I am trying to see if anyone may know this engine builder schantzmd. If you know of this builder, how does this engine compare to the Raby 2270 engines? Dont get me wrong, I would love a Raby turnkey 2270 or maybe a kit, but both are out of my reach when all is said and done. With this being a turnkey and everything set up to run would this be a decent engine and reliable? Just not as much power as Jakes Massive type 4s. I could except less power if I could get a turnkey like this if it is reliable and still has more than stock (stated in the ad - built for 150Hp)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...em=370201454753

If I had 5000$ to spend on a turnkey engine, I would go the Origilal Custom's 5000$ engine http://www.originalcustoms.com/2056.php

This engine will have well known and documentred internals. the ebay guy is not a known quantity. In addition, this will support one of our own, and is built with Jake's blessing. It is like a MassIVE lite! That is what i will likely do, unless i eventually buy a kit and take the engine building plunge! (waiting for him to offer the 2270!?)

I would probably do the same.

And that's all well and good... and true.

But let's compare apple to apples and not apples to oranges. The 5k motor mentioned is a 2056 not a 2270. It's also not a turn key motor where the ebay motor appears to be, including a clutch, but less exhaust at least.

The parts to comprise one of my MassIVe engines cost the same as what the buy it now is on this Ebay engine....

You will get exactly what you pay for. Spend it now or spend it later, either way its going to be spent.

There is no comparison between this engine and anything that has my name on it. Period.

Here are some reasons why you should quiz this seller more before buying this engine... These things were noted while I did a quick scan of the description of the engine..If I wanted to pick the description apart, he gave me some good ammo.. Here are the highlights.


What the hell is that?? Is this engine running 39 degrees of advance? What is BTC?
If it is running 39* and optimizes there, that SCREAMS inefficiency! If I build a pump gas engine that optimizes with more than 32* of timing I consider the engine design a failure.


How can a vehicle have a "late model" when its one year only??


What the hell are those??? Never heard that term before.


A new cam with reground lifters?? Thats going to work really well, especially if the lifters were not re heat treated after regrinding! The stock heat treat on the lifters is only .003 deep and any resurfacing will break through it based on my previous experiences.


Wow! Its been polished!



I am sure it looks GRRRREEEEAAAATTTT!

Anyone who doesn't know the proper terms of the components used in an engine probably shouldn't be assembling it... If he set the timing to 39* with a 009 dizzy with the advertised 9:1 CR this engine's life span will be measured in minutes!

And now for my favorite part :-)

So..... This is an assumption of the power this engine is going to make based off of it's "data specs"??? So in other words the engine has NOT been individually evaluated for it's performance and efficency evaluations.

You are trying to compare an engine that was built by someone "between classes" to an engine thats designed, assembled and evaluated by a team of highly motivated developers that are known world wide for unparalleled attention to detail and over achievement with anything they do... There is no comparison. You won't understand that until you experience it first hand.

What we create isn't just a bunch of thrown together parts that come off someone elses's shelves as generic offerings... Hell, a set of our brand new CNC ported cylinder heads run 1/2 as much as they want for this entire engine that features 35 year old heads...

Well at least he gave you an Honorable Mention in the Q&A area. LOL

Thanks Jake for the work you do.

+1 for McMark's $5000 2056 builds. Mark is an all round - nice guy who likes burgers and has a big brain... You cannot go wrong with a McMark 2056 motor...

I don't think this forum should be used by vendors to run down other vendors.

It wasn't anything more than stating the obvious facts that were posted by the ebay Vendor in his description of the product... These things should be paid attention to by those who are considering a purchase of this commodity that is confusingly similar (and even compared to by the OP) to the product that I offer.

Facts are facts.

Another fact is that DB Cooper (AKA Paul Illick) is a member of my opposition that would do anything to discriminate against me or what my company creates.

BTW- I apologize for any hurt feelings in advance and do not wish to turn this poster's thread into another flame war... Perhaps someone here has bought one of these engines and can attest to it's performance with some facts that could help get the thread back on track???

Well, the way I look at it, I can add one more BS car phase to use with my friends.

- Hypertuenic Pistons...


Add that to;

- Starter hoses
- Headlight fluid
- Torque converter timing adjusters
- etc.

I figure I am one up after reading this ad.

