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blabla914
So I've been looking at raising the spindles on my front end for a while now. I think this winter I may actually do it. The thing is I am using 3" caliper mount 911 struts. While the brakes are adequate for my current use which is street and AX, it seems silly to spend the money to modify 3" struts. I'm worried that I'll finally have the time to start doing some track events and then find out my brakes are not up to the task. This is a 6 cylinder car with a 2.0L E motor and I'll be running 205-50-15/225-50-15 for tires. I also know from past track event experience I am tough on brakes.

3.5" boge struts are not so hard to find, so that part is easy. Next is calipers. My initial thought was I'd just use stock ATE 3.5" calipers.

Then I learned that Wilwood makes Dynapro 4 piston calipers in 3.5" lug mount with 1.25" or 1.38" piston bores. This should get me right around the same piston area as 48mm piston 911 calipers. The draw of the Wilwoods is they are new, lighter weight, 4 piston calipers for $150-$175 each.

Anybody actually using these? The piston areas don't match up perfectly. I can get a little more area or a little less. Curious to know if you went 1.25" or 1.38" piston bore. I'm also worried about how streetable these really are since they have no dust seals. I drive my car 5-10k/year on the street.

Right now it seems a lot more sensible to just use stock porsche calipers, but I figured I'd ask before I go through the trouble to really dig into this and look at pad areas, mount diameters, pad availability, etc, etc, etc.

Thanks for the help.

kelly
jt914-6
PM Ron, pcar916. He has wilwood calipers, though don't know which ones. Go to "carrera brakes 19 or 23 master cyl." topic in the paddock. Thread #17.
blabla914
Hey thanks, I don't know how I missed that thread.

So now I'd like to hear if anybody is running 3" M calipers and struts on a small bore 914-6 on the track.

Being realistic I will probably never be able to afford more than a 2.7L motor or a mild 3.0L. It's more likely I will stay with a 2.0, 2.2, or 2.4L motor. If Andy can run Carrera brakes with a 3.6L which has roughly 275hp it seems to me 3" front struts should be able to keep up with 150-200hp.

The specs as I understand it.

911T/E '69-73 pad area 8.14 sqin, piston dia 1.89", rotor thickness .780", rotor dia 11.1"

Carrera '84-89 pad area 11.78 sq in, piston dia 1.89", rotor thickness 1.1", rotor dia 11.1"

I'm pretty sure those are correct. If I've made an error, please let me know.

According to the Wilwood site the increased pad area will decrease pad temps and increase pad life. The other braking advantage of Carrera brakes is the increased mass of the thicker rotor. However, with my small motor do I need it?

3" struts and calipers are cheap and plentiful. By using the old 914 fronts on the rear I use the same pad front/rear and the pad size seems to be well supported by Hawk, Pagid, Ferodo, and Mintex. Personally I'd rather have big ducts and small brakes.

What do you all think?

Kelly
J P Stein
The heat sink of the Carrera rotors is gud. The larger pad area just puts heat into the rotors quicker. If you can lock them up, they're adequate.

Big ducts sounds like a plan.
blabla914
Thanks JP. I got a plan for an effective duct.

I just read on another post that 3" boge strut inserts are not compatible with 3.5" boge struts. Can somebody tell me if that is correct. My understanding was the boge strut insert did not change when Porsche went to the 3.5" strut.

kelly
Downunderman
I'm using them. But i've gone the whole hog. I wouldn't bother just on one end. Mine have been okay without dust seals, you just have to give them a good wash down with brake cleaner before you push the pistons back in.
JazonJJordan
Howard, that is all right;

Brake lines- pedal work and alum stay too.

Details at work~ Thanks- Jzn

shades.gif
stewteral
QUOTE(blabla914 @ Sep 6 2009, 10:28 AM) *

So I've been looking at raising the spindles on my front end for a while now. I think this winter I may actually do it. The thing is I am using 3" caliper mount 911 struts. While the brakes are adequate for my current use which is street and AX, it seems silly to spend the money to modify 3" struts. I'm worried that I'll finally have the time to start doing some track events and then find out my brakes are not up to the task. This is a 6 cylinder car with a 2.0L E motor and I'll be running 205-50-15/225-50-15 for tires. I also know from past track event experience I am tough on brakes.

3.5" boge struts are not so hard to find, so that part is easy. Next is calipers. My initial thought was I'd just use stock ATE 3.5" calipers.

Then I learned that Wilwood makes Dynapro 4 piston calipers in 3.5" lug mount with 1.25" or 1.38" piston bores. This should get me right around the same piston area as 48mm piston 911 calipers. The draw of the Wilwoods is they are new, lighter weight, 4 piston calipers for $150-$175 each.

