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kyhunting
Racing application. Who is using a gated shifter? Which one? Do you like it? Is it worth the expense? I've been fighting with shifting issues.. like finding 2nd when looking for 4th. Last episode ended with broken rocker arms. I've adjusted and replaced everything from the shifter to the solid trans mounts. It will do fine and then all of a sudden I've found second instead of 4th which results in a over rev. I have concentrated on my shifting and can't find a correlation to what causes this to happen. Any suggestions would be appriciated.

Thank you

David
john rogers
Rennshift
SirAndy
QUOTE(john rogers @ Jul 20 2009, 09:30 AM) *

Rennshift

agree.gif

http://www.jwesteng.com/


http://www.jwesteng.com/porsche/914/rennshift_914.htm
IPB Image


http://www.jwesteng.com/porsche/914/linkage_914.htm
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thumb3d.gif Andy
HAM Inc
Go JWest, young man!
grantsfo
I went with the linkages from JWest. Very nice and it cleaned up my shifting problems.
carr914
Definately RennShift

T.C.

Click to view attachment
zymurgist
I put a Rennshift in my 911. Best money I ever spent on that car.
Chris Pincetich
+1 on Rennshift
I read elsewhere about extreme racin 914s that would have detectable chasis twist to the point that shifting in corners was super tricky. Not sure what level your 914 is at, if you are on race slicks, big HP, but no cage or chasis re-inforcement. I just AX, and the Rennshift makes finding the right spot purdy easy. The springs keep the shift lever in that 2-3 plane, getting anywhere else takes effort. Not a true gated shift solution, but a great improvement. beerchug.gif
scottb
i too have the rennshift along with the linkage and couldn't be happier....
SirAndy
QUOTE(ChrisNPDrider @ Aug 27 2009, 01:36 PM) *

I read elsewhere about extreme racin 914s that would have detectable chasis twist to the point that shifting in corners was super tricky.

I have that problem. I have a cage, but it's not tied into the shocktowers. When i'm on sticky slicks the chassis will flex enough to cause binding in the shift linkage when trying to shift while cornering.

shades.gif Andy
HAM Inc
QUOTE
When i'm on sticky slicks the chassis will flex enough to cause binding in the shift linkage when trying to shift while cornering.


I think the reason for that is the engine/trans rolling on soft motormounts causing the linkage to bind at the firewall.
kyhunting
Found the problem. Clutch cable tube that runs thru the tunnel had broken loose from the welds. When it is loose it raises up about 2". This allows the bottom of the gear shift lever to come in contact with it. This feels like the normal far right stop you would have when shifting into 4th. I have also installed the Rennshift and I believe it is going to be good.
Randal
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Aug 30 2009, 02:12 PM) *

QUOTE
When i'm on sticky slicks the chassis will flex enough to cause binding in the shift linkage when trying to shift while cornering.


I think the reason for that is the engine/trans rolling on soft motormounts causing the linkage to bind at the firewall.




I had solid mounts at the transmission and still had the 2nd to 5th issue, under hard G's in autox. Especially during a slalom where you are very busy.

I can't think of any situation at the track that would be as extreme, so prolly ok at the track.
HAM Inc
Randall I use to think that the binding was in the tranny itself. But subsequent testing and some design changes to my shifting system led me to the conclusion that the binding is at the bushing at the firewall.

What's moving and/or flexing to cause this is still a matter of debate (I'm not sure myself, though I think in the case of lesser G force induced binding it is likely soft mounts)
Whatever the case may be I think it is relative movement between the chassis and the drive train causing the link to bind at the firewall bushing, not in the tranny itself (it about has to be one or the other).
Randal
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 2 2009, 08:14 AM) *

Randall I use to think that the binding was in the tranny itself. But subsequent testing and some design changes to my shifting system led me to the conclusion that the binding is at the bushing at the firewall.

What's moving and/or flexing to cause this is still a matter of debate (I'm not sure myself, though I think in the case of lesser G force induced binding it is likely soft mounts)
Whatever the case may be I think it is relative movement between the chassis and the drive train causing the link to bind at the firewall bushing, not in the tranny itself (it about has to be one or the other).



