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ME733
You have asked about the fuchs which came on my 914 S....here goes...the O.E.M. spare rim is dated 8-72...and so are all the others.....and they are part#...914.361.011.00 .They look different in /on the backside than THE PHOTOGRAPH with notes you have shown......as a point of intrest the spare RIM and ALL the four on the ground are identical in every way...EXCEPT the four on the ground have a Painted BACKGROUND.....and after looking closely with a magnifing glass its obvious they are painted...and not quite dead flat black....they are Not anodized....the spare tire is an original tire ..DUNLOP 165 hr 15....looks like it and the rim have NEVER been used...the rim is clean and perfect (both sides and the tire has full tread....and is not dry rotted.(cracks showing in sidewalls)..However,.I would never consider using it obviously. bye1.gif
Tom_T
Thanx - great info ME733,

Your info proves that they did in fact produce Fuchs wheels without the hub-centric (self-centering) inset with part number ending -00, as well as early 1973 2Ls with the old flat front hubs.

BTW - the anodizing is a heat tempering process done on the metal to harden it regardless of the finish (rough, matte, polished, etc.) - so you really acnnot "see" anodized finish, as it's a post finishing process to make the wheels stronger & surface harder. There are places around which will refinish & re-anodize them.

I'd suggest you carefully take the paint off the 4 with acetone or solvent, in order to put them back to original finish all around. There's an instructional post at Pelican & AutoAtlanta on how to bring them back to as new look yourself.

Oh....and...... welcome.png

Best!
Tom
///////
ME733
Tom...this is murray.,,I found your questions intresting.,and it was informative to me personally to "discover" facts about my fuchs that I just never thought about. maybe this information will be of use to someone...this helps me toward conferming that I really do have a real 1973 2.0 S. this car has every option except a heated rear window. I must say that I prefer the look of the mahle wheels which were also available. I suppose you could have a choise at the dealer, but I am pretty sure the 2.0 S came with the fuchs as a standard equipment , maxed out, upgraded "super car!!!!" 914. for 1973. I prefer the original FUCHS unpainted look also, could you assist in helping me find the article/ info you mentioned to remove the paint safely. bye1.gif
Pat Garvey
Two things here, and the post will be moved to the nailed thread.

First, I agree that non-hub centric Fuchs were available for very early 2.0's (I don't use the "S" designation because it was a strictly North American marketing tool). I can testify to the non-hub centric Fuchs' because my very late 72 was delivered with the 4 1/2 inch wheels instead of the 5 1/2 wheels of the app grp. The dealer installed a set of Fuchs wheels to placate me, but I didn't like them (yeah...dumb!). They fit, car ran well - I just wanted what I paid for - 5 1/2 in steelies. They removed them, put them back on the 2 liter car they came from & eventually got a proper set of wheels & tires for my car.

This was early August 1972.

More fun facts for the masses!
Tom_T
BTW Pat -

Because the early hubs were flat & the wheels had an inst (not a bump out) - EITHER the -00 or -01 Alloy Wheels of all brands will fit onto the non-hub-centric front hubs ("hub-centric" is also a marketing name btw for self-centering type hubs, now commonly used like xerox for copy).

I agree with your opinion of the Fuchs 2L Alloys & thought that the Mahle 4-lugs & Rivieras looked much better. But my research has shown that it was indeed fitted with the Fuchs, so now I have to try to find 5 good ones at a high price! dry.gif

....too bad you don't have those from the dealer laying around your garage somewhere! sad.gif

I may keep the Rivieras & clean them up for a "modern" 195/65HR15 set of tires for driving, & just keep a set of proper OE 165HR15 on the Fuchs for show purposes per the other tires discussion thread. idea.gif
McMark
QUOTE
the anodizing is a heat tempering process

Anodizing in an electrical process involving cathode/anode interactions in a chemical bath. Heat isn't a significant part of the process. Anodizing makes the surface harder and impervious to oxidation. After anodizing, but before sealing, a dye can be sprayed, dipped, or brushed onto the part to color it.
EdwardBlume
QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 7 2009, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
the anodizing is a heat tempering process

Anodizing in an electrical process involving cathode/anode interactions in a chemical bath. Heat isn't a significant part of the process. Anodizing makes the surface harder and impervious to oxidation. After anodizing, but before sealing, a dye can be sprayed, dipped, or brushed onto the part to color it.


So if you have oxidation on a Fuch, at some point the anodization has been worn off or is the changed surface metal worn?
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(RobW @ Jul 7 2009, 08:50 PM) *

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 7 2009, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
the anodizing is a heat tempering process

Anodizing in an electrical process involving cathode/anode interactions in a chemical bath. Heat isn't a significant part of the process. Anodizing makes the surface harder and impervious to oxidation. After anodizing, but before sealing, a dye can be sprayed, dipped, or brushed onto the part to color it.


So if you have oxidation on a Fuch, at some point the anodization has been worn off or is the changed surface metal worn?

The anodizing in extremely thin, and will wear with age or cleaning with abrasive compounds. The wheels CAN be re-anodized, and though it's the best thing to do, it's not cheap!

I've been laboring with this subject for my 73T. It came with pale green dyed/anodized cookie cutters. Other than one spot, on one wheel, the green dye is gone - from over cleaning. Admittedly, on a blood orange car, the green-caste (& it was very light) looked a little funky, but it was the early 70's! Probably won't redo the dye, but will address the oxidation.

