OK,
When measured the oil ring does not seem to fit as I assume it should.
Versus the Hasting rings.
The grant rings , the middle section of the oil ring is almost the same width as the groove.
Do the two scraper rings ride on top of the middle section?
There are little legs so it could do that if needed.
When they are setup like that, they do not compress far enough to insert into the cylinder.
when I measure everything, width of all three rings, they add up to more than the width of the groove.
When I used hasting rings last time...a few months ago...so the details are gone..there was no question...ring, middle, ring...it all fit fine and there was a decent amount of play with no issue moving the rings or compressing them.
has anyone used these rings with success?
Rich
Full Version: Grant rings question
If you look at the oil control ring at the bottom.
It shows that the expander appears to ride against the bottom of the ring land, and the rails ride on top of the expander...
Wne setup like this is seems that the rails cannot be compressed enough to fit into the cylinder...the expander stops them.
It shows that the expander appears to ride against the bottom of the ring land, and the rails ride on top of the expander...
Wne setup like this is seems that the rails cannot be compressed enough to fit into the cylinder...the expander stops them.
Joe was just over here and he had ordered the same rings that I ordered.
I have yet to try mine.
We could not get the oil rings to compress.
The type that we got are using the upper right oil ring style...
I have yet to try mine.
We could not get the oil rings to compress.
The type that we got are using the upper right oil ring style...
Grants are a bit of a PITA but they go in fine.
Wavy ring first and yes the control ring sit on top of little ridges.
Often if you ever have a hard time getting it in you still have crud in the ring grove. I've seen this crud break ring (I only did it once) and one fellow forced it so hard he split the jug.
Wavy ring first and yes the control ring sit on top of little ridges.
Often if you ever have a hard time getting it in you still have crud in the ring grove. I've seen this crud break ring (I only did it once) and one fellow forced it so hard he split the jug.
Also check your ring gap and make sure the green and red ends (wavy) don't overlap.
OH-OH....and make sure the whole set is correct. Even Charles (LN) or JE has sent me wrong rings before.
OH-OH....and make sure the whole set is correct. Even Charles (LN) or JE has sent me wrong rings before.
Your not supposed to gap the oil ring.
the red and green were fine (though we could have used duct tape)
The oil rails fit in the cylinder with a decent gap right out of the box...and they are not supposed to be gapped (according to the manufacturer)
It was really an issue if getting the rails to slide on the expander...and they would not...
Now that I look at the Goetz rings from Pelican...I like the oil control ring design better on the Goetze rings....and the hastings rings.
What do you like to use?
Rich
the red and green were fine (though we could have used duct tape)
The oil rails fit in the cylinder with a decent gap right out of the box...and they are not supposed to be gapped (according to the manufacturer)
It was really an issue if getting the rails to slide on the expander...and they would not...
Now that I look at the Goetz rings from Pelican...I like the oil control ring design better on the Goetze rings....and the hastings rings.
What do you like to use?
Rich
Ahhhh now I got ya
The oil control ring is spring steel and you bend or wrap it like a slinky as you install. Never ever has one broke on me. (Just don't try this with the 1st&2nd ring) put the wavy in, about 90* stick one end in the grove spin the slinky in then repeat the top
I like the hastings, but I've used so many grants.
I check every ring in a jug, never had to gap an oil ring, but I have seen wrong rings in a set.
The oil control ring is spring steel and you bend or wrap it like a slinky as you install. Never ever has one broke on me. (Just don't try this with the 1st&2nd ring) put the wavy in, about 90* stick one end in the grove spin the slinky in then repeat the top
I like the hastings, but I've used so many grants.
I check every ring in a jug, never had to gap an oil ring, but I have seen wrong rings in a set.
We checked them in the cylinder...no major issue getting them in or out...just compressed all the way.
Seems like an odd design.
Rich
Seems like an odd design.
Rich
QUOTE(r_towle @ Jul 27 2009, 07:21 PM) 
Now that I look at the Goetz rings from Pelican...I like the oil control ring design better on the Goetze rings....
Rich
YES!
What type of ring compressor are you using?
That type of oil ring sucks. When I use a standard ratcheting band clamp type compressor I find it helpful to tap the compressor inline with the oil ring as I tighten the clamp. This helps (me anyway) the scraper seat the control ring. I use the handle from a body hammer and tap all around lightly... tighten a little more and tap again.
