A few weeks ago I had a lifter noise coming from my drivers side head, SBC 350. I pulled the valve cover to find lots of play in #1 intake, barely moving when I started it. I adjusted it and fount the adjustment was wayyyy off compared to the others. So I couldent wait, I drained the coolant, pulled the dist, manifold, and sure as Sh*t I found the lifter missing .050 of metal on the bottom with a small hole in it. It wouldn't pump up. So I headed down to the local AP store and get a new lifter for $7.99. I spot checked a few others and they were all ok.
So, all back together, get it running set the timing, change the oil, ( FYI, ran the oil thru a magnet to catch any metal, nothing found) Runs good and strong like the good ole days.
Now the oil pressure is progressivly getting lower. Was 60psi at start, with 20psi as it warms up at idle, 50 at cruse. Now 55 at start, gets as low as 10 at idle, 40 to 45 at cruse. I did switch to mobil 1 5w-30, then 10W-30 on the last 2 changes.
working from past experience, low oil press is never a good thing.
I know the cam is defective and needs replacement, I expect to replace the oil pump, hopefully just polish the crank and a new set of bearings?
If that's it, pistions and rings OK, I will probally keep the steel heads and spend my $ on a roller cam and lifters. I already have roller rockers, and some decient heads.
For those of you guys who know the history of my engine better than me, it suposidly had 416 hp on the Dyno and close to $6500.00 in build cost. So it is worth keeping it instead of a new crate motor.
Plus did I mention the govener (wife) is keeping an eye on the budget.

I have talked to a few guys here in Sequim tell me there are no shops on the Olympic pennisula worth using.

Any recomendations on machine shops in the PNW? someone mentioned Action Auto parts on 99 near edmonds. I did find a guy in PA, he just assembles and farms out his machining to a guy in Tacoma.

Feel free to shoot me thoughts, opinons, ideas and experiences. I'll post picts as I start the project, it will at least give me a chace to detail the engine compartment.

Thanks for any input

Tony
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

time to drop the engine and pull the oil pan off, check the rods and mains. the cam bearings might be on there way out too. did you cut the oil filter to see what was in there?

10 at idle and 40-45 at cruise isn't that unusual for sbc depending on the oil.

get a hold of larry over there. he should know some one local or closer to you for the machine work. might have to go to b town.

i was afraid of all this when we talked about the lifter.

Hi Troy, I did cut open the old filter. No sparkly debris to the naked eye, but I found the paper element would stick to a magnet.
I forgot about larry, I'll give him a call today.

Thanks

Hey Tony,
Well...sounds like you've already got off to a good start. There is the chance you just lost a lifter and the others will be OK. I've always been under the thought that changing a lifter out is a crap shoot if it doesn't destroy the already broken-in cam lobe. Although, most of my SBC skills/knowledge is probably outdated, a lot has changed since I was into motors when I was a kid.

If your car isn't a daily driver, I would vote for pulling the motor and going through it. At this point, it would be much cheaper and proactive.

On a side note, I'll be flying into Port Townsend this coming Wed. (via Seattle) for a couple of weeks. I can't remember where you are up there, but if you need a hand I'm game.

Hi Tony,
I'm facing the same situation I think, just that other toys have kept me from playing with the car. There is a guy that I'll be taking my engine to when it comes out, I know him from Tacoma Narrows Airport and he does engines on the side. Everyone in the Gig Harbor Area seems to recomend him. When he's not doing aircraft engines, he's rebuilding SBCs.
Low oil pressure may not be a problem since you switched to synthetic, but mine drops pressure after it gets warm, so I'm thinking bearings.... hence it's off the road for a while and it's killing me.
Pm me if you want to talk to John at Tacoma Narrows.

