack's. I have no idea how the shocks are pressurized but suspect the required equiptment is not in most "shops".