Ok start the flames.
but it works for me.
That type of oil ring sucks. When I use a standard ratcheting band clamp type compressor I find it helpful to tap the compressor inline with the oil ring as I tighten the clamp. This helps (me anyway) the scraper seat the control ring. I use the handle from a body hammer and tap all around lightly... tighten a little more and tap again.
Ok start the flames.
but it works for me.
Big buck JE and KB's use a similar style rings as the grant and you have to put them on after the pin!
The OEM or Goetze style ring is brittle, like 1st & 2nd and you can't twist them.
I personally like the grant style much better and in my opinion they control the oil better (staggered gap). Each their own.
The OEM or Goetze style ring is brittle, like 1st & 2nd and you can't twist them.
I personally like the grant style much better and in my opinion they control the oil better (staggered gap). Each their own.
QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Jul 27 2009, 11:30 PM)
What type of ring compressor are you using?
That type of oil ring sucks. When I use a standard ratcheting band clamp type compressor I find it helpful to tap the compressor inline with the oil ring as I tighten the clamp. This helps (me anyway) the scraper seat the control ring. I use the handle from a body hammer and tap all around lightly... tighten a little more and tap again.
Ok start the flames.
but it works for me.That is how you do it, bet I'm faster though
QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Jul 27 2009, 11:30 PM)
What type of ring compressor are you using?
That type of oil ring sucks. When I use a standard ratcheting band clamp type compressor I find it helpful to tap the compressor inline with the oil ring as I tighten the clamp. This helps (me anyway) the scraper seat the control ring. I use the handle from a body hammer and tap all around lightly... tighten a little more and tap again.
Ok start the flames.
but it works for me.I used hasting rings last time...the oil ring is three pieces, but its not the same style...more like the second pic down on that chart above...
Seems like the rails need to have their gap right in between two of the spacer pieces so they can compress easier...
Side note...the 924S is all better.
The lower balance shaft was 180 degrees off from the previous belt change...not by me...the thing runs and purrs now...
That motor really opens up after 3800 rpms...right up to 6k....
I think I scared my son showing him what the car was made for...
I figured if it can handle me for 30 minutes of abuse, we did the belt right...
Screwy process, but now that I have done it...it not to bad to think about doing again...before it breaks.
Rich
After advice from a few other people I ahve decided to order up Hasting rings...
I should have checked when I ordered these, but a few vendors just call them "budget rings" or whatever...
I contacted the vendor and they will order me up Hasting rings.
I just dont like that oil ring...and I will never feel right about it for $30 bucks...just not worth it for me and my motor...
Ahh yes, another week will drift by...eventually I will get this damn thing done...its close now...
I guess I could always finish up cleaning the tin...
Rich
I should have checked when I ordered these, but a few vendors just call them "budget rings" or whatever...
I contacted the vendor and they will order me up Hasting rings.
I just dont like that oil ring...and I will never feel right about it for $30 bucks...just not worth it for me and my motor...
Ahh yes, another week will drift by...eventually I will get this damn thing done...its close now...
I guess I could always finish up cleaning the tin...
Rich
Well Rich,
2 down 2 to go. I was able to compress them by lightly tapping the compressor all the way around. I think this helped seat the oil ring better. The first 1 took about an hour but the second was about 5 minutes tops. I fixed my compressor by bending the bottom down a little so now it ratchets properly. Thanks again for the piston last night , I got it cleaned up pretty good so hopefully I will be able to install it later. I have to say though---this ring is a royal PITA so if you have a chance get the others.I took the ring off of the piston you gave me and tried it just for shits and giggles and it was a piece of cake.It went on with no effort.If I ever do this again I will deffinently order the hastings.
Joe
2 down 2 to go. I was able to compress them by lightly tapping the compressor all the way around. I think this helped seat the oil ring better. The first 1 took about an hour but the second was about 5 minutes tops. I fixed my compressor by bending the bottom down a little so now it ratchets properly. Thanks again for the piston last night , I got it cleaned up pretty good so hopefully I will be able to install it later. I have to say though---this ring is a royal PITA so if you have a chance get the others.I took the ring off of the piston you gave me and tried it just for shits and giggles and it was a piece of cake.It went on with no effort.If I ever do this again I will deffinently order the hastings.
