I finally got my latest project running but not well enough
I need to do a little tuning...

its a 1.7 motor with a cam (don't know the specs of the cam) from the previous owner
I can get leak down/compression, but don't have them at this moment.
I also don't know the compression, but it is mild... probably stock

the P.O. claims it was rebuilt and I believe it
I took all of the tin/push rod tubes off, and it looks to have been rebuilt with out worn/shot stock cam lobes and with lifters showing no significant wear
doesn't seem to burn-smoke or leak any oil at this point.

Its running 40mm dual webers, currently testing at 3300 foot altitude
(motor came from a running car at about 5500 ft)

I rebuilt the carbs and the jetting is:
-28mm (chokes) main venturis
-2ndary venturis 4.5
-main jets 115
-air jets 200
-emulsions F11
-acc. pump ball jet 50
-acc. pump towers 50
-idles 50
I've never carbed a 1.7 before

The motor came with a 009 distributor and points
I ditched it and put in a L-jet 914 (1.8) distributor with points, blue coil, and no retard/advance lines hooked up
the cap/rotor/plugs/wires are all good-new

car idles smooth, pulls fine from standing, and then stumbles mildly from 2000 - 3000
the car clears out and runs great at 3000 or 3100rpm
timing is currently set at 29degree's, but this is my norm for altitude.

dad and I are in disagreement about the cause
he thinks its too rich for the tiny motor

I think its a distributor curve issue

Jake, do you know?
I have a Djet distributor available easily... or could put the 009 back on... or think maybe I should buy an 050 somewhere to see if the curve is actually the problem

We discussed buying 110 mains also to play with it...

thanks in advance for any advice from the guru's out there
brant

what is the prefered and affordable (not mallory) distributor for carbed street cars...

my last carbed 4 was electromotive, and before that in the 80's it was an 050. I thought I heard that the 1.8/ljet had a good curve.. but I'm not so sure now.

A stumble from 2k to 3k indicates an issue with the transition from idle jets to main jets. I'd guess pulling back a size on the mains. But I'm not the carb guru that some people are.

If this persists a change of emulsion tube to an F7 may help... BUT thats usually a band aid for something else thats wrong..

I'm no where NEAR the guru Jake is, but your carb specs are similar to my 2056... which I got the carb-tuning for from jake...

I'm running
32mm vents,
125 mains,
f11 emulsion
60 idles
200 airs

that is what jake suggested for a stock-cammed 2056..

I agree with McMark,

I'd maybe kick up the vent size and mains.
I'm guessing 30mm, and 125 mains
because there's a 'gap' in between your idles and mains right now...

I THINK you can either increase the idles or mains to fix your issue, you might want to do both in a smaller increment tho... gaps are bad, if I understand it right, you are stretching the limits of what the idle jet can put out, so it cuts to a lean mix, then you get a lean mix starting the main jet, so my thought is if you increase both a little, you should get a smoother transition because the idles aren't being stretched as much, and your mains should start a little richer... meaning no 'lean' gap.

I could be off the mark or over simplifying it tho..

But I'm certainly no expert. Looking forward to more responses to this thread though.
Easy enough to throw in idle jets one size up and try that out. If nothing else it may clarify the direction you need to go.

Leave the vents at 28mm
step up the idle jet first..then change the emulsion tube to the F7

The other thing to do is contact aircooled.net. They have a real world list of known setups for webers on type 4 motors from all over the country at different elevations.
Just be nice and buy your parts from them...
Call and get an answer...email and you may not.

Rich

its easy to flood it out at starting and the plugs certainly are not lean looking....

I was thinking it might be too rich for ameasly 1.7 (1/7th less displacement than a 2056?)

hmmm
I'll buy one set of smaller mains and if that doesn't do anything I can always bore out or increase the jet sizes myself to go richer

I'm thinking I may buy an innovate tail pipe fixture too and see what the guage says

do other people run the 1.8 ljet distributor with carbs?
should I try to hook up the advance side of the dash pot to a vacuum line?

Mike, do you have any spare 050 distributors that I could throw into the motor for a 5 minute test run to rule out the timing curve side of the equation?

Mike, are you running that mallory yet.. and what distributor did you have in it before the mallory?

thanks all
brant

Kick its ass or it'll kick yours..
That said, the set up you have is stock for a 1600cc engine for a Fiat!! Those vents also work great on a 1600cc T1 and your 1700cc TIV..

UNLESS you have a worn cam, shot rings or glazed cylinders or a half ass exhaust.. The VERY FIRST thing that you do when tuning issues occur is verify the engine's integrity with a compression and leak down test- period.