These wheels CAN be polished, but without anodizing you'll be redoing the polishing every couple of months. BTDT.
Tom_T
QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 7 2009, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
the anodizing is a heat tempering process

Anodizing in an electrical process involving cathode/anode interactions in a chemical bath. Heat isn't a significant part of the process. Anodizing makes the surface harder and impervious to oxidation. After anodizing, but before sealing, a dye can be sprayed, dipped, or brushed onto the part to color it.


Thanx for the correction/clarification McMark! smile.gif

I actually read up on a company in No. San Diego County which does regular & "deep anodizing" which is supposed to be harder & more durable. They also do chrome & cad plating, but don't know quality as I've never used them.
http://www.prime-plating.com/?utm_source=g...CFRwpawodyX0FBQ

Sea Salt air is especially notorious for causing the white oxidation on the old aluminum sliding windows which were anodized, so that may be what some are seeing if they're close enough to the ocean to catch the on-shore breezes.
Tom_T
Listing of several wheel refinishers on both coasts with contact info. FYI -
http://members.rennlist.com/911pcars/FuchsPolishing.htm
Tom_T
QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 7 2009, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
the anodizing is a heat tempering process

Anodizing in an electrical process involving cathode/anode interactions in a chemical bath. Heat isn't a significant part of the process. Anodizing makes the surface harder and impervious to oxidation. After anodizing, but before sealing, a dye can be sprayed, dipped, or brushed onto the part to color it.


So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them???? confused24.gif

If so, what is the correct dye & finish on that background area??? confused24.gif

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

Click to view attachment
orthobiz
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 8 2009, 12:21 AM) *


So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them???? confused24.gif

If so, what is the correct dye & finish on that background area??? confused24.gif

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

Click to view attachment


I believe the wheel is not colored and the difference in appearance or "shading" is due only to the recessing of the areas between the spokes and in the level of polishing of the spokes. An optical phenomenon.

Paul
Tom_T
I suppose the background could be more of a raw unpolished (maybe just burnished or smoothed after casting/forging) - vs. the semi-polished on the blades & lip/rim.

I'm going over to Al Reed's on Monday to see a newly restored & re-anodized set, & will try to take a pic to post with restoration info. for his shop.

He was saying $140 each to restore/refinish & re-anodize.
6freak
new Fuchs now available through Porsche ...$1030.00 a copy...seen them a Parade ..Awsome
Tom_T
QUOTE(6freak @ Jul 11 2009, 10:37 PM) *

new Fuchs now available through Porsche ...$1030.00 a copy...seen them a Parade ..Awsome


Makes the restoration route sound like a deal at almost $6000 incl. Tax, S&H for 5 of those from Porsche! ...heck, and to think the set of 5 was only $800 in 1973 MY! dry.gif
6freak
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 11 2009, 10:46 PM) *

QUOTE(6freak @ Jul 11 2009, 10:37 PM) *

new Fuchs now available through Porsche ...$1030.00 a copy...seen them a Parade ..Awsome


Makes the restoration route sound like a deal at almost $6000 incl. Tax, S&H for 5 of those from Porsche! ...heck, and to think the set of 5 was only $800 in 1973 MY! dry.gif


Yea there spendy....good luck restoring yours
Tom_T
QUOTE(6freak @ Jul 11 2009, 10:37 PM) *

new Fuchs now available through Porsche ...$1030.00 a copy...seen them a Parade ..Awsome


Are these ones that you're talking about - the 5-lug 6er Fuchs - or the 4-lug 2L Fuchs?? confused24.gif

Is there a link to find them at the Porsche website, since I can't find a page there for it? confused24.gif

btw - $5-6000 for wheels alone on an "at best" $20k value car doesn't make economical sense "Spendy"! shades.gif

However, there are a number of Pros who can get the 4-lug 2L Fuchs back to as or better than new, & some of those apparently have done well at Parade.
smilie_pokal.gif
6freak
Talk`n bout the 5 lugs.....From Porsche Design..Sorry bout the confushion
Tom_T
QUOTE(6freak @ Jul 13 2009, 08:35 AM) *

Talk`n bout the 5 lugs.....From Porsche Design..Sorry bout the confushion


No prob - we all get half-zymers now & again! biggrin.gif

This link has a bunch of wheel refinishers & restorers, mostly in CA.
http://members.rennlist.com/911pcars/FuchsPolishing.htm

I just saw both 5 & 4 lug Fuchs at Al reed's shop & he does excellent work. I was quoted $140 per for the 4-lugs, but the 5-lugs can't be much different.

There's also one group in WA closer to you.

Hope that helps save a bit off the $1060 per new wheel! smile.gif
6freak
If I keep buy`n fancy stuff I`ll never get that 2.2 built .So that kinda money for wheels is out of the ? ...I already have 3 sets of wheels and tires i play with know i dont need more
McMark
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 7 2009, 08:21 PM) *
So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).
Tom_T
QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 22 2009, 03:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 7 2009, 08:21 PM) *
So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).


