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Full Version: so close.. 2.0 weber 44s drives and misses
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gotxqss
So did some searching.. Did some reading.. Have had this car for awhile and finally got off the ass to start tinkerin!

Cars a 75 with a 2.0 from another car.. Could be stock could be rebuilt I have no clue.. Guessing its a stock or mildly touched motor.. I had a buddy come over and get it idling pretty good.

Set float levels
Cleaned and put back together
Set linkage that sorta stuff

Just a quik list of the main parts as there might be a section that's just flatout needs attention .

Weber 44idf
32 venturi
175 air (I think these need to be higher?)
55 idles
F11 et
140 main

So anyway hopefully 1 of those things will standout to try to get me closer..

Haven't driven the car alll that much but from what I have. It will idle and rev well, the super low speed low rpm stuff feels decent but the midrange has stumbles. At a steady cruise it will pop as well. If I get in the gas pretty hard down low(under 2500rpm) it will be pretty dead till about 4k and then pulls really well to 6k.

So of course something is off but I don't have a weber guru here in vegas that I know of that can just handle it so now im asking for help..

Maybe there are some things that im missing to get me closer..

I do have 50 idles and 135 mains laying around..

Thanks guys.. Ill keep up and get this handled!!!!!!
jmill
This is what I'd start with:

Vents - 32
idle - 50
Main - 130 - try your 135's they'll work
A/C - 200
ET - F11

From my experience the F11 doesn't like the smaller A/C jets. That said, I have run 175 A/C's with the F11. It was with smaller vents on a smaller engine with smaller mains. Use the 200 as your baseline.

What pump jets are you running?

When you say pops at cruise does it pop through the carb or exhaust? What dizzy and advance are you running?

Popping at cruise could mean you have linkage issues. What linkage are you running? Any pics?

You might want to try an F7 ET. It helps smooth out lean transition issues. I'd stick with just bumping up your A/C's and reducing your mains for now. It takes time and tweaking to get it just right.
zeezee
I have a 2.0L with 44s (and at sea level).
With the stock 44 setup:
(36mm vent / 135 main / 175 air / F11 / 50 idle)
I never got them adjusted properly (see http://www.piercemanifolds.com/Addendum.htm ) and popping thru all RPMs.

I rejetted according to the "Weber Tech Manual" and others:
(36 vent / 1.55 Main / 2.00 air / F11 / .60 idle)
Now it adjusts as recommended and it runs great thru all RPMs.
I didn't spend any time or $$ trying any leaner combinations.

Timing set to about 34* BTDC @3200 RPM (see http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...iming_carbs.htm )

Sadly, I get about 12 MPG. Maybe I should choke it down some.
Good luck.
r_towle
what you are feeling is probably a very rich setup.
To start with 44mm webers are to big for a 2.0 liter.
I think the smallest stock venturi you can get is the 32mm...but you can get aircooled.net to make you smaller ones...I would

Get a much larger air correction jet. start at 200
Get smaller idles and smaller main jets.
50 idles should be ok.
mains...well as you make the main smaller, and the air correction jet bigger, you start to tune the motor and lean out the main circuit.

Two ways to KNOW you are right.
Get it on a dyno, or drive it.
You will need to learn how to read plugs properly and you can get it tuned pretty damn close.
Plug reading off the main circuit requires that you run it hard (highway) then kill it prior to the idle circuit moving any fuel...
Its like this.

Take it out on the highway...keep it in fourth gear for a few mile so you keep the rpm's above 3k.
turn key off to kill motor...yet keep the steering lock from engaging.
Best and safest way to do that is to rig a toggle switch to the power lead at the coil...just make a temp one that you can remove once you are done...loosing steering at 60mph is not cool.

So, anyways..run it hard for a few miles...3-5 miles.
kill motor
pull into rest area with motor off
NEVER IDLE
pull plugs and examine the color

After 10 or 15 times, with jet changes...you will get it.
OR
Bring it to a dyno shop and have them do it.