SBC engines are the worst designed engine in history frankly, and the real Achille's heal to them is the cam and lifters. Fords have crappy head flow, SBCs have crappy short block design. The lifter diam is small and the lobes are narrow so they are really touchy. I built over 400 race engines and only had a couple cams ever go flat on me (right at break-in) and two were on SBC solid tappet combos and one was a BBC solid tappet. Moreover, I am surprised you were able to put a new lifter in it and it hasn't wiped that lobe out yet... key word being yet.

It might just somehow be a mild enough hyd tappet cam it is hanging in there, but I gotta tell ya, there is now way to wipe a lifter out that bad and not hurt the cam lobe in my experience. The sooner you stop driving it, the sooner you stop sanding your crank surfaces as well with the fine metal that certainly ran thru the engine.

Going to a hyd roller retrofit on the SBC is a good idea IMHO. Another issue is with many of these cars they are not DDs, they are occasional runners, so the cam sits and gets completely dry between fire ups. I NEVER start my engine without turning it over until I have oil pressure (I have an ignition kill switch wired in so I can control that) and my lifters have EDM holes cut in them to supply extra oil to the cam during operation. I have a BIG solid tappet cam tho' so I do all I can to keep it together.

+1

That cam lobe is probably toast, and all the lost lifter metal is somewhere in the motor; not a good thing. The sooner you tear it down, the better, IMHO.

An alternative might be to check out the Saturday night roundy-rounders. In the spec ZZ4 classes, these guys buy the motors in group buys, for cheap. Perhaps in this economy you can locate a new ZZ4 crate that someone needs to unload? May be cheaper than rebuilding yours depending on the damage? Just a thought.

Andys

Hi Guys, All good info, I have definetly STOPPED starting the engine and driving the car. The ZZ4 sounds like a good idea, I have shopped for a long block and crate motors, I found some 415 HP with Alum heads and all sorts for $2300.00 but coming from the deep south who knows quality and reliability.
I am sure the cam is toast, I will invest in the roller cam knowing about the dry start issues. My car sits for weeks at a time, I will look into the kill switch and oil prime method when I get her running again.

Thanks for the input keep it coming!!!

Tony

Many of our (sbc) cam issues are thought to be caused by today's crappy oils. If you
are going back with a flat tappet cam, be shure and add ZDP (zinc) oil additive. I have just replaced the cam and heads on my sbc and will keep my fingers crossed upon start up (light weight oil and zdp additive for break-in) . I am going with bigger valve heads, more cam,a point and a half increase in compression, etc. Hoping for another 75 or so HP (you can never have too much). After break-in I will continue to use either a zdp additive or a oil that contains it. Good luck with your issues.

Bob

I have been using rotella in my 91 suburban. Most vw guys I know use rotella. Diesels don't have o2 sensors or cats so their oils have more high pressure additatives. By the time you buy a roller cam and the extra parts to use it in the old style sbc you can just get a later vortec motor with 4 bolt mains and a roller cam.

A better solution to the dry start is a accusump, all my toys with expensive motors have one as they set for weeks sometimes.

Seems like I remember a story from Jake about making a spintron to breakin vw cams to make sure they wern't junk before putting them in a customers motor. Some of my big block friends use weaker valve springs to breakin their high dollar flat tappet cams.

if you go hyd roller, don't worry about dry start - that is an issue with flat tappet cams.

Good oil = Brad Penn 20w50. That is what I run in mine both for good ZDDP and can handle high oil temps associated with tracking. Lots of ZDDP and never a need to buy additional additive and priced well, especially v. full synthetics. I used Kendall forever until it went away and missed it for years, then Brad Penn reintroduced it (it is right out of the old Kendall plant). I would drink that stuff with breakfast if I could

Accusump is also a good idea but most wouldn't be sure how to plumb it in I suspect, tho' it isn't rocket science and easy on a Chebby with an adapter where the oil filter goes. Canton has a nice setup (look online). They are really good if you like to AX or especially track a wet sump car as if you get oil starvation the accusump is there to fill the gap briefly. I have a dry sump setup so no fear of that on my end.