Agreed but, a quick check of the member vendor section reveals that this guy is not a member vendor here. The original post is looking for information including quality and integrity (implied). The most obvious problem with his engine program is that the retail price of the necessary replacement components, sealants, seals is right around the same price as his "buy it now". That would make the rebuild basically free, right? That sounds like an unbelievable deal doesn't it? That is why I don't believe it.

Jake's line by line analysis of his ebay ad points out a number of questions too... For one thing, some of what the guy says makes no sense at all. But that may be the point. The guy may be saying things that make no sense because if you don't know what it means, you will assume he does and not ask because it might make you look stupid. That is human nature.
Bottom line is, the only way the subject ebay motor can be sold at that "buy it now" price is to be a stock motor that has been taken apart, cleaned?, re-ringed and bolted back together using sweat shop labor. Either that or the guy is a philanthopist and he is losing a grand or two on each engine he sells just to give away his millions to deserving Type IV enthusiasts. What do you think?

Thanks for that observation Dr. Sime :-)

Schools are trying to teach a concept now from K through 12 that has been taught in higher education for the last 10 - 15 years called critical thinking. The basic concept is that if we continuously question what is assumed to be right, we will continuously improve our lives. Guys who use razzle dazzle like this will have to get real jobs if most people begin to think this way.

Jake, thanks for pointing all that out. Good stuff to consider. Plus, I like the "spend it now or spend it later" saying... too true with this stuff. Do it right the first time and don't look back.

5000$ random ebay engine bought on internet pictures?

Seriously? Just click buy it now for a motor? That is nuts..... and just wreaks of disaster. You can't just buy things like motors or turbos on ebay, guitars, etc. Things with a lot of dependencies and tight clearances......

Sounds like flushing 5k down a toilet to me.

I am truly disappointed to find that Jake does not support the "Late Model 912".



Eric

Yeah, never liked that '69, 912 :-)

A 912E is an entirely different car!

Rob, why would the guy not being a member here make any difference? Does it somehow make it O.K. to rag on him if he's not here to defend himself? No, a vendor shouldn't be using forums to run down other vendors, period. That's common business ethics. Now if you're one of his CUSTOMERS then please share some actual information about the man's quality and integrity, instead of negative implications and inference. And point of order, grammar and spelling have absolutely no relation to a man's integrity.

And Jake, a member of "your opposition"? Be careful, that sounds like advancing megalomania. Or paranoia. Or both. You're wrong anyway. I'm not "opposed" to you, I'm just not a fan of infomercials. Or hype. And I especially don't care for people who hype themselves at the expense of other people. Don't forget I defended you when you were young and starting out and were being backhanded. I haven't changed, you have. Don't be like the people you didn't like then.

A vendor shouldn't run down other vendors. Period.

I'm not sure that such a rule exists Paul. Perhaps it should but then how would we keep from being victimized by guys like Stromberg? Motormeister? Are we not to criticize them? I am pretty good at smelling bullshit but I sure appreciate when an expert can tell me why I don't like what I am smelling.

Jake provided analysis. In no way was it an informercial and the original post indicates he wishes he could afford a Raby turnkey. That pretty much invites Jake to do the analysis. I wish I could have a Raby turnkey but since I can't, how does this engine compare is basically what he is asking. Jake already knows he cannot sell anything to the guy because he stated in his post he cannot afford a Raby motor.

There are a few really good engine builders who can put together a Type IV with skill. That Hamilton car in the Bay area screams and that is just one example.
In my opinion, none does research and development using scientific method the way Jake Raby does. Jake does have opposition. That is not paranoia. The same names show up everytime something comes up that he could be criticized for. Hell, when my engine blew up, two people had already left him scathing critical voice mail before I even had the chance to tell him myself.

So if you really feel that a rule should exist that no one criticizes vendors then perhaps we can get the Admin crew to look at that. But if not, then Jake is right and this is just another opportunistic pot-shot.

I for one, bought a set of pistons and cylinders from Stromberg before I knew any better. I am now thankful that I have a place I can ask people who to trust. I couldn't even bear to re-sell them. Threw them out.

Anyone else have a concern about a turnkey engine that has been run for "2 hours" without an exhaust system? 20 minutes to break in the cam is all I would do to keep from burning valves...

I find this criticism of Jake Raby funny..... I have been building various makes of cars for YEARS and worked with various vendors and builders.

I have yet to see anyone posting what he does, doing the research he does in the import world. Seriously, perhaps it's the "tuner" generation but nobody I have seen could hold a candle to the operation.