I'm thinking my problem is a bit different from yours Len. I was able to shift, but with chassis movement, even with a full cage (but no tie down to shock towers) I would get 5th instead of 3rd. Even though I was being as careful as I could pulling the shift lever back straight. No question this exercise was right in the middle of a corner with substantial G forces.

When this happens in a competitive autox, your run is over.

Question: Are the u-joints that Renn offers used at the firewall or in front of the transmission? Do they replace the firewall bushing?
grantsfo
Issue I was seeing was misalignment in hard turns when shift was on entry or exit. Hillclimb was the worst. And it seemed that issues happened the most as car was unloading from exit of a turn.

I went to firmer mounts and the previous mentioned linkage. I left my stock shifter in place and never had an issue again. I expereinced issues at the track prior to these mods. T2 at Infineon was a constant problem. Never had any issues at Laguna Seca put there were rarely any shifts under load at that track with my gearing.
Randal
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Sep 2 2009, 10:55 AM) *

Issue I was seeing was misalignment in hard turns when shift was on entry or exit. Hillclimb was the worst. And it seemed that issues happened the most as car was unloading from exit of a turn.

I went to firmer mounts and the previous mentioned linkage. I left my stock shifter in place and never had an issue again. I expereinced issues at the track prior to these mods. T2 at Infineon was a constant problem. Never had any issues at Laguna Seca put there were rarely any shifts under load at that track with my gearing.



T2 at Infineon led me to build a lockout to keep from going from 4th to 1st trying to get 3rd.

J P Stein
I have no problems now that my trans is a 2 speed. The 2/3 shift is a snap, up or down. It works everytime you have the guts to steer one handed. This leads me to believe the problem is in the 'H' crossover during which the shift rod rotates ....too much rotation gets ya the wrong effin gear. The in/out movement is
only about .3 inches between each of the 3 positions at the trans. If I had a solution for this I'd tell ya. J.Wests shift console mod may do the trick....but I aint gonna pony up the bucks he wants for it on a maybe. He can also keep his shifter.....that is a solution to a non-problem.....IMO.
HAM Inc
The Rennshifter rocks and allows for a creative person to design a gate that incorporates a reverse/first lockout that bolts to the top. This is key to consistent, fast shifts. (Was for me anyway.)
The console mod is the absolute cats meow. It is easy to install and makes a world of difference when coupled to his linkage. Can you say precise?!
I will say that in my experience with JWest that there is no "maybe" with his products, or his character. He sells first class goodies and if something doesn't work as advertised (it will) I would bet money that James will make it right to your satisfaction.
You just doen't have to go around with a crappy shifting 914!
bam914
Stock mounts and shifter work great in my race car. No missed shifts ever. I do not think I could drive a 914 that had a really good shifter in it.
HAM Inc

QUOTE
I do not think I could drive a 914 that had a really good shifter in it.


Blake you can drive anything! You've already proven that. And if you did drive one with the upgrades I think you'd hate going back!

The single most important part of the equation is having a well built gearbox with lots of expensive new parts. Blake built mine, and combined with the afore mentioned upgrades my 914 shifts better than my E30 BMW, which was the best shifting car I'd ever driven.
grantsfo
QUOTE(bam914 @ Sep 3 2009, 10:37 AM) *

Stock mounts and shifter work great in my race car. No missed shifts ever. I do not think I could drive a 914 that had a really good shifter in it.

Put over 200 HP and race slicks on your car and I think you might have a differnt opinion. My car shifted great with DOT tires and 100 HP too. LOL!

And best shifting car is MX5 with six speed. Short positive shifts. I didnt mishift that car over 30K miles over mountain roads, AX and track days.
bam914
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Sep 3 2009, 07:12 PM) *

QUOTE(bam914 @ Sep 3 2009, 10:37 AM) *

Stock mounts and shifter work great in my race car. No missed shifts ever. I do not think I could drive a 914 that had a really good shifter in it.

Put over 200 HP and race slicks on your car and I think you might have a differnt opinion. My car shifted great with DOT tires and 100 HP too. LOL!

And best shifting car is MX5 with six speed. Short positive shifts. I didnt mishift that car over 30K miles over mountain roads, AX and track days.