With 2.5-3 PSI fuel pressure, float height set at 10& 23mm and the jets you have that engine should run great... The only change I'd make would be running a 220 air at that elevation

And remember that 95% of Carburetor issues are actually ignition issues...

When I learned about carbs there was no internet, no air fuel meters, I never read a book and no one taught me how the damn thing worked or what the circuits were.. I decided to kick it's ass so I threw changes at it, figured out how they responded to those things and won the battle.

That said IF this engine is using an 050 dizzy that IS the fucking problem. Remove it, throw it away and don't look back- they suck, always have and always will and I don't give a damn what people say that have a so called "positive experience" with them.. They are made for WOT running all the time. Most people that "think" the 050 works well have never experienced a properly set up alternative.. They set up retarded at idle and breed hesitations, flat spots and rich running.

Carbs are the simplest thing on this planet to work with, nothing is easier to understand on the entire engine IMHO...

if a mallory is out of the price range tho, then what? he's using an 1.8 Ljet dizzy right now...

009?
Djet dizzy? where do these dizzy's rank? sorry if I'm getting OT, but if it's ignition, what else should one try? I'm curious, because all I've ever heard is that 009 is crap, and 050 is slightly better, but still shit compared to the mallory...

Brant,
I've been running the Mallory in mine since Feb and it's made a world of difference. Prior to that it was an 009 with Pertronix. Obvious, and I do mean obvious, change in performance. The engine now pulls throughout the entire rpm range. As I mentioned before, whenever I experienced any hesitation it was due to debris in one of the carb jets. 2-3k stumbling would have me checking idle jets first, but it's easy enough to pull everything to inspect.
Mike

I probably still have an 050 laying around here somewhere, but I'd have to find it. Of course you're welcome to use it if it will help your troubleshooting. Let me know and I'll see if I can dig it up.

The Mallory has been installed for a year or so now. Prior to that the zambeziteen had a 009 installed. You can borrow that too if'n you want. Hell, I even have a dual point 009 around here somwhere. Don't know who went to the trouble to make that thing up.

The problem your having doesn't sound like ignition or advance curve to me, but whaddoIknow...

I did find out at C&C last Saturday though that Scott's 40IDF's as well as mine (I was shocked ) do in fact have a vacuum nipple! Both of them. I never could see this on a diagram, but it's there bigger than life. Yours might also. If so, you could add vacuum to your dizzy and get the additional benefits of vacuum advance curve to the 1.8 unit.

Call me this afternoon anytime after 3:00.

Hello Brant...

sorry for not calling
I'll call tomorrow if thats ok with you
after 3 good again?

I have that vacuum port on this car also
which side of the dash pot do I want to hook it too?
(one hose barb is slightly bigger... like 3mm vs 4mm)

I think I'll stick a distributor in before I buy jets... (cheaper)
then I'll buy jets.. mains and idles
any local shops for jets around?
Is randy's VW still open?

brant

No sweat. Today works. I'm cell-less until this afternoon. See my email.

I'll get a pic of one of my carbs or if we can meet up I can drive the 914 and you can see it for yourself. One of those vacuum ports on the dizzy can is for advance and the other is for retard. If memory serves me, advance pulls away from the dizzy and retard pushes. Based on the angle you can figure out which is which. Advance is usually the one sticking out the end and retard is in the side of the can. And then you can always pop the cap off and figure it out.

Randy's is long gone. Painter's will have some and even IPW has a selection. That's where I got my last set of idle jets a couple of years ago.

dunno about local, but I recommend aircooled.net fro jets, etc.

Thanks to both of you!

Wayne, did you ever come up with any opinion about which "cheap" dizzy to use. I yanked the 009 since I've always heard so much bad about it.. I thought the ljet was better. But I might put the 009 back on just to see. I could try a djet distributor (I have) just to see also

obviously the mallory is best, but I'm wondering if something I already have access to is useable for a mild street car without spending money I don't have right now.

tia

Well you have recieved a significant amount of very good advise....So make a list of the best ones and proceed methodically.I would suggest that the person who stated that most problems just may be in the ELECTRICAL side of this issue is probably right on the money...AS an example (do you really want to tune your engine to accomodiate the other malfunctioning parts....GET down to the basics first....set the spark plug gap to .025-.;027ths of an inch.....make sure the CONDINSER is new,the points are properly set...016ths. and the lift block on the points is perfect, and the lobes are greased on the distributor shaft..no shorts from frayed wires.....excessive rotor to cap....gap will cause a miss,(flat spots)...and the RICHER the fuel mixture the more significant (problems) arrise.as the weak spark cannot fire the cylinder charge.....It might be that 29 is too advanced (for your elevation...air density)....try 27....and do your carbs have the short velocity stacks????a good direct air stream to assist the enrichment ventures with proper atomization of the high speed fuel mixture is critical....otherwise you will have fuel droplets(chunks) which will give the perception of a too rich mixture(plug check)....a new COIL may also be in order....etc etc etc ...you will resolve this issue faster if you ONLY make one change at a time and check the results.