Yeah - Al has it down, he had loads of finished 5-spoke/lug Fuchs with various finishes & was explaining to me that he has some sort of a fine bead blast or something to get the 2L 4-lug background finish - but anodizes first, because he found if done after it turns dark.

btw - side question - when you do those 2056 Raby kits on the 2L, does that retain the D-jet & at what HP & Torque??? confused24.gif
ME733
QUOTE(ME733 @ Jul 6 2009, 12:55 AM) *

Tom...this is murray.,,I found your questions intresting.,and it was informative to me personally to "discover" facts about my fuchs that I just never thought about. maybe this information will be of use to someone...this helps me toward conferming that I really do have a real 1973 2.0 S. this car has every option except a heated rear window. I must say that I prefer the look of the mahle wheels which were also available. I suppose you could have a choise at the dealer, but I am pretty sure the 2.0 S came with the fuchs as a standard equipment , maxed out, upgraded "super car!!!!" 914. for 1973. I prefer the original FUCHS unpainted look also, could you assist in helping me find the article/ info you mentioned to remove the paint safely. bye1.gif

popcorn[1].gif Tom ...This is murray well the 914 S I have came with three set of rims . one set was the "fuchs" we were discussing, and the other two are "mahle"s. the UPDATE is simply that I have removed the background Black paint on the Fuchs .(why in hell the P.O. had these painted is beyond me). The paint was crappy, which was good ...as it came off resonably easy, with paint stripper and brake kleen. Then I did a little polishing , with a little corse rubbing compound to do some deep cleaning, and then fine polished with fine rubbing compound . The "spokes" were compounded and polished to a new condition, all done by HAND....the "spokes " came highly polished as compaired to the recessed spokes. there was no anidization, or optical illusion factor. The wheels are back to O.E.M. apperance...and look GREAT!. I steamed cleaned (again) both sets of "MAHLE,s". and found an exact color match of (for ) spraying painting these wheels...one set is finished. but I cannot decide which, or what brand of clear coat to use. Seems like there are some choises, but I dont want them hazing over, or turning yellow If the clear coat is crap. I am very fortunate to have gotten so many O.E.M. spares with the car. I appreciate all of you guys input . about "wheels". thanks. If there were a symbol for work your ass off I would have used it here.(polishing). popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Sep 21 2009, 08:29 AM) *

QUOTE(ME733 @ Jul 6 2009, 12:55 AM) *

Tom...this is murray.,,I found your questions intresting.,and it was informative to me personally to "discover" facts about my fuchs that I just never thought about. maybe this information will be of use to someone...this helps me toward conferming that I really do have a real 1973 2.0 S. this car has every option except a heated rear window. I must say that I prefer the look of the mahle wheels which were also available. I suppose you could have a choise at the dealer, but I am pretty sure the 2.0 S came with the fuchs as a standard equipment , maxed out, upgraded "super car!!!!" 914. for 1973. I prefer the original FUCHS unpainted look also, could you assist in helping me find the article/ info you mentioned to remove the paint safely. bye1.gif

popcorn[1].gif Tom ...This is murray well the 914 S I have came with three set of rims . one set was the "fuchs" we were discussing, and the other two are "mahle"s. the UPDATE is simply that I have removed the background Black paint on the Fuchs .(why in hell the P.O. had these painted is beyond me). The paint was crappy, which was good ...as it came off resonably easy, with paint stripper and brake kleen. Then I did a little polishing , with a little corse rubbing compound to do some deep cleaning, and then fine polished with fine rubbing compound . The "spokes" were compounded and polished to a new condition, all done by HAND....the "spokes " came highly polished as compaired to the recessed spokes. there was no anidization, or optical illusion factor. The wheels are back to O.E.M. apperance...and look GREAT!. I steamed cleaned (again) both sets of "MAHLE,s". and found an exact color match of (for ) spraying painting these wheels...one set is finished. but I cannot decide which, or what brand of clear coat to use. Seems like there are some choises, but I dont want them hazing over, or turning yellow If the clear coat is crap. I am very fortunate to have gotten so many O.E.M. spares with the car. I appreciate all of you guys input . about "wheels". thanks. If there were a symbol for work your ass off I would have used it here.(polishing). popcorn[1].gif


Hey Murray.....Glad to hear you got those Fuchs 2L alloys back to the OE look.

I'd ask some of the originality folks about the proper finish for the Mahle 4 lugs, as I thought they were also satin & semi-polished like the Fuchs 2Ls - I think the rim edge & top of ribs were semi-polished, with a satin background. Maybe McMark, Pat Garvey or someone knows???? confused24.gif

I'm heading for the same hard work myself, as I picked up a set of 5 Fuchs 2L alloys for my 914S (...sorry Pat, btw apparently Porsche AG allowed the UK to keep the 914SC marketing name, but no badges as such). A couple of POs &/or Dealer first primed them with the green zinc then painted them Signal Orange or Phoenix Red, then another PO painted silver over that. It appears that the paint may have actually preserved the OE finish - I hope, but that has to wait for other projects to get mine fixed/painted & running! dry.gif
ME733
popcorn[1].gif Tom...I did ask an expert about the "MAHLE" wheels. George Hussey at A.A.. he confermed, some months ago it seems, that they ARE PAINTED.(.a particular silver color which is hard to find.) when I pressure washed them...the paint came off..down to the PRIMER. one set of the MAHLEs is back to original(without the clearcoat so far). I think I will try to see how they look with just the topmost of the ribs HIGHLY polished. I don't want to become a wheel polishing expert as it,s dam hard work just by hand, but I didn't want to use anything mechanical(up to this point anyway) just because it would have been easy to overpolish the "FUCHS "and go beyond the original apperance. popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Sep 21 2009, 08:20 PM) *

popcorn[1].gif Tom...I did ask an expert about the "MAHLE" wheels. George Hussey at A.A.. he confermed, some months ago it seems, that they ARE PAINTED.(.a particular silver color which is hard to find.) when I pressure washed them...the paint came off..down to the PRIMER. one set of the MAHLEs is back to original(without the clearcoat so far). I think I will try to see how they look with just the topmost of the ribs HIGHLY polished. I don't want to become a wheel polishing expert as it,s dam hard work just by hand, but I didn't want to use anything mechanical(up to this point anyway) just because it would have been easy to overpolish the "FUCHS "and go beyond the original apperance. popcorn[1].gif

agree.gif ...yeah, best to go easy on them, esp. given their price & limited availability! I need to find a very gentle solvent or remover for that green zinc-oxide primer & paint on mine, so I can save the underlying OE finish & hope it's in good shape. huh.gif
Bleyseng
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 22 2009, 03:39 PM) *

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 22 2009, 03:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 7 2009, 08:21 PM) *
So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).