I have. My first race car was an EP 914. I had about 170hp and slicks. Never missed a shift.
grantsfo
QUOTE(bam914 @ Sep 4 2009, 10:19 AM) *


I have. My first race car was an EP 914. I had about 170hp and slicks. Never missed a shift.

Put that car config through enough load and unload senarios and I think you might find a few little issues with a 200 HP plus car with a a stock shifter. Like I said I never expereinced issues at Laguna Seca or really anything at Infineon with my stock setup. However going into tight uphill turns at a Hillclimb and Infirneon T2 is one of those uphill turns that just misaligned things enough to force misshift.

Remeber I'm a guy with 200K miles and 32 years of shifting 914's too so I thought I was losing it as I have never touched reverse going into 2nd gear. My co-driver expereinced same issues and he was pretty agile shifter who rarely mishifted his 914.

But alas it all went away when I upgraded linkage from tunnel back. Perhaps it was due to fact rear of my car was not rienforced in anyway.
neilca
Hey Len and Blake try shifting left handed!

neil
bam914
QUOTE(neilca @ Sep 4 2009, 11:59 AM) *

Hey Len and Blake try shifting left handed!

neil


I have seen your car before but it was when it was being built. I have since seen pictures of it. I am sure it was not easy at first.
J P Stein
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 3 2009, 07:28 AM) *


I will say that in my experience with JWest that there is no "maybe" with his products, or his character. He sells first class goodies and if something doesn't work as advertised (it will) I would bet money that James will make it right to your satisfaction.


Too many reports of his 1st gen shifter coming apart......he may have made that right, I never heard. I don't like outfits that have customers do the R&D on a product.....There are a few fellas that do the customer R&D trick. I got no truck with it. Even if it is made right, it wastes time & effort.
HAM Inc
QUOTE
I don't like outfits that have customers do the R&D on a product....


You need to get over that! Every company with a great track record in motorsports does it. From the top auto manufacturers down to the after market parts suppliers. Some rely on it more than others, but the truth is the best ones make improvements based on user feedback.

I can't say much about the early JWest goodies (never used any), but everything I have personally used from them has been top-notch.

I still say that if you have to guide your shfter to make an accurate shift, then you are not shifting as fast as possible. If you have to think about it then it will be a distraction, and slower. Thinking about guiding the shifter on down shifts while braking and pointing the car puts you at a disadvantage to the competitor who can concentrate solely on braking and turning. Just my .02 cents.
SirAndy
QUOTE(J P Stein @ Sep 6 2009, 07:23 AM) *

Too many reports of his 1st gen shifter coming apart......

confused24.gif

I have one of the "1st gen" JW shifters. Been using it for 5 years or so.
Never had a problem with it.
popcorn[1].gif Andy
J P Stein
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 7 2009, 11:47 AM) *

QUOTE
I don't like outfits that have customers do the R&D on a product....


You need to get over that!


No, I don't.
When I pay money for a bit, it should work as advertised for a reasonable length of time. If I fuck it up, I acknowledge it.....which is much more than can be said of too many vendors. Maybe that is why my car don't break and it's about at the top of "it's " game. How's yours? . I use "proven" parts....I'll take a shot in the dark once in a while, but not often....but not those made from a sow's ear & priced like a silk purse.

My shifter has been workin' fine for 35 years, Andy. Get back to me when you can say the same.
Randal
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Sep 7 2009, 12:26 PM) *

QUOTE(J P Stein @ Sep 6 2009, 07:23 AM) *

Too many reports of his 1st gen shifter coming apart......

confused24.gif

I have one of the "1st gen" JW shifters. Been using it for 5 years or so.
Never had a problem with it.
popcorn[1].gif Andy



Not my experience, but I was using the shifter in extreme situations. I think if I'd put his "tunnel back" assembly in I might have had a different opinion (fyi it wasn't available then).

And I agree with Len, if you have to think about the upcoming shift the mechanics just aren't right.

I wonder how much time I lost at Infineon in the Beast (fyi with a stock shifter) when I had to double clutch the 4th to 3rd shift - every time very carefully letting out the clutch and testing that I had indeed got the transmission into the correct gear.
HAM Inc
QUOTE
Maybe that is why my car don't break and it's about at the top of "it's " game. How's yours? .