Anybody actually using these? The piston areas don't match up perfectly. I can get a little more area or a little less. Curious to know if you went 1.25" or 1.38" piston bore. I'm also worried about how streetable these really are since they have no dust seals. I drive my car 5-10k/year on the street.

Right now it seems a lot more sensible to just use stock porsche calipers, but I figured I'd ask before I go through the trouble to really dig into this and look at pad areas, mount diameters, pad availability, etc, etc, etc.

Thanks for the help.

kelly


Hi Kelly:

I've been running ALL Wilwood brakes for 6 years on my 914 V8 street/track car and have never run out of brakes. I am running the Dynalite II cast calipers with the same piston diameters you listed and the MOST I have paid for them is $103.
They aren't PRETTY, but they WORK!

I'm using the 12.19" x 1.25" rotors (about $45 ea) mounted to standard Wilwood 2" offset mounting hats in which I drilled the 911 wheel pattern. When I bolt the rotors solidly behind my wheel spacers, I set up a dial indicator to get the rotors withing .005" out of center.

I also highly recommend dumping the German master cylinder and ESPECIALLY the brake proportioning valve. Again, I went to Wilwood for their complete dual-master cylinder-balance bar package (3/4", but .700" would give you an easy pedal) and replumbed EVERYTHING with new American brake lines and fittings. Throw in 4 "Aeroquip" type brake lines (I paid $11 ea.) and you will have the hardest pedal you have ever felt: it hardly moves!
....but the brakes are THERE. Remote reservoirs easily mount under the front hood.

I made my caliper to strut & swing-arm adapter myself: very easy. I used mild steel plate, then stacked spacers to get the right alignment with the rotor and then welded the spacers to the adapters. It's not rocket science, just careful measuring. Of course the adapters take care of the issue of 3.0" and 3.5" parts.

The best news of all is that these brake parts are used by the NASCAR guys, so they is competition and they are CHEAP! The worst you can do is via Summit Racing (always good prices) and if you have tight budget, there is a ton of this stuff on eBay.

Best of luck,

Terry


stewteral
QUOTE(stewteral @ Sep 6 2009, 10:43 PM) *

QUOTE(blabla914 @ Sep 6 2009, 10:28 AM) *

So I've been looking at raising the spindles on my front end for a while now. I think this winter I may actually do it. The thing is I am using 3" caliper mount 911 struts. While the brakes are adequate for my current use which is street and AX, it seems silly to spend the money to modify 3" struts. I'm worried that I'll finally have the time to start doing some track events and then find out my brakes are not up to the task. This is a 6 cylinder car with a 2.0L E motor and I'll be running 205-50-15/225-50-15 for tires. I also know from past track event experience I am tough on brakes.

3.5" boge struts are not so hard to find, so that part is easy. Next is calipers. My initial thought was I'd just use stock ATE 3.5" calipers.

Then I learned that Wilwood makes Dynapro 4 piston calipers in 3.5" lug mount with 1.25" or 1.38" piston bores. This should get me right around the same piston area as 48mm piston 911 calipers. The draw of the Wilwoods is they are new, lighter weight, 4 piston calipers for $150-$175 each.

Anybody actually using these? The piston areas don't match up perfectly. I can get a little more area or a little less. Curious to know if you went 1.25" or 1.38" piston bore. I'm also worried about how streetable these really are since they have no dust seals. I drive my car 5-10k/year on the street.

Right now it seems a lot more sensible to just use stock porsche calipers, but I figured I'd ask before I go through the trouble to really dig into this and look at pad areas, mount diameters, pad availability, etc, etc, etc.

Thanks for the help.

kelly


Hi Kelly:

I've been running ALL Wilwood brakes for 6 years on my 914 V8 street/track car and have never run out of brakes. I am running the Dynalite II cast calipers with the same piston diameters you listed and the MOST I have paid for them is $103.
They aren't PRETTY, but they WORK!

I'm using the 12.19" x 1.25" rotors (about $45 ea) mounted to standard Wilwood 2" offset mounting hats in which I drilled the 911 wheel pattern. When I bolt the rotors solidly behind my wheel spacers, I set up a dial indicator to get the rotors withing .005" out of center.