Yeah - Al has it down, he had loads of finished 5-spoke/lug Fuchs with various finishes & was explaining to me that he has some sort of a fine bead blast or something to get the 2L 4-lug background finish - but anodizes first, because he found if done after it turns dark.

btw - side question - when you do those 2056 Raby kits on the 2L, does that retain the D-jet & at what HP & Torque??? confused24.gif

A 2056 Raby kit is about 115hp with the Djet...makes the 914 a different car.
Tom_T
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 21 2009, 09:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 22 2009, 03:39 PM) *

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 22 2009, 03:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 7 2009, 08:21 PM) *
So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).


Yeah - Al has it down, he had loads of finished 5-spoke/lug Fuchs with various finishes & was explaining to me that he has some sort of a fine bead blast or something to get the 2L 4-lug background finish - but anodizes first, because he found if done after it turns dark.

btw - side question - when you do those 2056 Raby kits on the 2L, does that retain the D-jet & at what HP & Torque??? confused24.gif

A 2056 Raby kit is about 115hp with the Djet...makes the 914 a different car.

How much is the torque spiked? confused24.gif
...since that's what gives you the pulling power to get'r up & going & passing at speed!
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(ME733 @ Sep 21 2009, 09:20 PM) *

popcorn[1].gif Tom...I did ask an expert about the "MAHLE" wheels. George Hussey at A.A.. he confermed, some months ago it seems, that they ARE PAINTED.(.a particular silver color which is hard to find.) when I pressure washed them...the paint came off..down to the PRIMER. one set of the MAHLEs is back to original(without the clearcoat so far). I think I will try to see how they look with just the topmost of the ribs HIGHLY polished. I don't want to become a wheel polishing expert as it,s dam hard work just by hand, but I didn't want to use anything mechanical(up to this point anyway) just because it would have been easy to overpolish the "FUCHS "and go beyond the original apperance. popcorn[1].gif


George, as usual, is correct. Mahles WERE painted, though the ribs were anodized.

I remember (years ago) someone saying that a Glasurit paint for BMW wheels would be about the same, but don't hold me to that & I didn't write doen the code.

BTW guys, can we keep this thread on topic, please? Raby engines belong on a different forum. Let's keep it as pure as possible.
Pat
Bleyseng
I have used Wurth's silver as its a close match to the Mahle rims silver.
ME733
popcorn[1].gif George H at A.A. has the exact wurth color.....Tom, in your case ,with many coats of paint and primer to remove maybe the solution is to GLASS BEAD them. It,s the least distructive, easest, and best thing to do..(.the walnut shells etc etc can be TOO abrasive.) : by the way my primer color was a light BLUE. popcorn[1].gif
davep
In my experience there were 3 front brake rotors used in production, with the mid version being a half step between the others. The first rotor (still available) is for the early cars with the early (single bleeder) calipers and struts. The last rotor (still available) is for the late cars with the late (dual bleeder) calipers and struts and is hub-centric. The mid rotor (not available soon after the late rotor came out) is for the late cars with the late (dual bleeder) calipers and struts and was not hub-centric; these appeared on late 1972 MY production with the introduction of the new struts and calipers, and were discontinued during the 1973 MY. It would be very rare to find one today. If I can find the part #'s then I'll edit this post.

Anodizing is essentially the creation of a hard oxide layer on aluminum, and this oxide is also known as ceramic. Cast aluminum parts are generally too porous for anodizing, hence the Pedrini and Mahle rims were painted. There are special primers used on the bare metal, and these are usually colored. The magnesium gasburner Mahle 5 bolt rims had a turquoise primer under the silver paint.

The alloy-wheel bolts (the long ones) are steel, with a copper plate layer, and a top cadmium plate layer. Often, when the cad layer is worn away, you will see a green/blue layer underneath that is the corroded copper layer.

I believe that both Pedrini and Fuchs came in non-hubcentric versions. Pedrini rims came out early before the change to the calipers and struts, so were for the first rotor version. Fuchs came later, and were initially used with the mid version rotor. After the hubcentric rotors came out all rims were available to match.
ME733
popcorn[1].gif Hello davep....Intresting obversavions in your post. I think you did not mention the type of aluminum of the FUCHS. I am positive they are forged aluminum....I finally broke down and got out the "porting tools" ,and flap sanders, so I could get the backside of the wheels down to bare aluminum. getting off thirty six years or roadgrime, refosselized oil, multiple wheelweights, and glue, etc.etc. was just not possable by hand.as well as multiple soakings with "mag wheel cleaner''and paint stripper . There were some wheel mouting scars and abrasions that needed smoothing. The wheels are forged. they just didn't sand easy like a cast aluminum material. it took at least as much effort to do the backside/inside of the wheels as the fronts. now they too look great!., I balanced the wheels myself and the maximun weight was ..1.1/4 .OZ..! .polished up the s.s.wheel center caps which are perfect....and now i need to get 20 chrome headed new wheel studs. AS ...you said...the originals lost their finish. I wonder if they would look decent with black paint, or black plastic caps. or maybe paint them with the "MAHLE '' paint....I will find out soon. popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
Yes Murray, the Fuchs 2L were listed as "Forged Alloy Wheels" & therefore also much stronger in torsion than the Perdrini's or Mahles, as well as being the lightest at 10.1 lbs.