Just rolling it over more me brings up the oil pressure pretty quickly. Another way to do it is to run an oil pressure switch somewhere that is made to make a connection at xxpsi - then you crank over the engine, it hits xxpsi and your ignition is wired thru it to go hot and starts up.

This one is set to make a connection at 7psi, so as soon as your engine sees pressure it will make the connection to your ignition and fire up. 'Course if you lose pressure it shuts it down - actually what it is meant to do, but works well for not firing dry too.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1438/

Good point with the oil pressure switch, we use them with a time delay to protect refrigeration compressors, net oil press gets below 7-9 psi for 120 sec it shuts them down.

I did figure with a Hyd Roller cam Dry starts shouldn't be an issue. Now that I price out a cam and lifters, and all the preferials, I'm at a grand, not counting the machine shop. There are guys on E-bay selling used roller liftres
Is there an advantage or dis advantage to go with a mechanical roller ( solid) vs Hyd? Solid seems a bit cheeper. I had solid lifters in a V-6 before and it seemed I had to adjust the valves 2x month.
I have been told by a few old timers in my neighborhood ( I live in retirement central) that the Zinc is a good aditive to have. some even use Rotella T in their older vehicles. I have a feeling this whole mess started when I swiched to synthetic mobil 1. again WTF?

You might want to consider if what this guy brings to the table will be any benefit to you... Ebay

Hey Tom ,
Thanks for the info and link, I ordered up a package from the guy, let's see what I get. He does make it sound echnomical and simple. The more I research, the more I am going to do myself.
I'm off to the garage to start wrenching
Tony

Hey I just pulled ( dropped ) the engine and tore it down. The cam is toast, 4 of 16 lifters were worn pretty bad. The one I just replaced was as bad as the one I took out. The cast heads weigh a ton but have the big valvs etc. The pistons are dome top type, so it may be best to take it to a machine shop for a hone amnd new rings and bearings, polish the crank etc. I will spend the dough on a nice cam setup and oil pump .

I gotta run I'll post picts later.

Tony

The only thing he is selling is information -
No Hardware - No snakeoil -
I would have no problems trying/desiring to confirm the info before I moved forward -

I read his plight all the way thru, I checked the feed back all the feed back was good saying it worked for them. one guy had a slow response on the information.
It better come thru quick, cause my sh*t is going to the machine shop Monday.

Solid lifters don't like to idle due to reduced oiling (as we all know oil pressure drops at lower rpms) - newer engineering is getting them to last better, and the smaller "street" rollers don't require a ton of spring pressure and that helps them last, but even so, word I hear is you are still looking at a new set of lifters every 10K miles to make sure you don't have a failure and wipe the engine out.

For what you are up to, the hyd roller is the better choice v. solid roller. I have a solid tappet cam in my race engine simply because I don't want to deal with the potential for issue with the solid roller lifters. Being careful and using good oil I should never have an issue with the cam.

I can assure you going to Mobil 1 was your first mistake. The old timers are right. Rotella is probably fine, as I said, I use the Brad Penn oil and stick with what I know works every time. I tended to use race oil on the engines before BP was reintroduced which maintained the ZDDP levels, but when the mfrs reduced the ZDDP back in the late 90s I had some customers lose cams and nobody could really figure out why, including myself. I simply recommended good oil with my engines so I was arbitrarily lucky at the time, tho' I did lose one of those Chevy cams using different oil (showed up to dyno, we had no race oil, hit the FLAPS for what was on the shelf, there you go).

Lastly, you really would be fine to run a hyd tappet cam again... just stick to good oil, use non-detergent break in oil when you break it in (typically called ND-30) tho' I would recommend using the Brad Penn break-in oil to be safe with the ZDDP content again. If your rods have around 0.002" clearance and the mains 0.0025"-.003" you can run the 20w50 no problem. If you get pretty cold temps in your area in winter, consider 10w40 but check the ZDDP content - I think Brad Penn is pretty consistent but not sure since I always use the 20w50.