Joe
QUOTE(JOE M @ Jul 28 2009, 07:10 PM)
Well Rich,
2 down 2 to go. I was able to compress them by lightly tapping the compressor all the way around. I think this helped seat the oil ring better. The first 1 took about an hour but the second was about 5 minutes tops. I fixed my compressor by bending the bottom down a little so now it ratchets properly. Thanks again for the piston last night , I got it cleaned up pretty good so hopefully I will be able to install it later. I have to say though---this ring is a royal PITA so if you have a chance get the others.I took the ring off of the piston you gave me and tried it just for shits and giggles and it was a piece of cake.It went on with no effort.If I ever do this again I will deffinently order the hastings.
Joe
The original is a one piece design...I am not a huge fan of that.
Those are Goetze rings. ( I may be wrong, but I think they are the OEM guys)
The three piece design allows the two scraper rings to act independantly...
I think that does a better job.
The Hasting rings have a three piece design, but they move more freely.
They have a different and IMHO better spacer design.
That is my concern with these Grant rings....If I cant get them to move freely I am worried they will not behave once in place.
I did a motor with Hasting rings last fall...finished it up at around 2AM and raced it at 7am....never had a ring seating issue at all. BTW...we won the day and the season with that motor....lol
I suspect we seated the rings really well that day. We were figuring it would not last given how fast I built it....but she still runs fine...
I just dont like this Grant design.
I spoke with aircooled.net (a great helpful vendor) and they are going to get me what I want...even they only have two listings on the site....either total seal rings, or "budget rings" so I contacted him to ask what they meant by budget rings.
He said he hates Grant rings and never sells them. I could quote him, but just suffice it to say that he used alot of four letter words to describe them...
He sells hastings or Deves rings.
I requested Hasting rings...
Good new is my parts from the last order from him arrived today so I can go put the lower end together.
Rich
I went with these. I'm a CSOB in most cases. Not here.
Why do you like those better than a three piece ring?
I have not purchased the set yet, so convince me...
Rich
I have not purchased the set yet, so convince me...
Rich
I have talked to & read many 911 engine experts....they are not hard to find.
Almost to a man they recommend Goetze rings and have no use for Deves style rings. I used the Deves on my last engine (part of my learning curve) and now have a set of shot Nicasil clys....it may have been my fault.....but maybe not.
Almost to a man they recommend Goetze rings and have no use for Deves style rings. I used the Deves on my last engine (part of my learning curve) and now have a set of shot Nicasil clys....it may have been my fault.....but maybe not.
IC....thanx for that data point.
I do have to say that the OEM rings are not the weak link...its the valve guides that drive the rebuild...they wear out, then the oil starts to flow...
Rich
I do have to say that the OEM rings are not the weak link...its the valve guides that drive the rebuild...they wear out, then the oil starts to flow...
Rich
So what gap does Hastings reccomend?
I`m almost done so I will stick with rings I have.But no doubt I will get different rings nex time.For now I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.By the way Rich I searched high and low for that broken part of my piston and I could not find it.It`s a risk but I am going to put it back together and run it as is.I think what you said last night made sense about the previous owner swaping out parts and that it may have fallen out.I think my ultimate goal would be to completely break down my engine and do a complete rebuild.But if it runs good after installing these rings than I can run it for a couple years and do it later.Either way im not sweatin it if something bad happens.
Joe
Joe
That is the spirit...
I have another one if you need more parts....lol
rich
I have another one if you need more parts....lol
rich
So, more learning...I am always learning.
Coming from reputable sources, people who have used all the brands, first hand experience, air cooled motors...just so we dont get into any replies that will question the sources of info.
I have spoken to vendors, five professional porsche engine builders, and several amateur engine builders. This is how I make my decisions..I get more than one source of an opinion...then I choose.
The Grant Rings use a oil expander that has a reputation of breaking.
None of the pros that I spoke with would touch them.
Apparently this is a well known issue...news to me.
The ends of the expander, the little red and green areas, break off.
This is not happening at installation, (remember these guys are pros) yet when they are run for the first little bit...while seating.
Deves ended up to lands in a similar level as the Gates rings. For some of the same reasons, the oil rings have broken.
The hasting rings seem to be OK, yet also not super easy to install correctly.