I don't want to blast the Fuchs I got, because that will strip the anodized layer, which is very thin. I'll just have to try some various paint strippers/removers/solvents &/or acetone - which the seller used to carefully take off the silver paint on 3 & a test strip of the orange/primer on one of those.

From that & a few placers where the paint flaked off, the underlying finish looks very good to excellent, so I'm hoping patience & care on my part, will save me $140 per wheel to have Al Reed out here strip & refinish/re-anodize them! smile.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Sep 23 2009, 10:50 PM) *

popcorn[1].gif George H at A.A. has the exact wurth color.....Tom, in your case ,with many coats of paint and primer to remove maybe the solution is to GLASS BEAD them. It,s the least distructive, easest, and best thing to do..(.the walnut shells etc etc can be TOO abrasive.) : by the way my primer color was a light BLUE. popcorn[1].gif


btw Murry, double check the price of the Wurth Silver at Performance Products (with their weekly sale at 10-15%), Pelican, etc., to make sure you can get the best price. In your case, you're close enough to AA to go pick it up & save shipping, so it may not make a difference, but....... confused24.gif
ME733
popcorn[1].gif TOM, ..Is this of any intrest?...my O.E.M. set of "fuchs" are not HUB CENTRIC as discussed ...but LUG centric. The front HUBS on my car are "HUB CENTRIC"...the rear hubs are "LUG centric."..Question???...were or are there rear hub centric hubs?...when were the rear hub centric hubs available?....and BOTH SETS of the Mahle wheels...all 8, eight... are HUB centric in design....were the "MAHLE" wheels available ...AT or AFTER...the fuchs were available?. If they were only available somewhat later,(1974?) it would explain why they are hub centric. ANY idea on the history ?....thanks ..murray.... popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Oct 2 2009, 11:13 AM) *

popcorn[1].gif TOM, ..Is this of any intrest?...my O.E.M. set of "fuchs" are not HUB CENTRIC as discussed ...but LUG centric. The front HUBS on my car are "HUB CENTRIC"...the rear hubs are "LUG centric."..Question???...were or are there rear hub centric hubs?...when were the rear hub centric hubs available?....and BOTH SETS of the Mahle wheels...all 8, eight... are HUB centric in design....were the "MAHLE" wheels available ...AT or AFTER...the fuchs were available?. If they were only available somewhat later,(1974?) it would explain why they are hub centric. ANY idea on the history ?....thanks ..murray.... popcorn[1].gif


Murry, as far as I've researched - & others who may know better can chime in here too -

1. The hubs were only hub-centric in the front & integral with the disk brake rotors, but the rear rotors may have had the end-shaft/driveshaft hub extend through the rear disk rotor at some point for the same effect (anyone else?).

2. Hub centric & matching wheel issue came in for the `73 MY, but there was some carry over of the early 72 MY front hubs on the early-73 MY builds to use up the stock.

3. They had non-hub-centric ("plain flat back") wheels of all types ending with part # -00, whereas the hub-centric ("back machined for hub-centric lip") ended in -01; but both were used in the early 73 MY, which caused some mismatch problems due to inattentive assembly at the factory, wherein the 00 wheels would not seat on the new hub-centric hubs & posed a serious hazard of loosing a wheel/tire.

So in 12/73 they issued the BO (2L with Fuchs 2L Alloys) & BH (all others) Recalls as noted above in this thread a few pages back, after the problem was discovered, to have all the 914s checked for proper wheel matching fitment.

4. From what Pat Garvey has said here, the "new" Fuchs 4 lug 2L Forged Alloy Wheels were available in the late 72 MY (early 72) before the 73 MY started. According to most of the books on 914s, the factory & sales literature, etc., they all or almost all indicated that both the Fuchs 2L & 4 lug Mahle "Baby Gas Burner" Alloys became available for the 73 MY, but it makes sense that they might have made some available in advance of that auto MY release in Aug/Sept.

5. Those early releases could have been intentionally made as #-00 variety for pre-73 MY models' application on new & used/aftermarket wheels for the older MY's 914s, as well as the #-01 for the "new" hub-centric 73 MY 914s. The factory probably intended that the latter went on all 73 MY 914s exclusively, but they were either not in stock or they workers got careless on the mix-n-match problem - who knows why/how?

6. I've recently seen the Fuchs & Mahles & Pedrinis as both -00 & -01 varieties now for sale on-line here, TheSamba, etc. - so they produced the 4 lug alloy wheels of all varieties in both versions.

7. As far as I know, the "standard" or "base level" OE Steel wheels for the 73 MY 1.7Ls were changed to the "mag-look" 4-point star pattern design, which was only produced in the hub-centric stamping, since that was one type of tooling, whereas the alloys had to have the inset ring machined into it after forging or casting as an extra process, so it could be easily left "flat back" & stamped as an -00.

Hope this helps! smile.gif

ME733
popcorn[1].gif ...YES TOM this information does help........HOWEVER.......does this mean the "FUCHS" with (mfg.serial # ending in ...00...) are going to have a FITMENT PROBLEM?..on hub centric front hubs?.....I mean is there a clearance problem,(somewhere) as indicated In your information and as per the factory concerns?...I mounted the wheels / tires, but can see nor "feel" any problem?...WHERE or what is the SPECIFIC problem?...thanks ..murray. popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Oct 3 2009, 07:03 AM) *

popcorn[1].gif ...YES TOM this information does help........HOWEVER.......does this mean the "FUCHS" with (mfg.serial # ending in ...00...) are going to have a FITMENT PROBLEM?..on hub centric front hubs?.....I mean is there a clearance problem,(somewhere) as indicated In your information and as per the factory concerns?...I mounted the wheels / tires, but can see nor "feel" any problem?...WHERE or what is the SPECIFIC problem?...thanks ..murray. popcorn[1].gif


Yes Murry, they absolutely will NOT fit properly against the face of the hub/disk-rotor IF your front hubs are hub-centric (also called "self-centering" hubs)! Do NOT run a -00 wheel of any flavor on hub-centric front hubs/disk-rotors.

