Starter is apparently over heating during my commute (which it didn't do for the past year)

(1).What's the cause? (yes I know heat...why I odda )

(2). Is the only cure a new starter?......or...?

(3). I also have an interesting idle also...the "warmer" the car the lower the idle?

Help Por-favor :

Ahhhhh the infamous Hot Starter Not Worky problem HSNW for short

This a normal 914 problem and there are a few solutions.

1. Add a Ford solinoid next to the starter

2. Take apart the starter solinoid and clean it very well (this may buy you a bit more time but it will fail again)

3. Replace the starter

I will try to find a link to how to wire the solinoid

Here it is Solinoid install

Options:
High torque starter
72-up 911 starter
Starter Upgrade Kit.

New starter is my favorite because they bolt in. Kit calls for installing and wiring.

The main problem is that your electrical connections are dirty.
Clean the grounds, battery to body, and the tranny ground strap.

Clean the positive lead at the battery and at the starter.

High heat creates more resistance in electrical circuits.

Rich

Sounds like the aircooled vw starter too far from the battery and too many connections syndrome that vw guys have been fixing forever. On my bugs in the early 70's I just modded a horn relay and put it by the battery under the seat and ran the battery solenoid wire through the relay to the battery. The ign. sw. triggered the relay. The ford relay is huge a horn relay is very small. You gotta take it apart and ground one side of it's coil to make it work. The relay doesn't carry the cranking volts it just carries the solenoid amps, the solenoid carries the cranking amps.

Please dont add the relay, its just masking the issue.
The car is 35 years old...sometimes you need to clean the corrosion on the battery terminals and the main cables...thats all...its simple.

Rich

I have delt with this many times and it comes down to the starter solinoid that is built into the starter is failing. You have the choice to fix it right or just fix it! It is your call!! It is your car!! Sometimes the connections can be cleaned to give the old solinoid enough juice to go for a while longer but it will fail at some point. Sometimes the dirty connections are what caused the failure in the first place. Either way you can fix it depending on your needs. The best method is to clean the connections then replace the starter. Next would be clean the solinoid, this is the cheepest but will not last. Last would be the external solinoid for a cheap easy fix for a car that is just being driven.

$.02

Sure, clean the terminals, do the simplest thing first, but the way it was was done by the factory is an old-fashioned and lousy way to wire a car. Once you put in a Ford solenoid there is no more problem from heat, so if the starter begins to fail really a bad starter.

On old chevs you could disassemble the solenoid and turn the copper washer around and turn the contacts around and get more life out of them. The copper washer would be worn down all around it's outer edge and the contacts for the wires would be worn down on one side. High amperage does that. On the vw starters I never tried to repair one. The deal is the solenoid engages the big amp contacts to supply the starter high current load to turn the starter and when the contacts get worn it takes more current to get it to work and that makes more heat and it progressively get worse. That is only the inside of the starter problem. The vw problem is the long distance of the start circuit. It starts at the battery, in the back, goes forward to the ign sw, in the front, then goes back to the back right beside the battery to the starter. On a bug it's about a foot between the two. All the connections including the ign sw get old and tired like me. A trigger using this long circuit works much better if it only needs to energize a small relay that in turn has a very short circuit from the battery to the starter, about 2 feet versus maybe 12 feet. When things get hot the resistance goes up and reduces current flow. Why not improve a 60's wiring circuit to 2009? It doesn't require the huge ford relay unless you are try to replace the 914 solenoid completely and that won't fix the long ign sw circuit.

Not much description of your problem. How are you sure it's the starter and not the ignition switch? These cars are old, the ignition switch will crack and that will give you intermitting starting problems. I've never had a starter go bad on all 4 of the 914's I've owned, but I have had to replace the plastic ignition switch on 3 of them. Always cured the problem, and clean your grounds as stated above. Now, knock of wood my starter will give out. Let us know what you find.

The 914 wiring is designed exactly like the bug they have the same problem.

Failing all of the above, you could just carry a sheet and a hammer in the car.... Or park facing downhill.


I wound up going with a mini-starter on mine when the problem came. Many starts later and I've only had one no-start condition, which was not related to the starter.

All your options are here. None are really mutually exclusive. I'd replace the starter (as that's what I did), but you may have at which ever path you feel comfortable with. I've heard over from people here with opinions that I trust, that a relay, while it'll work, masks the issue, which is at least partly true.

Maybe a quibble but I don't know why you'd call it "masking" the issue, since you end up with a semblance of modern wiring and an engine that starts every time.

I wish I could somehow type the sound you make when you stick your tongue out and blow hard....like nana nana na na...but more of the fun, joking yet poo poo of your idea.

The relay does not help the lack of a decent ground wire.
If your ground suck..a relay wont fix that.