Pretty good I'd say. 5 wins a 2nd and a 3rd in FProd competition this year and first in SARRC points (my first full season of road racingBTW). We suffered our first failures Sunday at Barber when our stock fan exploded when taking the checkers in qualifying (first in class, first overall none-the-less). Fixed that and was driving away first overall in the race when an ignition box crapped out.
We had no issues Sat and took the pole in the rain and first overall in the race also in the rain. Not to bad, I think, considering my first lap ever around the joint before qualifying was that morning on a bike.

So yeah, we have our shit together.
HAM Inc
QUOTE
I wonder how much time I lost at Infineon in the Beast (fyi with a stock shifter) when I had to double clutch the 4th to 3rd shift - every time very carefully letting out the clutch and testing that I had indeed got the transmission into the correct gear.


Randall that cost you a lot of time. I know, my first race at Rd Atl in a 914 was just like that. I parked the car for a year and fixed it so that non-sence didn't happen anymore. Next, time at Rd Atl I was 3 seconds faster!
J P Stein
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 8 2009, 07:59 AM) *

So yeah, we have our shit together.


One's shit should be all in one place. biggrin.gif Sounds like you're doing well.

In a couole hundred AXs (2 drivers) I have had 2 electrical failures that caused me to miss passes over 8-9 years. I make no claim for having my shit together. Were I to say that, God would surely punish me. I consider myself lucky and the harder I work at it, the luckier I get so I'll keep skinning cats my way.
Randal

So what is the difference between the end to end Rennshift and the Wevo?
turboman808
QUOTE(Randal @ Sep 8 2009, 09:39 AM) *

So what is the difference between the end to end Rennshift and the Wevo?


Gonna order the Rennshifter once I get all the other issues sorted out with my transmission. Wevo is fine but for a race car I think the rennshifter is a better choice.

They both have there own versions of the reverse lockout. Rennshifts is very clever while the wevo solution is very flimsy and you hit it a few times coming out of 5th to get 4th and it's gonna be destroyed. Replaced the lockout and it broke again in a few weeks.

Really hope I got this issue solved soon. So tired of dealing with bad shifting.
grantsfo
I love it when dedicated AX guys with cars designed to stay in 2nd gear start talking shit about shifting. ...What? ...3rd gear about what once or twice a year? poke.gif And have you ever used 4th or 5th gear? lol-2.gif

Track driving that many of us in the Paddock have expereince with subject cars to much more stress. Shfits in one long track weekend easily go over what a typical AX driver in properly setup AX car would see in 2 years of full schedule of events with 2 drivers.
J P Stein
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Sep 8 2009, 03:23 PM) *

I love it when dedicated AX guys with cars designed to stay in 2nd gear start talking shit about shifting. ...What? ...3rd gear about what once or twice a year? poke.gif And have you ever used 4th or 5th gear? lol-2.gif

Track driving that many of us in the Paddock have expereince with subject cars to much more stress. Shfits in one long track weekend easily go over what a typical AX driver in properly setup AX car would see in 2 years of full schedule of events with 2 drivers.


Any car is overstressed with your fat ass in it. I've had enuff of your shit to last me a lifetime. In my reamining short time on these lists, my replies to you will not be this cordial.
grantsfo
QUOTE(J P Stein @ Sep 8 2009, 04:20 PM) *


Any car is overstressed with your fat ass in it.


Thats a fact! My biggest failure mode in race cars? Seat mounts cracking. av-943.gif

JUst saying a good AX car like yours sees nothing but 2nd gear 99% of its duty cycle. Bet clutch cables on your car last a long time!
SirAndy
QUOTE(J P Stein @ Sep 7 2009, 12:55 PM) *

My shifter has been workin' fine for 35 years, Andy. Get back to me when you can say the same.

According to that logic (older is better) you should throw away half of the parts on your car NOW ...

rolleyes.gif Andy


PS: So, exactly WHEN is it long enough to be OK? Apparently, 5 years is not, so what is it? 10? 20? 35? WTF?
Randal
QUOTE(Randal @ Sep 8 2009, 10:39 AM) *

So what is the difference between the end to end Rennshift and the Wevo?