This is because the small lip of the ring around the center hub/dust-cap which sticks out a few mm's from the hub/disk-rotor's surface will hold the face away from fully seating on the hub/disk-rotor, which can then "wobble" that amount & damage the lug bolts, rotor, etc. - costing a bunch of $'s to fix, even if there is never an accident as a result.

The inset on the back of the wheel shown in this pic below, shos where the lip fits into, in order for the rest of the wheel back-face to seat properly & flat on the hub-centric front hubs/rotors.

So first check to see if you have a hub-centric front rotor, then act accordingly - i.e.: use only the -01 type wheels if hub-centric, or either -00 or -01 if not. If the PO had ever changed the front rotors due to wear - or if you do yourself, chances are that even the non-hub-centric hubs/rotors up front are/will be hub-centric replacements, since that's the proper spec for your 73 2L (914S smile.gif ).

Go to the web link below, then drop down to the BO & BH Recalls below, go to the right columns & print-out the pages of the actual recall letters sent by VoA to the Porsche+Audi Dealers on the 2 wheel fitment recalls. Do the same for the HO Recall on the battery & fuel lines problem too.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm

Then call PCNA - which is based right near you in Atlanta (you lucky devil! biggrin.gif ), and go to option #3 & ask them to check your 914's VIN to find out if either the BO &/or HO were ever performed on your car. I have a PCNA Porsche regional service manager coming out to inspect mine later this month.

If not, then Porsche is still obligated to do the work listed on the VoA letters at a local Porsche Dealership AT NO COST, since these were NHSTA required safety recalls. Have them do the HO Recall to replace the rubber fuel lines,battery top, hold downs, add a battery pad, etc. (most/all parts for this one are still available).

Although I don't know what they'll do for the Fuchs 2L wheels, since they're NLA, but maybe they'll work out a swap of your -00 set for a proper used -01 set. BTW - as the recalls say - a full set was 5 - including the spare, NOT 4 as many have, so insist on that & have them take your 4 -00 Fuchs 2Ls + Steelie Spare! I know it may be a disappointment after spending all that time to get your Fuchs 2Ls into top shape, but now you can insist on equal condition replacements.

Your 2 sets of Mahles may have been the PO's attempt to remedy the wheels fitment problem - or the original selling Porsche Dealer's. Perhaps the PO didn't know that he/she could have the recall performed, or that it even existed.

Sorry, but - if the BO Recall was done on your car, then I'd suggest that you only run on the -01 Mahles until you can buy or swap your -00 Fuchs 2L Alloys for a proper used set of the -01 variety. sad.gif

Proper Part #...-01 Fuchs Wheel at back face:

Click to view attachment

Hope this helps!
BTW - I sent you a PM yesterday or Thursday smile.gif
JeffBowlsby
The correct link for the recall info is now: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

PS I am informed that it was too many years ago and Porsche is not legally obligated to honor those old recalls any more. Something about a statute of limitations...and besides the parts are NLA...
Tom_T
QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 4 2009, 09:19 AM) *

The correct link for the recall info is now: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

PS I am informed that it was too many years ago and Porsche is not legally obligated to honor those old recalls any more. Something about a statute of limitations...and besides the parts are NLA...

Thanx for the update Jeff -
.....have the other addys for your excellent 914 info website also changed?
........if so, then maybe you could post something here at 914world with the new main one & key info sub-pages?

As to Porsche honoring them - YES they will & are required to by NHTSA & DOT etc.

I have an open order for my 73 2L to have the HO Recall (battery/fuel lines) to be performed whenever I get it to a dealer.

Re; the BO Recall for 73 2L Fuchs Wheels & Hub-centric problem discussed here - I also have a PCNA Regional Service Manager - Rick Perkins (who resto's his own 914 a while back & really nice guy!) - coming out to inspect mine later in Oct., so I'll just verify whether & how they'd perform such a recall even at today's late date. smile.gif

Furthermore, the VoA letters to the Porsche+Audi dealers which you've linked on your recalls page all say something to the effect that: "...this recall never expires....", which pretty much backs up the above.

btw - we've already established that neither of the applicable HO nor BO Recalls were never done on mine, but since I bought it used in 12/75 (yes 34 years ago) WITHOUT the proper Fuchs wheels on it (had Rivieras & steelie spare) - PCNA cannot change the wheels or offer a free set (DANG!). I'm just going through the process with PCNA to get documentation/letter on what was & wasn't done on mine for resto documentation (I know, I'm too anal on the records end!). I'll post anything I find out for general info from him.

