I've been wondering about this for a long time and was reminded about it last night as I was flipping through the AA catalog and came across pics of George's blue M-471 GT. It's my understanding that the true factory GT race cars did not have the "M-471" designation, that it was technically the designation for the "GT-look" package that one could order from the factory on a /6...?

I guess at the center of my uncertainty is this: when I see "M-471" I immediately think "not a factory GT", but a factory GT look-a-like...just like the wide body "turbo look" 911s.

Can someone help clear this up for me?

Thanks

edit: forgot to say that adding to the confusion is the verbiage in the AA catalog about the "M-471 GT" and its racing history.

Factory 84 and up carrera's with turbo look the code is ;
491 Turbo look

m471 had GT flairs and wider wheels.
914-6GT were ordered as 914-6R or ren.

my understanding.

GMS were are you ?

The Factory M-471 cars (George's and smg914's) are on the Official GT list

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Even though the 1970 GTs just had a GT kit. The M-471 kit was available as an option later (1971+)

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"Ren." is short for "Rennsport" which is german for racing.
Andy

Thanks for posting that TC, I've never seen that list before.

BUT! The title of that document I think supports what I'm getting at, "914/6 GT & M471 Customer Cars"...it sounds to me like they're two distinct classes of vehicle, no? One a GT, one a GT look-a-like, with "M471" being the designation of the latter only.

Put another way, perhaps more succinctly, I believe this or any factory GT race car is not an M471. I'm wondering if that is correct or not.

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Yes. The m471 Kit and the GT racing kit are two different animals.

Basically, there were 3 different types:

1. Factory build GT racecars
2. GT racecars build by a 3rd party using the factory GT Kit
3. m471 street cars build by a 3rd party using the factory m471 Kit


Andy

you forgot the factory built M-471 !!!!!!

Steve's M-471 is factory built - and there are about 20 more

Gustl

form the factory, you could order 3 different types of wide body cars:

1. the M-471 => GT-look alike 914-6 with standard engine
2. the M-491 (= "914-6 GT") as a track car (like the Marathon GTs)
3. the M-491 (= "914-6 GT") as a rallye car (like the Monte GTs)

Gustl

Why on the invoice I posted is it desinated as 914/6renn. ?

GT was a FIA race class that the cars were built to run in or GT spec.

Or on the invoice it shows gr-4/6R does this mean group 4 (GT)
and the cars is a 914/6R "Rennsport"

I think Reid want s M471 street clarifacation and I am wondering the same about the so called GT cars. Are they really 914/6R's

when the factory built the 914-6 race cars, they were offered as 914-6 R (R stands for Rennsport => race version)

they entered some races in the "GT class", so the crowd called them 914-6 GT

the Porsche race and prototype division always called them 914-6 sport kit (most likely because they took a standard 914-6 off the production line and used the "sport kit" to convert them to a 914-6 R)

there is a rumor that the factory used the 914-6 M-471 as homologation cars, therefore they were called "homologations GTs" or "M-471 GTs"


Gustl

Also I believe that Homologation is the reason Porsche had to make the 400 M-471 kits that were available to dealers. (Which is what I have for my 6 )

T.C.

This thread started off totally mundane and you all have made it very interesting!


Althought I thought I knew what 'homologation' meant, I looked it up (Wolfgang you speak better English that I do! )

Ho*mol`o*ga"tion, n. [Cf. F. homologation.] (Civ. & Scots Law) Confirmation or ratification (as of something otherwise null and void), by a court or a grantor.

In that sense Wolfgang it's not completely clear to me what you mean by that sentence...I think TC gets it too but it's hazy to me. Yes this is all very specific and very technical, but it's gaining that level of understanding (which you guys have) that I'm after, so thanks for continuing go play along if you opt to!

Reid

By the way, what's driving all this is the epiphany I had last night that calling a car an "M-471 GT" is a misnomer, that such a car didn't exist - it's either one or the other. To that end I liked when Wolfgang carefully said, "the 914-6 M-471"...but then the homologation angle threw me, perhaps "M-471 GT" really is a technically valid designation. I'm not just trying to be a nitpicking PITA, even if I'm succeeding.

My wife thanks you all for listening so that she doesn't have to!

The homologation process ratifies (makes legal) the car in a specific form for a specific class of racing. Generally a class will require a certain number of cars to be built in a specific form to qualify for homologation.

The M471 as it applies to the 914/6 is basically a flared fendered body modification and wider wheels with no changes to engine or interior. The M471 option is only a small part of the full GT specification. Most GT's did not have the full GT specification anyway since most builders only added what was required for their class. Instead of the 100 liter tank, the IMSA cars had to use a fuel cell.


The M471 as it applies to the 914/4 is much different.

Back in the late 60s-early 70s, to race in World Endurance races, Manufactorers had to build a certain amount of cars in order to meet the rules of the class. For instance Porsche had to meet the Homologation number in order to race the 917. So the Factory made 25 917s and lined them up for the Officials to see. Most of them were just shells and were made into real racecars later.

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The Same applied to the 914-6GT or Renn. Hence the Factory built up the proper number of GT & M-471GT to meet the rules. The rules changed and the Factory offered the 400 M-471 kits to dealers.

Porsche has always read the rules and used them to their advantage. Jo Hoppen was one of the best using 914-6GT, 911RSR, 934, 935 and the 917-10 to Porsche's advantage.