The stumble is either ignition or transition issues. Can't help with ignition. Most carb transition issues are due to low float level. Check your float level. If your float level is low your mains will be lean and you'll stumble at 2-3K when you get off the idle jets. If your float level is good, like Jake said, the F7 will help richen it up at transition.

I don't think your rich. I'm betting if you step down on the mains you'll get a lean pop.

never a clear answer, but more options...
http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1477 was mentioned

as was the DIS-IX Distributorless Ignition System for 009 Distributor at http://www.compufire.com/vw-products-main.html

the last one seems interesting, but you still use a distributor like an 009 or 050 for the advance, so I dont know if that's really better? but someome said you can get a distributor advance changed by ??

of course, if it's that easy, why not take a good 009 and have someone fix the advance to be correct where it doesn't retard the 3rd cylinder? a cheap + correct solution is all we are looking for.

Just to be clear, when adjusting the mixture screws, you are adjusting the amount of air... the fuel being a constant based on the jetting and the fuel pressure - is this correct?

The air bypass screws adjust the amount of air bypassed around the idle circuit. The idle jet AFR is a constant. You can only adjust the amount of both air and fuel by turning the mixture screw. That is only at idle with the butterflies closed. As soon as the butterflies open A/F exits the progression ports. That ratio is based on idle jet sizing alone.

As long as I'm re-reading this thread, it occurs to me that I heard once that John Eisenbud (local german repair shop) had a dizzy machine and could re-curve a Bosch unit.

that would be quite handy... a 009 could be more than a trotline sinker...

About 14 years ago when I first got my car, 2056, 009 Dist, cam and dual 40 IDF's, I was very dissatisfied with the low and mid range running, particularly around the transition points. I did some calling around to Weber suppliers for recommendations on jetting, and they all recommended that i significantly upgrade the ignition before trying to rejet. Put in a Pertronics and that helped (Yeah, I know about Pertronix failures now, but mine has run for about 14 years). Second step a couple of months later was a Crane HI-6 multi spark, again a noticeable improvement. After a bit more reading up I did a little work swapping jets, one set at a time so you know what is really happening, and got some improvement. As the internet came along and I was able to get more information, I decided to swap the original distributor back in (the PO had given me that with some parts), again, more improvement. Last change was to run a vac line from the tap on one carb barrel to the advance pot of the distributor, again, some improvement. I'm still running the 28mm venturies that came in the setup, but I got a set of 32's at Hershey, so sometime I'll put those in and maybe have to chase the jets around again.
My experience FWIW.
Harvey

.......Harvy....this is me733......Very intresting history, of coming to grips with flat spots and improving your engine...I would suggest that the 32mm venturies will add at least 15 -20 horsepower when you have it properly jetted.,and will have very little effect on your bottom end.(it will have some maybe, depending on the camshaft duration).as a bench mark start with 115 mains, and 175 air corrections,then check your SPARk PLUGS...keep an eye on oil pressure and temperature.(oil of course is 20-50 right!).best H.P. is is just above LEAN...get the CHAMPION SPARK Plug book,(info on reading plugs).thanks for your comments as maybe we can help others.

Thanks Harvey,

which side of the vacuum pot is the advance side?

The one that points away from the distributor body.

I like the 115 main with 175 AC myself. Mentioned it in another thread. Some would disagree saying that Weber uses a 200 A/C jet as the baseline. So thats what they're going to use. Your A/F ratio is dependant on the combination of your main and A/C jet. Imagine drinking a soda with a hole in the straw above the liquid. You main is the diameter of the straw and the hole is your A/C jet. The larger the hole, the more air you'll get. The larger the straw diameter the more soda you get. Your mixture of air and soda is dependant on the ratio of the diameter of the holes. Running a 115 Main with a 175 A/C will give you a similar A/F ratio as running a 125 main with a 190 A/C.

115/175 = .657

125/190 = .657

Obviously you don't want to go to either extreme. You don't want a big motor trying to drink through a little straw and vice-versa.