I also highly recommend dumping the German master cylinder and ESPECIALLY the brake proportioning valve. Again, I went to Wilwood for their complete dual-master cylinder-balance bar package (3/4", but .700" would give you an easy pedal) and replumbed EVERYTHING with new American brake lines and fittings. Throw in 4 "Aeroquip" type brake lines (I paid $11 ea.) and you will have the hardest pedal you have ever felt: it hardly moves!
....but the brakes are THERE. Remote reservoirs easily mount under the front hood.

I made my caliper to strut & swing-arm adapter myself: very easy. I used mild steel plate, then stacked spacers to get the right alignment with the rotor and then welded the spacers to the adapters. It's not rocket science, just careful measuring. Of course the adapters take care of the issue of 3.0" and 3.5" parts.

The best news of all is that these brake parts are used by the NASCAR guys, so they is competition and they are CHEAP! The worst you can do is via Summit Racing (always good prices) and if you have tight budget, there is a ton of this stuff on eBay.

Best of luck,

Terry


Dang, not all my pics made it on the first posting: enjoy

Best,
Terry
Van914
stewteral,
Can you please post close up of the rear adapter plate? I run Wilwoods on the front and would love to fit them to the rear.
Thanks
Van
Randal

When we were building up The Beast we tried a hybrid approach using the big aftermarket calipers.

This approach didn't work because we didn't match the big calipers with the right master cylinder.

So if your going with Wilwood use their entire system.

The entire "systems" are pretty reasonable, especially if you buy them from one of the big sprint car distributors.

BTW we ended up using front Carrera calipers at all four positioins, which work GREAT>


blabla914
Wow guys thanks for all the replies. That definately gives me some
Options to consider. While some will defend the stock prop valve to the bitter end, mine went in the bin long ago. A full. Wilwood setup does seem like a nice setup and their prices are attractive, but I'm not sure I need as much brake as you guys.

Thanks again for the Picts

Kelly
stewteral
Click to view attachment
QUOTE(Van914 @ Sep 7 2009, 04:30 AM) *

stewteral,
Can you please post close up of the rear adapter plate? I run Wilwoods on the front and would love to fit them to the rear.
Thanks
Van


Hey Van,

I'm sorry to report I have only 1 additional photo of the Wilwood caliper mount on the rear swingarms. See the attached photo. The wheel spacers are HUGE to space my 11" x 17" rims properly.

I even failed to take photos of the adapters, but they are very straight-forward.
I started with a cardboard design, then made a test piece from fiber board and finally the actual parts from 3/8" plate. 1/4" plate would work too as long as you work out the correct lateral spacing so the caliper fits correctly on the rotor.
The good part about using the adapters is not only working around the 3" vs 3.5" mounting issue, but I was able to also space the calipers radially to fit the larger diameter 12.19" Wilwood rotors.

I built the whole V8 conversion car at home with hand tools, Harbor Freight air tools and a wire-feed welder. I started with a bare monocoque, welded in a full rollcage and kept going. I got used to making most of the parts needed to make it all work, so the caliper adapters were a pretty easy chore.

I hope this is encouraging to you to give it a try!
Best,
Terry
stewteral
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment[attachmentid=190
093]
QUOTE(Van914 @ Sep 7 2009, 04:30 AM) *

stewteral,
Can you please post close up of the rear adapter plate? I run Wilwoods on the front and would love to fit them to the rear.
Thanks
Van



Hey Van914:

I was under the car today (where else would I spend my Sunday?) and noticed that I could get a good view of the rear brake caliper adapter. SO.... I got the camera and snapped a couple shots for you.

As you can see, it is very simple adapter: 2 holes @ 3" centers to mount to the swing-arm and 2 holes @ 3.5" centers to mount the caliper. The fact that I needed to space the caliper OUT (radially) also created the spacing for the holes to NOT end up on top of each other.

I set of nice "Aeroquip" brake lines with the 90 degree bend built in and it was all done!

Given the price and quality of Wilwood products, I can only recommend them highly as the vendor for your brakes. Check out SummitRacing.com for prices.
Even if individual parts are not LISTED, if you search, using the right Summit P/N, you will find it!

Best,
Terry
Van914
Terry,
Thanks for the picture. I have Wilwoods on the front now.
Thanks
Van
stewteral
QUOTE(Van914 @ Sep 14 2009, 05:35 AM) *

Terry,
Thanks for the picture. I have Wilwoods on the front now.
Thanks
Van


Your welcome Van!

Any chance you have any photos for your front caliper adapters? I'm always interested to see if someone came up with a better design.