The best thing about roller cams is the more agressive ramps on the cams. The duration can be reduced and the lift increased for more torque. You really need the new style vortec style heads to compliment the cams.

My ramjet is a hydralic roller. It is the 350hp 400ftlbs (stock boat motor configuration) vortec motor. It came as a mefi3 emu but I have changed it to mefi4 with closed loop o2 operation. I have also got programming stuff to do it my way. I think it would be worthwhile for you to check out the behive valve springs that are also available. They reduce valve float you don't realize you've got. Stock ramjets float valves about 5800 because of the lifter weight unless you use the behive springs. Be careful of the lift on the stock springs unless you change to the behive springs. Old 327's with flat tappit solid lifter 30/30 cams would spin 65/7200 all day long with the old high pressure motor oils. We adjusted the valves about every 3rd or 4th oil change or when the sound of the lifters changed. Rotella is a nice safe cheap oil.

well I pulled the engine 4 weeks ago took it to an old school rebuilding machine shop in Tacoma, Buds. He has been around for 40+ years, Bud first filed me in on what I thought was a 350. First thing out of his mouth, this is a 327 block 64 I beleive, with a 283 steel crank, makes it a 301.7CI. sweetheart of an engine. worth rebuilding. I had J+E forged dome top pistons, H beam rods, World products big valve heads, roller rockers to start, so I kept what I had
So into the wallet I went, sleaved 3 cyclinders, honed, new bearings, micropollished the crank, new roller cam, roller lifters ( hyd), Valve job, valve springs to match the cam. assembly of the long block.
I spent all of the 4 "o" july weekend putting it back together once I got it back from the shop.

I want to thank Mark, "Computers for Kids" for helping me out all day friday putting it together, painting, oil pump and pan, manifold etc.

So all together by sunday, I put it in the car Wedensday, started it last Friday night.
Still working out some small leaks, re-did waterlines, and valve cover gaskets.
Runs like a champ, very smoothe aceleration, wants to rev like a indy car ( still keep it under 4500, till I get some miles on her). only has about 12 miles as she sits and has to wait until I get back from work next week.

Forgot to mention, 60-70 psi on the oil pressure at 2500 rpm, 20 psi at idle
I'll have more to say Thursday.
Here are a few picts for now.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

SWEET Tony, you made some killer progress. I can't wait to hear that thing purr! Keep the updates coming. If you're busy working, I could come over and break the motor in for you ...I know some great roads in Diamond Point . Oops...forgot, I'm back in Cali.
Take Care,
Mark

there is alot of time in the motor, the crank has been worked pretty good!

That should be a nice motor. I would guess the sleeves were dry sleeves. I've got a 350 that has had a dry sleeve since 1980 and it's been run pretty hard in a 63 jeep truck. From my experience don't run a open intake where the screws can fall out of the bottom of the carb into the motor at least use a thin aluminum sandwich gasket type barrier inbetween the carb and intake. 1 carb screw and a forged piston cracked the cylinder wall at about 6500 going into 2nd gear.

What the hell is that supposed to mean???

Hey Tony,

Looks like you got it worked out.....er.......how about the Governor

Nice job on the motor, I think it is always more fun to do it yourself!

Jim

Thanks Jim,
Yep it was a lot of fun, reminded me of the HS days, beer, and oil do mix.

The Governor is good, I just bought her a new (96) diesel pusher to go camping in, so what's a couple of bucks on a new motor?
The best part is, when it comes down to it, I can use the motor home to tow me to events, WCR, and AX. Yep call me a trailer queen, I just need a trailer.

the counter weights have been smoothed up a lot, and it shows a lot of material has been removed to balance the crank with the pistons and rods.

OH, Ok, I thought you were making fun of it's age. rode hard and put away wet, like me.
Thanks Troy, I cant wait to let you drive it and kill the clutch, killer.

Hey. Are you coming to the autoX this saturday? You should come and have a ride in my car.