...may I be so bold to add something here.
This is what I do to settle any carb-distributor issues. I start at the ignition. Ensure that everything is what it should be as far as gap, if using points; condenser, coil and wiring.
Engine and transmission to good ground.
Clean all grounds and check wiring terminations.
Eliminate all wiring problems. Electricity flows on the outside diameter of the wire, make sure that all of those issues are taken care of in the iginition circuit, from key thru fuse block to ground via plug wires and plugs themselves. "Cleanliness is next to Godliness".
I set my points static, with a light, key-on engine-off. Light will come on just as the lobe opens the points, lock it down. If using points, remember that a conical build up on one, causes a concave portion on the other. If trying to measure point gap with that condition, it will always be too much. Replace points if it exhibits that condition.
After ensuring ignition is spot on, move to carbs. (based on Webers and Dells).
First check float bowls for cleanliness, including the jet at the bottom. A piece of debris from oxidation, dirt, piece of gasket and even water condensation can create havoc. Remove and check all orifices, then thoroughly clean and reinstall them.
...sidebar: In my day, we removed the floats and placed a plate near the top of the bowl, and using three fuel pumps, one scavaging (both), two supply, kept the system from fuel starvation on hard corners, heavy braking and vibration.

Richie Ginther set his carbs up with unequal length velocity stacks and thick resilient gasket bases between the carb body and the intake manifolds. He also used springs with the mounting screws to dampen the inherent vibrations of the horizontal four reducing the fuel sloshing in the bowls.

Adjust float, check it at least three times. Ensure float itself functions as expected.
Check fuel pressure, replace filters (all of them). Check the sock in the tank as well, if you find your filters filthy. If you are using the metal kind. Cut it open lengthwise and inspect the contamination.
Utilize the stock height velocity stacks for these adjustments. The taller versions look good, but give incorrect readings affecting lower rpm settings.
Use a flow meter to see whats up at idle and part throttle (3200 rpm). Note who's doing what. Disconnect throttle linkage, (both sides). Adjust idle stop, usually 1 and a 1/2 turns out from soft stop, (all in). Smooth (balance side to side) with air flow ajustments using meter, then readjust idle stops to a smooth 900 rpm.
Snaping and poping occurs for three reasons under load; Lean mixture, ignition and valves. For example: throttle shaft wear allows airflow under load, leaning out mixture; bent values, usually from water ingestion; or valves that are incorrectly adjusted too tight; or ignition too advanced, or distributor shaft wear, causing uneven firing.
IF ALL THINGS ARE GOOD TO GO, loosen all adjustment points of the throttle linkage. Reconnect them and remove all preload. At the central point, move off idle position and rev it repeadedly, allowing it to fall back to idle. Watch closely the mechanical movement. It will always be unequal. The throttle linkage is a tolerance nightmare. The throttle linkage is the connection between your foot and the butterflies in the carburator. All four must move in concert. I would even replace the manifold to carb body gaskets. At which point is your chance to check the butterfly mounting position in relation to the flats on the throttle shafts to ensure that they are "concentric" to the bores. The screws are often worn and damaged from others using the incorrect tools during rebuilds.
If you have the cast or formed metal base for the filters, they collect dirt and debris. Clean them. Water also collects there with the filters installed. Look at the base of the emulsion tubes when installed into the carb body. That's where the water collects as well. I live in Florida and water is an issue.

I cut my own bases and lowered the interface with the base of the filters below the original surface by about an eighth of an inch and added slots to allow water to drain (to keep the water from forming around the base of the emulsion tubes). I modified a fine nylon mesh material from Outerwears to ensure that the drain holes don't allow debris to enter.

Back to throttle linkage adjustments....replace the bushings in the shaft to ensure only one plane of movement. There should not be a side to side deflection during its' rotation. Also add a second locking piece on the cable at the cross bar. One is not enough. It sees constant stress.
As all things mechanical, when everything was new, it was as good as it gets. Over time, the system deteriorates in many different places for many different reasons. Collectively it all stacks up against you. Inspection and maintenance here is a must for crisp throttle response and carb flow, balancing ensures correct breathing. Once everything is adjusted properly, one can hear and feel the difference.
Compression differential problems are straight forward and easy to remedy by comparison. Cam problems are a different breed and require a complete teardown, at which time, all engine wear issues can be addressed. Jake would be the guy to discuss cam issues and remedies.
My only addition would be to check, double check and triple check, as I do, the valve adjustments. We have solid lifters for a reason. I personally don't like hydraulic lifters on the horizontally opposed engine. It's like wearing socks in the shower. It's not right.
...this is my 4 cents worth....

SO bottomline CB linkage sucks.

Getting carns synched at 3000 RPM under throttle cable tension is what you really want. Idle stop screws on each side are only for idle.

I didn't see you mention acceleration jets but my ADD was kicking in 1/3 way through. Gotta make the jets squirt even, hugely over looked fuel delivery circuit.