The rings have never failed me.....yet. The pros have used them...the CW pros wont use them ever.
The Goetze rings seem to be a close match for the OEM rings...they may even be OEM rings...not a fact that I have verified...just marketing
The oil scraper is rugged and holds up well, and its one piece with less little bits that could and do fail...
It has a spring (so its not really one piece)
Based upon the oil ring design, they tend to be a bit easier to install.
Never had an immediate failure.
The Pros dont even question using these...its just what they do.
So, overall, I am leaning towards the Goetze rings at this point.
I have yet to find someone who says they suck...
I have found mixed opinions on Hastings, Deves, and Grant rings.
Nothing bad about Goetze...
So, that pushed me over to the Goetze camp...
Rich
Coming from reputable sources, people who have used all the brands, first hand experience, air cooled motors...just so we dont get into any replies that will question the sources of info.
I have spoken to vendors, five professional porsche engine builders, and several amateur engine builders. This is how I make my decisions..I get more than one source of an opinion...then I choose.
The Grant Rings use a oil expander that has a reputation of breaking.
None of the pros that I spoke with would touch them.
Apparently this is a well known issue...news to me.
The ends of the expander, the little red and green areas, break off.
This is not happening at installation, (remember these guys are pros) yet when they are run for the first little bit...while seating.
Deves ended up to lands in a similar level as the Gates rings. For some of the same reasons, the oil rings have broken.
The hasting rings seem to be OK, yet also not super easy to install correctly.
The rings have never failed me.....yet. The pros have used them...the CW pros wont use them ever.
The Goetze rings seem to be a close match for the OEM rings...they may even be OEM rings...not a fact that I have verified...just marketing
The oil scraper is rugged and holds up well, and its one piece with less little bits that could and do fail...
It has a spring (so its not really one piece)
Based upon the oil ring design, they tend to be a bit easier to install.
Never had an immediate failure.
The Pros dont even question using these...its just what they do.
So, overall, I am leaning towards the Goetze rings at this point.
I have yet to find someone who says they suck...
I have found mixed opinions on Hastings, Deves, and Grant rings.
Nothing bad about Goetze...
So, that pushed me over to the Goetze camp...
Rich
Its interesting to me that within these aircooled circles this has never been talked about...
I found some very entrenched opinions and some aweful stories that revolve around using the wrong type of rings...
So, I am hoping to save someone else a costly experience...
Rich
I found some very entrenched opinions and some aweful stories that revolve around using the wrong type of rings...
So, I am hoping to save someone else a costly experience...
Rich
Damn Rich,
It makes me want to take everything apart and start all over.Well I guess if the rings end up breaking( and they will because thats my luck) I will probably tear the whole damn engine apart and go through everything 100%. I am looking at buying a book on rebuilds for this engine. Hoping for the best, all I want is a couple of years out of it the way it is. After that I will do a rebuild or possibly an upgrade to a 2.0. If I ever finish it I will drive it to your house.
Joe
It makes me want to take everything apart and start all over.Well I guess if the rings end up breaking( and they will because thats my luck) I will probably tear the whole damn engine apart and go through everything 100%. I am looking at buying a book on rebuilds for this engine. Hoping for the best, all I want is a couple of years out of it the way it is. After that I will do a rebuild or possibly an upgrade to a 2.0. If I ever finish it I will drive it to your house.
Joe
QUOTE(JOE M @ Jul 31 2009, 08:26 PM)
Damn Rich,
It makes me want to take everything apart and start all over.Well I guess if the rings end up breaking( and they will because thats my luck) I will probably tear the whole damn engine apart and go through everything 100%. I am looking at buying a book on rebuilds for this engine. Hoping for the best, all I want is a couple of years out of it the way it is. After that I will do a rebuild or possibly an upgrade to a 2.0. If I ever finish it I will drive it to your house.
Joe
I expect to see you by next weekend...there will be a cold beer waiting for you..
Rich
Wow there is a beer involved. Damn thats motivation!!!!LOL
Hopefully it will be done by next weekend.
Hopefully it will be done by next weekend.
ok...you can have the little Jaegermeister also...and a pabst...if there are any left.
RIch
RIch
Again I haven't seen it, never had a come back. They look like the same ring as on new T1 mahles.
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