Rich
jmill
When running the larger vents on a smaller engine you have less velocity through the carb. Less velocity equals less DP on the jets. Which basically means you have less suction pulling fuel into the throat of the carb. You can compensate for this by running larger mains and idles. You can get it to work but lousy MPG is one of the side effects.
ME733
Well YOU and everyone else is at somewhat of a disadvantage in giving some help because the "litely touched" engine may have more of a camshaft than you suppose...you could do a complete camcheck /duration/ lift/etc in the car...but it,s going to be tough and probably not very accurate....you can however check valve lift fairly easily..this will give YOU and some of us an IDEA/sort of a clue...of what the charistics the engine will have....think of the camshaft as the "computer/brain" that dictates air flow into and out of the engine.....having the CARBURATORS...set up..(jetted etc) to maximize overall performance...is even harder with a cammed up engine....and one end or the other of the RPM range is not , in all likehood , going to to be ideal....so with this said....lets venture a guess at your problem,s....1. the 44 webers will work just fine.2. the 32mm venturies will be ok.3.the 175 air corrections are good. 4. the 55 idle jets appear correct..("your buddy got it idling good")..5....the f-11 emulsion tube is TYPICAL for a street driven engine...6. the ..140 main jets...for a "stock range camshaft" are JUST TOO DAMN BIG......your clue is "it does not pull,and is flat , untill RPMs exceed 3000 "....THIS COULD be due to the camshaft/duration,etc.....or because IT,S TOO RICH at lower RPMs....7. install 115 main jets, without ANY OTHER CHANGES to your existing setup.(suggestion...never make more than one change at a time)..then test...8. the "popping " is probably an exhaust leak ....OR insuffent VALVE LASH when the engine is hot.most noticeable upon hard acceleration .9. it runs good above 3000 rpm,s up to 6000 rpm,s...did it pull strong over 5000 rpm,s?..if so this is another indication that the camshaft is not stock. and your bottom end rpm range will suffer(as in flat spots).probably.TRY USING the 115 main jet size ,get some plug readings and let us know the results. bye1.gif
porsche914gt
I saw this vendor that has 44 IDF throttle bodies 28-38.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=671016
jmill
His buddy got it to idle ok because he could adjust the mixture screws. As soon as the butterflies open your on the progression ports. The only way to adjust the mixure when your on the progression ports is an idle jet change. Your on the progresion ports until 3K. If your rich above idle the only way to lean it out is with an idle jet change. The engine falling on its face above idle is a good indication that he's too rich or he has timing issues. It's true you can run the smaller A/C jet with a smaller main jet. I've done it. The problem with that is he already has 2 sets of main jets that would work great with an A/C jet around 2.00 for his carb and vent size. Another problem is that the only stock vehicle I know of that ran the IDF with an F11 is the 1600 cc Fiat. It came stock with 40 IDFs, 125 mains, 2.10 A/C jets and 32 vents. Thirdly is the F11 was designed around the 2.00 A/C jet. The engineers used 2.00 as the baseline. BTW - It was also designed to have lean transition properties. The F7 was designed to enrichen the transition. He can reinvent the wheel and play around with the 175 A/C jets or he can run a know good combo. I recommended the 130 main to keep him a tad on the rich side and make up for a questionable cam. His 135's with the 2.00 A/C jets will work alot better than his current combo but he'll be rich.
r_towle
QUOTE(jmill @ Jul 11 2009, 08:58 PM) *

His buddy got it to idle ok because he could adjust the mixture screws. As soon as the butterflies open your on the progression ports. The only way to adjust the mixure when your on the progression ports is an idle jet change. Your on the progresion ports until 3K. If your rich above idle the only way to lean it out is with an idle jet change. The engine falling on its face above idle is a good indication that he's too rich or he has timing issues. It's true you can run the smaller A/C jet with a smaller main jet. I've done it. The problem with that is he already has 2 sets of main jets that would work great with an A/C jet around 2.00 for his carb and vent size. Another problem is that the only stock vehicle I know of that ran the IDF with an F11 is the 1600 cc Fiat. It came stock with 40 IDFs, 125 mains, 2.10 A/C jets and 32 vents. Thirdly is the F11 was designed around the 2.00 A/C jet. The engineers used 2.00 as the baseline. BTW - It was also designed to have lean transition properties. The F7 was designed to enrichen the transition. He can reinvent the wheel and play around with the 175 A/C jets or he can run a know good combo. I recommended the 130 main to keep him a tad on the rich side and make up for a questionable cam. His 135's with the 2.00 A/C jets will work alot better than his current combo but he'll be rich.


I dont know who you are, but I would like to, you sound smart.

Would you please explain the difference in the emulsion tubes.
At the end of the day, they add air bubbles to the fuel.
What are the differences? more holes? bigger bubble?
And, what are the ranges...large to small holes, large to small bubbles?

Rich
jmill
Thanks, I don't know how smart I am but I'll tell you what I know.

I wish I had more info on all the E/Ts but I've only had experience with 2. The F11 and the F7. They are the only 2 that were readily available to me. They are also night and day apart. I can give specifics for the F7 and F11 and since they are so different you can understand how they all work.

As air passes through the carb it pulls air and fuel from the fuel wells. I don't want to get crazy with the venturi principle and D/P but as velocity increases pressure decreases. The faster the air flows through the carb the more fuel and air it pulls from the fuel wells due to differential pressure. (Thats why big vents on little engines don't work so well. You don't get adequate DP). The mains and A/C jets control amounts. The E/T controls how the air and fuel are mixed.

F7 = Small outside diameter which leaves lots of room for fuel in the fuel well. It has holes placed low on the tube. Air pulled from the A/C jet has to pass through a majority of fuel in the fuel well before it's pulled into the venturi. This design leads to great off the line fuel availability and a richer transition. It's more sensitive to fuel level changes in the fuel well and float bowl. Larger A/C jets need to be used to avoid high velocity enrichment.

F11 = The E/T itself has a large diameter and it leaves less space in the fuel well for fuel. The E/T also has holes placed high on the tube. Air pulled from the A/C jet passes through minimal fuel in the fuel well. This design leads to leaner transitions and less fuel available in the fuel wells when you stomp on it. It is also less sensitive to fuel level changes in the fuel well and float bowl. A/C jets above 2.00 lean up the high velocity mixture.

The diameter of the tube determines the amount of fuel available in the fuel wells and how sensitive it is to fuel level changes.

The hole placement determines where in the fuel well the air is mixed with the fuel. Low = richer, high = leaner.

I would assume more and smaller holes would provide better emulsion. I only got into where they where placed.



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