This philosophy continued into the 90's when the FIA @ LeMans classified Street-Cars. So Porsche took the 962 to Dauer & Schuppan and made "962 Street cars" They then took a street car, made it into a racecar and Won LeMans

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This continued into the GT1 which actually had a 993 front bulkhead.

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The abandoned LMP1 car morphed into the Carrera GT, which in a way became the RS Spyder

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Dave, TC, thanks. I get it now, and Wolfgang's comment makes perfect sense.

So what I'm taking away from all of this is, IF the rumors Wolfgang mentioned are true, "M471 GT" would be an appropriate designation for only those cars which Porsche used to meet the GT class homologation requirements. I would think that if one could prove that their car met this stringent definition it would undoubtedly affect the value of their car, and favorably. Otherwise, "M471" as it applies to a 914/6 should be referred to at most as "GT look" (somewhat similar to the wide body, 491 "turbo look" 911s).

But I digress. What do you all think? I'm sure plenty here are likely to say "who the hell cares?", but I'm genuinely curious what those of you who really know and enjoy these types of details think. AKA "I defer to the experts".

edit: TC, really enjoyed those pics, thanks for posting 'em

I think it is correct to call the Factory M-471 Homologation cars M-471GTs. And they are worth significantly more than a hopped up 914-6.

I would rank Factory GT racecars #1, Customer Built GTs with history #2 and M-471GTs #3 in terms of $ worth.

The problem with the 400 M-471 kits that were available to Dealers is that they sold very few of these. In fact I was told that one Dealer bought most of them at a discount when Porsche was clearing inventory. Then most of the kits were seperated and when bought were privately installed, not Dealer installed. Part of my 471 kit was purchased from an employee of one Porsche Dealer, another part from Brumos. And obviously I'm having a independent shop do my body-work. I don't think that my final product is worth much more than a similar car, but I can prove the 471 bits as original. The exception is the shop that is doing the work has done over 20 sets of GT Flares, so the installation is better than a home job. And I will have a documented 19,000 mile car

T.C.

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Not true, every one was complete, tested and drivable. From the date of the first inspection on March 20, 1969 when the C.S.I. inspector saw only 3 complete cars, and nixed the approval for April 1st, until April 19th when the 25th was completed, all stops were pulled to build the cars in the experimental assembly hall in Werk 1. The photo was taken April 21 at the time of the second inspection.

One of my favorite subjects. And thanks to all for some excellent descriptions.

I remember talking to Jurgen Barth at Rennsport Reunion III. I took all my M471 documentation with me with the intention of finding Jurgen Barth to see if he knew anything about my car. I eventually found him relaxing under a canopy and I went up to him and said, "Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions?" He was very gratious and said, "Sure, have a seat." I sat down with him and we talked for about 15 minutes.

I told him about the Erich Strenger Car and I showed him that the VIN was on the infamous list (telex from Porsche to Joe Hoppen) of 48 factory built 914-6 GT's. He said that he was actually the one that compiled the list for the telex and that all the cars on the list, Porsche considered them to be factory built GT's.

Thats all well and fine but we all know there is a difference between the ones that became factory racecars, privateer racecars and the ones that became street cars.

I believe its possible all the 15 1971 M471 cars were initially intended to be racecars but many of them never made it that far. Since they were on the list they can certainly be considered Homologation GT's. Many of these cars were sold by dealers as "Street GT's" and thats accurate too because they did ended up as street cars.

I don't think you would be wrong if you referred to the M471's as any of the following:
914-6 M471 GT, Homologation GT, Street GT or just plan old 914-6 M471.

Either way, they are very rare and I am proud and honered to take on the responsibility of preserving its place in 914 history.

not really ... but homologation is the same word in english and german

Gustl

personally, I would say that all Porsche 914-6 with the M-471 option (factory built !!!) belong to the same group
this would also include the factory built M-471 street cars that were built after the homologation process
I'm talking about a couple of MY'72 cars with the factory installed M-471 package (for example the well known car with the highest VIN 914.2.43.0260)

Gustl

Questionable - According to Denis Jenkinson book Porsche Past & Present, Yes they had 25 cars with 4.5 litre engines in them lined up for inspection. "Whether they were all complete and ready to run was academic, as was the question of whether they were all sold or intended to be sold."

After the Homologation process, most of the 25 cars were dismantled and put in storage as back-up material. They would race a batch of 917s and then build and replace them with another batch. Bodywork changed as did engine displacement up to 5 litres. In all more than 60 917s and variants were made.

T.C.

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My source was Excellence Was Expected. Deceptive practices by other manufacturers caused C.S.I. to accept nothing less than 25 complete, ready to race, 917's. That was done, the photos were taken, and the homologation was accepted for May 1. The problem was that little testing had been done, so the cars were still in a developmental process. The whole design & build process had been completed in an amazingly short period. However the cars needed a lot of development yet, which meant a lot of revisions, thus the cars were dismantled to make the revisions. The long and short of it was, any car in the line could have been raced that day.

There are later VIN's than the '72 #260, including a 914-6 that was build in '75 IIRC, as it did have the later style bumpers.

There was some book cooking for to get the homologation numbers.

you're talkin plural ???

there is exactly one car known - but nobody knows the VIN ...
it might be a 914-4 VIN with 914-6 components, who knows
anyhow, that's a one off, built on special demand by a customer with lots of money

what other 914-6 do you know with a higher VIN than 914.2.43.0260 ???

Gustl