type.gif So you may want to add a note to your 914 Recalls webpage, which indicates this fact for other 914 owners. You can double check this with Jolene Constant or Heather Cooper at PCNA Customer Commitment (former did my HO & latter BO), &/or email me for Rick Perkins' cell # to discuss same with him.
ME733
popcorn[1].gif ...TOM...So in my wonderment ..about WHY these original "FUCHS" wheels fit..(and do not look like the photograph you showed, of the inside step cut, )..FOR HUB_CENTRIC hubs ..I decided to find out why...( sorry no photographs/I am photo-graph -computer-interface challenged_hope to be resolved soon).....I measured the INSIDE DIAMENTER and DEPH of the "FUCHS" wheels....I measured the OUTSIDE diamenter AND HEIGHT of the "HUB CENTRIC" front hubs....Here,s the result...the CENTERBORE of the "FUCHS" wheels is ..3.180.ths (.approx...81mm.)...AND the depth cut is .550 ths. The "HUB CENTRIC" Hub is 3.090 ths (approx. 78.5 mm)...and the hub centric....hub stands .525 ths above the level surface of the rotor, lug-bolt, mounting holes......THEREFORE : there is .090 ths (approx 2.5 mm) clearance in inside diamenter ...AND... there is .025 ths of clearance inside the wheel to the top of the "hub"....That is why they FIT!...and I would say they look like factory machined , cuts, and finish , inside the wheel....Maybe these were sent back to "FUCHS" remachined, to fit the hubcentric hubs,?. ... AND I measured the "mahle" wheels also.. they have a .002 to .005 ths..inside / outside clearance , mating between the "hub and wheel". tight fit but enough!....BTW...my front disc calapers have two bleed ports....and the rears have only one.(at the top of the calaper..which is all you need anyway)...Just like yours. popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Oct 4 2009, 10:52 AM) *

popcorn[1].gif ...TOM...So in my wonderment ..about WHY these original "mahle " wheels fit..(and do not look like the photograph you showed, of the inside step cut, )..FOR HUB_CENTRIC hubs ..I decided to find out why...( sorry no photographs/I am photo-graph -computer-interface challenged_hope to be resolved soon).....I measured the INSIDE DIAMENTER and DEPH of the "fuchs" wheels....I measured the OUTSIDE diamenter AND HEIGHT of the "HUB CENTRIC" front hubs....Here,s the result...the CENTERBORE of the "FUCHS" wheels is ..3.180.ths (.approx...81mm.)...AND the depth cut is .550 ths. The "HUB CENTRIC" Hub is 3.090 ths (approx. 78.5 mm)...and the hub centric....hub stands .525 ths above the level surface of the rotor, lug-bolt, mounting holes......THEREFORE : there is .090 ths (approx 2.5 mm) clearance in inside diamenter ...AND... there is .025 ths of clearance inside the wheel to the top of the "hub"....That is why they FIT!...and I would say they look like factory machined , cuts, and finish , inside the wheel....Maybe these were sent back to "FUCHS" remachined, to fit the hubcentric hubs,?. ... AND I measured the "mahle" wheels also.. they have a .002 to .005 ths..inside / outside clearance , mating between the "hub and wheel". tight fit but enough!....BTW...my front disc calapers have two bleed ports....and the rears have only one.(at the top of the calaper..which is all you need anyway)...Just like yours. popcorn[1].gif


Interesting analysis Murry. popcorn[1].gif
....wish I had enough time to just get to clearing out the garage, but too much Biz stuff right now! dry.gif

Do I understand correctly - that your 2 Mahle sets of alloy wheels are not the hub-centric -01 part nos., but have enough center hole clearance overall?? confused24.gif

....or are they both -01 parts nos. with the machined step?

Any of the optional 914 alloy wheels with -00 part nos. could have been re-machined with the groove/step - either here in the USA, or back in Europe - because the BO/BH Recalls require the dealers to return the conforming wheels to Porsche - so who knows where they went!? confused24.gif

Some people also have since had the -00 wheels re-machined for the hub-centric inset as well.

2 bleeders F?R were "Late" & 1 bleeders F/R were "Early" style/fitment Brake Calipers, & late 72 MY & early 73 MY apparently had "Mixed Fitment" as they used up the existing stock (those frugal Germans biggrin.gif ).
ME733
popcorn[1].gif TOM...the ...FUCHS forged wheels..(just one orig. set)..is machined with the clearances I described......The "MAHLE" wheels....(both sets)... END with a ..00...number...and are MACHINED (factory machining).. to FIT ..."HUB CENTRIC"..HUBS...with the .002ths -to -.004ths clearance..between the inside of the wheel ...and outside of the "HUB".....Does this help?...murray popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(ME733 @ Oct 4 2009, 07:43 PM) *

popcorn[1].gif TOM...the ...FUCHS forged wheels..(just one orig. set)..is machined with the clearances I described......The "MAHLE" wheels....(both sets)... END with a ..00...number...and are MACHINED (factory machining).. to FIT ..."HUB CENTRIC"..HUBS...with the .002ths -to -.004ths clearance..between the inside of the wheel ...and outside of the "HUB".....Does this help?...murray popcorn[1].gif


Got it on the Mahles Murry.

Are the Fuchs -00 or -01 P.N.s?? confused24.gif

I would guess that there is really no way to know for sure, if after-the-fact machining on any -00 wheels is by the "factory" (Fuchs, Mahle, Pedrini, etc.), or if it was done by another machine shop.

However, my guess is that it would be cost prohibitive to ship 1.5x to Europe & back (1st with car, then a round trip) for a set of wheels, just to have them machined for the self-centering hub's lips, so that they would most likely have been done by an aftermarket fix here in the US/CAN, or whichever country of first shipment/sale of the car in question.

I know that I've seen ads online where the seller states that they had the set of "xxx" -00 wheels for sale, machined for the hub-centric hub fitment.