Rich

Well, regarding the relay masking, etc. I had this problem after a long drive when everything got really hot.

If I jumped the starter wires it would turn over, but not so from the key.

I did all the normal cleaning/adding a ground, and starter replacement with a Bosch unit and it still would not work.

SO, i put the relay in and it hasn't given me a problem since.

I'm with Rich. If a relay 'fixes' the problem then the problem is in the wiring not the solenoid. All the relay is doing is bringing a reliable 12V to the terminal of the solenoid. 12V is 12V regardless whether it is coming off a secondary relay or coming off a key. The problem that the relay is fixing is voltage drop due to contact resistance somewhere in the path from the battery to the key, back to the relay board and then down to the solenoid, from the solenoid to the ground ground strap and body to the other side of the battery. That's a long route! So when the solenoid is engaged it draws a pretty heavy current. That current cause the voltage drop at any point where there is contact resistance. Final result is you get less than 12v at the terminal of the starter. Once it drops below a certain threshold it will not be enough to fire it.

What the relay is going to do is greatly reduce the current and therefore reduce the voltage loss along the route. Voltage stays up at the terminal of the relay, relay fires, gives a solid 12v to the solenoid even under heavy current - solenoid fires.

Relay will make the system reliable but it is sort of the lazy fix. To do it right you have to find out where the voltage drops are along the route and find where you need to clean. This can only be done reliably under load.

One of these days I'm going to draw a diagram to show this but the easiest way to get the idea is to measure directly across the battery when you are trying to crank. Then measure from the yellow wire on the starter to the transmission. I'll wager you will see a significant difference in the 2 voltages.

I had the same problems. The best solution (in my opinion) is to buy the mini starter from eBay. It's about 120 bucks with free shipping. It will be the end of your hot start problems. It also works when the car has sat for a long time and the battery charge is not the best. I ripped out the the PO's relay package. It is kind of a Mickey Mouse band aid solution.

Eddy

Funny story. I had bought a '72 new off the showroom floor. My girl friend (and she still is) who is my wife now of 32 years and I dated and had a a lot of great times with the 914. I remember we pulled up to the local hangout restaurant and we had just gone over the 36K warranty on the car. We had dinner and went to leave and sure enough it wouldn't crank over. Went back into the restaurant and acquired a butter knife. Got under the car and jumped the solenoid and fired it right up. Away we went and kept the butter knife in the center console. Used that butter knife many times. She used to drive it alot and many times she was with friends and it wouldn't start and she would just say "just a minute, I've got this handled". She'd crawl under the car and fire it right up. Later I had heard of the hard start solenoid but just never got to installing it. I'd have to say stupid stories like these are what endear these crazy little cars to our hearts.

1 Go to Walmart buy a #6 wire about six feet long (about $3.00) attach to the body ground where the battery is attach, the other end attach to the starter bolt that holds the stater on, clean before attaching.

2. Put a cork gasket between starter the engine, run a heavy gauge to both sides, this should cut heat transfer.

Take Care
Bill

No doubt that the resistance of the circuit and subsequent voltage drop to the solenoid is what causes the hot start "click" problem. No doubt you are right.

I guess my point is that, if all those parts have been confirmed to be working correctly, and the problem still exists, I have two options.
1. Start replacing the parts that came with the car with beefier units, larger gauge wire, and better plating on contacts.
2. put the relay in.

So, if it is masking, so be it, but I made a good faith effort and verified all components were working properly.

Endear the cars? Hell no! That story should endear the girlfriend. That kinda girl is rarer than a 916! I want one!!!

Eric,
Absolutely - if it works and gets you on the road reliably then why not. Not all of us wrench wenches like klink. The good think about the relay is that it does not require a hack to the wiring. If a future owner wants to trace down the real problem in the future he just can yank out the relay - no harm no foul.

The key to your approach is your statement of 'due diligence'. There are conditions that can cause poor starting that might effect other things. As long as you have investigated them then there is no harm in putting in the relay.

If you have a problems with the ground strap or the battery terminals it will effect cranking and a host of other things.
If you have corrosion on the connectors to the relay board you could have host of other problems emerge as the corrosion gets worse.
If the traces are wearing out on your switch - well that will get obvious when it gets bad enough.