Guess no one knows. confused24.gif
J P Stein
Spend some time rootin' around in the guts of a trans and the bits leading up to it . You'll find that by its self the shifter is just something to move these aft bits around and has *little effect in ensuring that they go to the right place*. It's just a lever on a ball. It has adjustments side to side & fore & aft....you want a 500 buck lever, be my guest. The fun starts at the shift console. When ya figure out how/why/why not.... things work , then we can talk.....this would require gettin' dirty.

As I wrote, the JWest console just may be worthwhile. The rest of the stuff is a fishing lure to me.
SirAndy
QUOTE(J P Stein @ Sep 8 2009, 10:03 PM) *

Spend some time rootin' around in the guts of a trans and the bits leading up to it . You'll find that by its self the shifter is just something to move these aft bits around and has *little effect in ensuring that they go to the right place*. It's just a lever on a ball. It has adjustments side to side & fore & aft....you want a 500 buck lever, be my guest. The fun starts at the shift console. When ya figure out how/why/why not.... things work , then we can talk.....this would require gettin' dirty.

Hmmm, interestingly enough, i just drove a bone stock 914/6 with the stock tailshifter the other day.

The guts of the tranny are the same than on mine. Again, according to your logic, my setup with the rennshifter should not have any significant improvement over the stock 914/6 setup.

Even with all new bushings etc. the stock setup felt like stirring a pot of dough. Trying to find a gear in a hurry (think shifting fast at the track) is like playing russian roulette. Sooner or later, you'll find the wrong gear.

I'm sure with enough time and effort, you can come up with a solution that does not involve a JW unit or WEVO unit and then you can brag about how much cheaper you got your setup.
That is, if you don't value your time invested.

To me, the JW setup is a solution to a real problem.
bye1.gif Andy
J P Stein
Rooting around in a tailshifter leaves me stunned that it works at all. biggrin.gif
That internal mechanism is Rube Goldberg at his finest.
HAM Inc
QUOTE
Shfits in one long track weekend easily go over what a typical AX driver in properly setup AX car would see in 2 years of full schedule of events with 2 drivers.

No doubt! Track use does require a lot of shifting. No idea what the AX guys go through (never done it) but this past weekend at Barber I shifted no less than 15 times/lap. 15 lap race=225 shifts in 30 minutes! I ony flubbed one shift the entire weekend, and that was when my foot slipped off the clutch. Consider that this was a double event with 15minute qualifying sessions and you get the idea that the shift system better be up to snuff.

JP the stock shifter does get the job done, but I'm not sure how you would gate it and that is critical for fast, consistent, and repeatable shifting. Without travel limits along the H you are putting a torsional strain on the long linkage. That contributes to binding and inconsistent shifting, plus missed shifts. Aside from eliminating the need to guide the shifter when going down to 3rd and twisting the linkage when going up to 4th, the gate prevents grabbing 1st when going from 4th to 3rd, or reverse when going straight from 4th to 2nd.
HAM Inc
QUOTE
So what is the difference between the end to end Rennshift and the Wevo?

Randall I am only familiar with the JWest linkage. I do not know what the difference is.
Randal
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 9 2009, 07:51 AM) *

QUOTE
Shfits in one long track weekend easily go over what a typical AX driver in properly setup AX car would see in 2 years of full schedule of events with 2 drivers.


No doubt! Track use does require a lot of shifting. No idea what the AX guys go through (never done it) but this past weekend at Barber I shifted no less than 15 times/lap.



No doubt you shift a bunch at the track, but as with all things it's a matter of degree when you compare an autox run to a track session or race. By degree I mean one missed shift at an autox and your finished. On the track this can also be the case, but typically it isn't. dry.gif
J P Stein
DP
J P Stein
WEVO does not make a shifter for the 914,901. They do make one for the 911, 901.
Looking at Dr. Gary's WEVO for his 914, 915 it is a very nice piece.
Randal
QUOTE(J P Stein @ Sep 9 2009, 10:22 AM) *

WEVO does not make a shifter for the 914,901. They do make one for the 911, 901.
Looking at Dr. Gary's WEVO for his 914, 915 it is a very nice piece.



What's the weight penalty?
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