I'm talking 500-600hp turbo watercooled VW's have 1/32 of the development, and thought that he has into some type 4 setups. I can not imagine what they could do if their game was stepped up to what I have seen so far.

400whp type IV on pump gas? Yeah...... Out of a type IV...

I have to call BS on this as well. Just because you sell a 914 part you don't automatically become some swell guy that is above reproach. Jake is a little too cocky and over confident for my liking but this doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is talking about. The guy makes some damn fine stuff and has worked a lot at doing what he does. To have him give some input on what to ask or what to look out for is great. For someone with his knowledge not to say anything could have ended up with someone interested in our little cars getting screwed. Jake didn't just bash the seller either... He pointed out red flags. Just how is that wrong?

Heres one that IS turn key and has some pedigree

Richs Garage Sale

(excuse the shameless plug )

I wish I could buy a new engine!!!!Im just trying to get my piece of crap running and I find this thread quite amusing.Anyway good luck.

Almost everything I have gotten concerning a 914 on ebay that has to do with engines and parts has either been misrepresented or poor quality. All stuff from this site has been honestly presented. Any information I have gotten or advice from here has always been right. The members of this site are awesome and thier views and input should be viewed as just that, advice and input, not a plug for more business. Thank you Jake for the honest input. After joining this site, your advice saved me from buying a motor from a poor source.

I agree, go with a known quality product and forget ebay. If this is your first motor, spend what you can afford and listen to these guys. I know Jake may get under some people's skin (same for George Hussey) but we need them. Nuff said.

Tom

Exactly......

This forum does not see what ebay parts end up doing, because so little is offered for these cars on ebay and engine wise even less.


Do you guys want to see pictures of what happens when you buy a turbo on ebay?


There is some awesome carnage.... I have a collection of glued together ebay turbo pictures at home.

Yes I said glued together in reference to a turbo, apparently the chinese think that a turbo can be glued together and work fine.

Note to the original poster: This is a sure thing. I can vouch for the builder, Original Customs is the McMark I was speaking of in the first post I put on this thread.

If you could talk Rich into selling off some of the stuff he has bolted onto the motor you might be able to get it cheaper but frankly you shouldn't. It is what you put on the motor and how it is installed that make all the difference in the turn out and the longevity. Getting the ceramic lifters is huge. The only thing better would be rollers.

Yes.. I am cocky, self centered and over bearing... But I am effective and will continue to be and last time I checked results were all I cared about.

There are three types of people... Those I have pissed off. Those I will piss off. and those who I can't piss off because they are just as forward and intense as I am and appreciate old fashioned no bullshit communication :-)

Get this back on topic guys, we are not being fair to the OP... I accept full responsibility for this, and I apologize for pissing anyone off..

As for an infomercial, well you see one every time you turn on the Radio, or the TV or open a Newspaper... Hell there is even an advertisement at the top of this page as a banner... So if you don't like commercialism move to Alaska and take up residence in an Igloo.

I enjoy helping people and know the future of these engines and cars comes from a better understanding of them by their Owners... Thats why I am here because about 10% of my sales come from people that are active forum members... I am not just a Vendor, I am an enthusiast just like every other member on this forum...

I'll never understand why some people dislike HONEST people!!!! There aren't enough honest people in the world these days and Jake is as honest as they come!

Why would anyone consider buying something from ebay with very poor advertising over someone who tells it like it is... totally honest and up front with you?

How do you consider that poor advertising???? The guy has a video clip of the engine and listed all the specs of the engine clearly in his auction. He even has receipts. Although he may not be the best speller and cant spell Hypereutectic pistons, is this reason to rake him over the coals? He just looks to me like a guy who built an engine for his own 914 and then decided to sell it. He has no history of selling engines in bulk. He even mentions Jake as being a forerunner in the type 4 industry and this is what he gets? Sad, really sad....

Wrong. And it is wrong to keep stating this myth.
Do some research...you are more than capable of looking up the prices...I did, and still do on a regular basis.
2K in parts is what he has there. maybe a few bucks more or less.

Jake takes time to provide additional machine work and quality control work to ensure that all the parts meet his standards, but he is not the manufacturer of parts, nor is he the only vendor on earth.

A guy who owns a shop in CA can also build a motor...

I am in no way trashing Jake, but for gods sake, he is not the first guy who ever built a motor, nor the first vendor to ever build a type 4 motor.

I would advise the original poster to check out the seller, get some references and talk to his client. Heck, maybe you just found a builder that loves these motors.