BTW - the non-hub-centric or non-self-centering hubs on the 914/4s, VWs & similar hub cars were not lug-centric - since there are no studs on which to "center" the wheels! sad.gif

My method was to sit cross-legged, prop the tire/wheel on my legs & forhead while guiding the lug bolt in an upper hole to get it centered - what a pain in the A!!!! dry.gif

Fortunately today they sell the brass centering studs to ease the process. smile.gif
JeffBowlsby
Hi Tom, I did post the website links update a week ago...Some may have missed it in the main forum:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=99714

I hope you will let us know if you actually get the recall work performed, this has been discussed here several times over the years and no one has received the recall work at this late date, regardless of what the recall paperwork says.

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Oct 4 2009, 09:58 AM) *

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 4 2009, 09:19 AM) *

The correct link for the recall info is now: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

PS I am informed that it was too many years ago and Porsche is not legally obligated to honor those old recalls any more. Something about a statute of limitations...and besides the parts are NLA...

Thanx for the update Jeff -
.....have the other addys for your excellent 914 info website also changed?
........if so, then maybe you could post something here at 914world with the new main one & key info sub-pages?

As to Porsche honoring them - YES they will & are required to by NHTSA & DOT etc.

I have an open order for my 73 2L to have the HO Recall (battery/fuel lines) to be performed whenever I get it to a dealer.

Re; the BO Recall for 73 2L Fuchs Wheels & Hub-centric problem discussed here - I also have a PCNA Regional Service Manager - Rick Perkins (who resto's his own 914 a while back & really nice guy!) - coming out to inspect mine later in Oct., so I'll just verify whether & how they'd perform such a recall even at today's late date. smile.gif

Furthermore, the VoA letters to the Porsche+Audi dealers which you've linked on your recalls page all say something to the effect that: "...this recall never expires....", which pretty much backs up the above.

btw - we've already established that neither of the applicable HO nor BO Recalls were never done on mine, but since I bought it used in 12/75 (yes 34 years ago) WITHOUT the proper Fuchs wheels on it (had Rivieras & steelie spare) - PCNA cannot change the wheels or offer a free set (DANG!). I'm just going through the process with PCNA to get documentation/letter on what was & wasn't done on mine for resto documentation (I know, I'm too anal on the records end!). I'll post anything I find out for general info from him.

type.gif So you may want to add a note to your 914 Recalls webpage, which indicates this fact for other 914 owners. You can double check this with Jolene Constant or Heather Cooper at PCNA Customer Commitment (former did my HO & latter BO), &/or email me for Rick Perkins' cell # to discuss same with him.

Tom_T
QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 5 2009, 01:49 PM) *

Hi Tom, I did post the website links update a week ago...Some may have missed it in the main forum:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=99714

I hope you will let us know if you actually get the recall work performed, this has been discussed here several times over the years and no one has received the recall work at this late date, regardless of what the recall paperwork says.
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Oct 4 2009, 09:58 AM) *

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 4 2009, 09:19 AM) *





Sorry - I was one of those who missed it! dry.gif Thanx for the alert & link!

For All:

BO & BH ALLOY WHEELS RECALL:

I would think that subsequent work or long term damage on the BO/BH wheel fitment recalls for anyone who never had it done & drove a 914 for 37+/- years on the "wrong wheels", &/or those like mine which no longer have the OE Fuchs 2L wheels, would negate Porsche doing those 2 recalls at this late date.

If they did one, then PCNA would probably just offer some negotiated compensation in lieu - with a full release of Porsche's liability of course, and let the owner source their own -01 wheels on the open market; or else offer alternative wheels with the proper fit.

However, for the groups' info., I'll post here any letter/docs. which PCNA provides to me on the matter "for the record".

HO RECALL FOR BATTERY & FUEL LINES ON ALL 914S:

If others want to make a run at Porsche/PCNA to get this done for their 914 at this late date, PM me & I'll give you names & contacts to pursue it, so we can see if they really will do it! huh.gif

As to the HO Recall - battery covers, pads, hold down parts, fuel/etc. hoses covered under that "All 914s" battery acid/fuel lines recall - are all still readily available, such that they could do them if followed through by a current owner. That is, even if some/most aren't "Genuine Porsche" parts now, but even "back in the day" they often used an Audi or VW full-top battery cover, from what I understand from others who had it done back then.

However, those parts are also still available at not too much cost to us regular folks thru PP, AA, etc. - so I think many may just do it themselves.

Some others may have had long term lack of notification problems - e.g.: because of their records problems at PCNA on my 914, I never got the HO Recall notification from them since I bought it back in 12/75, nor did the PO back then have one to pass along to me. In such cases, I don't know their liability (if any) to also replace the battery tray/support & any other "collateral damage"?

If/when I get it done, I'll update here &/or do a fresh post (since it's off-topic & we don't want to give poor ole Pat a coronary! biggrin.gif ) - as well as to post any sort of an "official" letter or doc. from PCNA in regards to those recalls - for the info of all 914 owners here! smile.gif

However, since mine has been holding down blocks in the garage for 24+ years now, it really needs them all & more replaced before running/driving - plus the extent of body repair & resto will most probably be a full strip job! So I don't know if it will even be worth having it towed first to the Porsche dealer to do the HO Recall while the car is still intact, then to my mechanic to pull the drivetrain/etc., then to the body shop, etc......get my drift!? dry.gif

I'll be playing that by ear, weighing cost-benefit-savings & if it's necessary to get the "official" HO sticker at this late date in terms of authenticity, safety assurances &/or future value, etc. - as I spend big bucks to restore it???? ...vs. just doing it all myself?? unsure.gif

Any thoughts on that last aspect, from Jeff or others? confused24.gif

(I've now got most parts in hand & tray/support just in case I do it myself!)
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