You can use a volt meter, with an assistants help, to check for some of these conditions easily without replacing parts. All of the below needs to be done with the car being cranked (or at least trying to be cranked)

1. measure the voltage across the battery terminals. That's your baseline. In theory that voltage should be present at the solenoid. Even in a new car it would not be there 100% but it would be close.
2. now read between the + battery post and the body. If it is lower than the baseline then there is probably an issue with the neg battery terminal or ground to the body.
3. now read between the + battery terminal and the block. Any additional drop would be attributable to the tranny to body strap. (oh I can see certain members of the forum having fun with that statement!)
4. Now measure from the starter wire to the block. additional drop = positive battery post.
5. yellow wire on the starter to block - additional drop = something on the trip to the ignition and then back to the battery. At this point it starts getting a little more difficult to do the checking. Also from this point you are looking for the voltage to start going up. The rest is fiddly - you may want to give up here.
6. pin 6 of the 12 pin on the relay board (leave it plugged in - slide the cover off and measure to the pin) to the block - voltage increase = that the wire to the solenoid, the connector on the solenoid
7. pin 1 of the 14 pin on the relay board - voltage increase = dirty connector on the 12 or 14 pin.

You can continue this on through the ignition switch and back to the battery.

SWL , that was a very good explanation of the circuit check , but as mentioned earlier , the distance of the voltage from the ign switch to the starter solenoid is usually the biggest obstacle . When I was younger , I worked on the older Silver Eagle , GMC buses for a custom coach comp out of Nashville,Tn. These things were from 40ft long to about 30 something long , voltage drop over the distances of the wiring on these things was horrible, that's why there were relays on certain systems , they also used 2 huge batteries to turn over the 8v71 detroits , plus run lighting , ac , and more depending on the add ons to the system.
Cleaning the electrical contacts will help tremenduosly , but you will still have the long distance voltage drop , the relay is a good solution for that , heck even a small lawnmower relay would be suffecent to overcome .

My $.02

Jaxdream

1. new starter
2. new solenoid
3. hot start kit
4. clean all grounds & battery posts

I haven't had a starter problem
in many years!
P.S ,I hope I did'nt curse myself, LoL

While it was touched on, it wasn't stated directly as to why the relay may mask another underlying issue.

Something gets hot and then the car will not start.

This implies that an electrical component is heating up to the point of increased resistance. Wire will cool back down, but starter solenoids may "stick" (Refer to exhibits A and B, the 914 and a generic GM V8).

To overcome resistance, (1) the offending component should be replaced (solenoid), (2)environmental factors modified if possible (don't let it get hot), or (3) ensure that more current gets to it ( a)hot start relay b)new wires c)clean grounds).

You'll sometime see a GM with a Ford relay, which addresses generally 1 and 2, though sometimes guys will run bigger cables around for a hat trick.

In our cases, a relay (3) is cheap and appears to give enough of a boost to overcome any issues with the solenoid due to a reduced path to voltage (and less current drop). A replacement starter (1) also fixes it because you're then replacing a potentially 39 year old component with a new one. (Assuming that grounds are good and the cabling doesn't have any extreme voltage drops.

So with a "hot start" relay, you're adding another component (that might could fail, but is cheap) that should address your issue reliably enough until you want or need to spend the additional $80 or so (depending on how you do it in the first place) for a new starter.

As far as ease of installation, adding a relay shouldn't be a big deal. If you have an extra hand the starter is not difficult to install. (Seems like I had some problems in play trying to hang it and get bolts started - not hard, but reach was key)

First: Thank you all for your help this site is incredible for advice, a ribbing or two and just plain fun

Second: I had a chance to climb under the car last night...and low and behold..there is already the Ford part bolted to the bottom of the car! No longer hooked up...but there! I guess I never noticed it as it was tucked away a bit...we'll see if it still works this weekend.

Thanks again.

Well, this issue sure comes up a lot. I know that when it starts happening to your car, there is no "easy" fix. When the car is new, the circuit works just fine. As the wires, connections, and electrical components age, the ability of them to carry current and work correctly starts to fail. The best way to fix this problem would be to replace those electrical components with new. We tend to try to get by as cheap as possible, so that will not be an option for most of us.
Her is a cheap fix that I used for a couple of years on a 70 that I had many years ago. It was still working when I sold the car and yes, I told the buyer what the circuit was for. I went down and bought an old "push to start" switch like the 49 Fords had on the dash. I drilled a hole large enough ( 1/2 inch or so) in the rear engine tin on the drivers side near the starter. Mounted the switch there with the push button side in the engine compartment. Hooked up a 14 ga. wire from the large solenoid terminal where the battery cable is to one side of the switch. the other side of the switch ( 14 ga wire again ) went to the other spade terminal where the yellow wire goes. Any time the car was too warm to start from the ignition switch, all I had to do was put it in neutral - key on - hand brake up - open engine lid - push starter button - engine starts - close engine lid.
I know it masks the true problem of too many contacts and connections in the starting circuit, but it does work, and it's not too expensive of a temp fix. Especially if the "hot no-start" problem happens to you only infrequently, and it beats the heck out of getting under the car to jump the connections.
Tom