In the old days, prior to the Internet...we all used local shops to get work done or get motors rebuilt, head work done, machine work done etc. Now that we have the internet, all the local talent did not all of the sudden loose brain cells....they still know how to do what they did for the past 30 years...with the same machines etc.

Maybe the guy built a decent motor...a 2.4 motor for 5500 is a great price...and it does look nice. Find a way to check him out...call him, just like the old days...use the telephone and talk to the guy.

Rich

Rich,
Many of the things you are stating here are points I have already made. I am the one who said there are several engine builders who can build a good Type IV. I am the one who mentioned Hamilton in the Bay Area. You bring these up as if I disagree with that, I don't. Jake is the guy the original poster said he wished he could afford.

Lets do a simple valuation on the parts. Jakes engine program lists a 2.3 liter kit at about $5500.00 so let's use that for comparison. This includes all of the parts this guy has built into this motor, less the LE heads which are about $2500.00 so now we have reduced the value of the parts to $3000.00. But we have to consider that the value of the heads this guy is using is probably $500 to $800 before they are reconditioned which will cost between $800 to $1200 if they are done correctly so lets just put a value on the heads of $1600 so now we have $4500 into the parts. Further we have to consider the value of the tin, the fan housing and fan, the clutch, PP, flywheel, engine case. I am going to stand by my statement that the guy has $5500.00 in parts. I don't see the myth here... He has about $5500 in parts. Then you have all the effort he has put into making things pretty. The rebuild was basically free. Actually, maybe that is the point since his customer baled?

hey Rich;

Where did you price the AA 'Hyperteunic' aluminum p/c's?

(not being a smart ass here for a change...)

Is there another company (other than the Nickie's) that make aluminum cylinders for the type IV?

(not bashing, not trying to sway business in any other direction, just curious about components vendors for parts that I will probably not purchase since have that silly v6 turbo in my car)

That was his reasoning for the second auction being ended...

his first auction didn't make his reserve.

Rob, where did you see that his customer baled? (I'm looking, but don't see it)

In the auction text it said that he built the engine for a customer and that the customer had a death in the family I think? and had to cancel. The third sentence after the video...

okay, found it. thanks!

That's probably a misspelling of "hypereutectic". If you've never heard of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston

And there are other companies that make aluminum cylinders. NPR used to make them, and a chinese place called QSC makes them ( no idea about quality, bought a set and haven't used them yet ), as does Mahle ( makes 911 cylinders that can be adapted to type IV ).

I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones I remember right now.

Well I didn’t want my post to take this turn, my intensions were to just get some feedback and opinions on this turnkey for sale.

Jake Thanks for providing the information/advise I need to look at closer, and I apologize for using your name/product with the comparison. Maybe we need to talk more, I do watch your forum same name.


A little history of what I have and why I am researching a turnkey engine is that I purchased myself a totally stock everything 914 1.7 about 2 years ago, and like many, I paid way too much and it has spent more time on the dreaded jack stands then on the road. I originally wanted to do a V8 conversion, but through research on these forums have decided that I would like to keep this an Air Cooled 914 but want reliability with drivable power. Since I am in the Middle East at this moment, and with what little spare time I do have I spend it on the internet (when its working) researching what I want to do and the route to take. Like I have said in the original post, I really want a 2270 MASSIVE4 turnkey. If I were to do a kit and build it myself I could learn these engines which I have zero knowledge about, however after I have purchased a kit, along with the fuel, exhaust, ignition and a few more goodies to make the combo right, I would have most likely have spent the same amount as a turnkey. So I am looking for a turnkey to drop in and enjoy the ride. This is why I am researching and was looking for a builder I can afford, or Jake needs a payment plan…lol I am not looking to purchase any engine right this minute seeing where I am right now, but I am doing my research so I know who to go to when I do pull the trigger.

Anyways, I am rambling here, I thank everyone for their comments/advise and trying to help and welcome any other suggestions.

I'll not forget those statements.
Its not about building a Type 4, it's about taking the engine to the engine to a level that more people can build them at home with confidence. We sell more engine kits that turn key engines. I have developed a program that takes people off the street with ZERO experience and gives them the opportunity to build an engine up to 200HP with success on the first attempt(for the majority).. Hell the program even includes tools for those that don't own a tool box as an option!

Anyone can build an engine, but the development of the support program to assist others and their successful attempts is another story. You should try it sometime and maybe you'd understand.

My success speaks for it's self... Not many companies are expanding right now or have given their Employees pay increases. The program has succeeded because it's followers have shared the same success and that can't be argued with.

Over time the turn key engine program will be phased out completely with all focus being on kits, further development and more DVDs and directives to support the assemblers of these engines..

Ga Dan,
You are local to us so take advantage of that. Call me and set up a time that you can come by and see my facility. We are in the most beautiful part of the state and there are lots of things to do here for the whole family.

I'll show you exactly what goes into the design of an engine package and take you through all the steps that the engine sees during its creation and evaluation.. You don't have to buy anything or even be serious to come take a peak at what happens at Aircooled Heaven.

OK, but if you are holding me up to some unattainable politically correct standard....geez man have a beer. I complimented you...and made sure I stated that I am not trashing you in any way....

You dont make pistons.. you buy them like the rest of us.
You take the time to quality control them, possibly change them...but others can and do buy pistons, even if they cant spell.

Have another beer...

The point was, and still is, that this seller might actually be an honest and upstanding citizen with a business that he is trying to feed his family with.
He may have no bad rep, but we dont know that, do we.

I stated in that same post that the potential buyer should contact the seller, hell, maybe he is a shop that build these motor...maybe its his first ever....we just dont know.

I attempted to write my statement in such a way as to not offend, but I guess I failed...now open one more and have a beer.

Rich

Only two opinions I'll register:

1. I've never had a good experience with the 009.
2. I'd never put a FRAM filter on a motor.

If I were looking into buying this motor I would ask for a detailed run down of EXACTLY what was done to the heads. I would ask what factors were considered when choosing the cam. I wouldn't assume that this motor is a grenade, but it's a significant purchase and there are a lot of factors that can go wrong.

What filters do you use if you'd never use a FRAM one?

I don't drink... Had enough Beer for a couple lifetimes as a Marine..

No, I may not manufacture a piston, but I have designed the pistons that we use, just like most every other part that are used in my engines.

Making derogatory statements and then following them with an LOL or a disclaimer that states "I have said som e things that might piss Jake off, but they weren't meant in that way" may work with some, but not with me.

If you aren't willing to be responsible for what you say, STFU. Period.

I thought the 009 would be a dead giveaway, as it's a last resort distributor. You'd only use one of those if that was the last one you had.

I have seen that hyper-whatever term in the past for other pistons, maybe Keith Black?

Maybe the guy is a competent enough mechanic, and maybe that engine would last long enough to serve you, but you asked for opinions and that's what you got!

Jake, if you knew me personally, you would not take what I say to mean harm.
I am sorry your feeling got hurt, but I never backed down from what I said.

edited to keep the thread on track.

Call the Seller.

Rich

Jake no one is "against" you and NO ONE has disparaged your ability to build engines. Re-read this entire thread, it NEVER HAPPENED. But not everyone has $12,000 to spend on a turnkey engine to put into his $3000 (or whatever) car, so people NEED to discuss the alternatives. We don't have an option, we HAVE to have these discussions, and it's just not helpful for you to jump in and tell us that if we buy from anyone but you our engines will grenade and everything will be lost.

Look Jake, you may be very very good (no one here has ever said differently) but you aren't the only engine builder out there. There have been a hundred thousand of these cars out on the road over the last forty years, and who knows how many on race tracks. When they were rebuilt almost every one of them was done, for better and for worse, by a builder other than you. We need to be able to say those other builder's names out loud and then talk about them, both good and bad, without being told to STFU. Really. Please.

To preempt the usual "You bully! Don't hurt Jake!" reactions I'd like to point out (once again) that I have never ever said one bad word about Jake's engines.

So can we now get this thread back on track? It's not about Jake, it's about the e-bay engine. The question was does anyone know this guy, have any direct experience with him? If so please speak up. If you don't have any direct experience then there's no need to post, and certainly the best advice given here was from Rich, just give him a call.

I stick to Mann/Mahle as my first choice, and NAPA WIX as my second.

How dare you talk about other type IV engines. You KNOW they don't work! Time and time again we see people who try to get their engines built elsewhere, and the money ends up getting spent in the end anyways.

Remember if you can't afford one of jakes engines you shouldn't be driving a Porsche. This is the volkswagen mentality I keep seeing everywhere, and I'm sick of it. If you want inexpensive parts you don't deserve a 914!