Terry
Van914
Terry,
No adapters needed. I have the Dynalites with the 3.5" mounting lugs. I use a Carrera stock rotor.
Van


QUOTE(stewteral @ Sep 16 2009, 01:25 AM) *

QUOTE(Van914 @ Sep 14 2009, 05:35 AM) *

Terry,
Thanks for the picture. I have Wilwoods on the front now.
Thanks
Van


Your welcome Van!

Any chance you have any photos for your front caliper adapters? I'm always interested to see if someone came up with a better design.

Terry

stewteral
QUOTE(Van914 @ Sep 16 2009, 06:09 AM) *

Terry,
No adapters needed. I have the Dynalites with the 3.5" mounting lugs. I use a Carrera stock rotor.
Van

Van,

OK, I've got it now: very clever! If you plan to run track events, I can highly recommend the wilwood 12.19" x 1.25" rotors to do the job. As I mentioned, I have them all the way around and after running some hard laps at Streets of Willow Springs, my pyrometer gave me readings for 425 degrees in front and 320 in the rear. I'm also running the Wilwood 575 degree brake fluid, so all it well.
However, with the Carrera rotors, you might experience some brake fade. For street driving, you are in FINE shape!

Terry

QUOTE(stewteral @ Sep 16 2009, 01:25 AM) *

QUOTE(Van914 @ Sep 14 2009, 05:35 AM) *

Terry,
Thanks for the picture. I have Wilwoods on the front now.
Thanks
Van


Your welcome Van!

Any chance you have any photos for your front caliper adapters? I'm always interested to see if someone came up with a better design.

Terry


blabla914
Thanks a lot for your replies Terry and Van!

Terry, First let me say I love home built cars like yours. Nice job. That's a lot of work. Are you using calipers with 3.5" or 5.25" spacing? Those mounting bolts look pretty wide to be 3.5". The adapter certainly does eliminate the whole 3" vs 3.5" strut and opens up a lot of possibilities in the rear. I see you are using 3/4" master cylinder. Do you know what size caliper pistons you are using? I see you can get a few different sizes, but none of the sizes align precisely with the caliper piston area I currently have.

Van I assume you are using a Porsche master cylinder. What diamter is it? Do you know what size pistons you are running on your front calipers? What rear calipers are you using?

Thanks for the help.

Kelly
Van914
I have a 19mm master. I am using Carrera fronts on the rear. You sould be able to reuse your fronts on the rears. I have the smaller 1.25 of the willwoods on the front but wish I had the larger 1.38. I am using stock 911 rotors front and rear. I did have to space the rear caliper using washers and used longer bolts from NAPA. It works and I drive on the street mostly. My friend had had them on his race 914 for 6 years and never has had a brake problem.
Good luck
Van
stewteral
QUOTE(blabla914 @ Oct 1 2009, 06:31 PM) *

Thanks a lot for your replies Terry and Van!

Terry, First let me say I love home built cars like yours. Nice job. That's a lot of work. Are you using calipers with 3.5" or 5.25" spacing? Those mounting bolts look pretty wide to be 3.5". The adapter certainly does eliminate the whole 3" vs 3.5" strut and opens up a lot of possibilities in the rear. I see you are using 3/4" master cylinder. Do you know what size caliper pistons you are using? I see you can get a few different sizes, but none of the sizes align precisely with the caliper piston area I currently have.

Van I assume you are using a Porsche master cylinder. What diamter is it? Do you know what size pistons you are running on your front calipers? What rear calipers are you using?

Thanks for the help.

Kelly


Hi Kelly,

I'm afraid I only know how to speak Wilwood and have no idea what your piston diameters are. However, you might be able to use the below for comparison:

Right you are: the low-cost Wilwood calipers I used (Dynalite II, P/N 120-1057) have 5.25" C/L mounting ears. I bought them a few years ago when the prices were $102.95 ea. UNBEATABLE!...and they WORK!

The caliper pistons are 1.38" diameter and the pedal pressure takes a strong foot when on track (I'm guessing 150 -180 lbs). No room to whine here: F1 drivers have to push at 300 lbs! On normal street driving, I don't even think about the effort and like the way it is. Keep in mind that with dual master cylinders, each master operates only 2 calipers.

For an "easier" pedal, you could go to the .700" diameter master cylinders (260-6088)in the balance bar pedal set. This master also has the remote reservoir.

I hope this is of some help to you,
Terry
Terry
stewteral
[quote name='blabla914' date='Oct 1 2009, 06:31 PM' post='1220823']
Thanks a lot for your replies Terry and Van!

Terry, First let me say I love home built cars like yours. Nice job. That's a lot of work. Are you using calipers with 3.5" or 5.25" spacing? Those mounting bolts look pretty wide to be 3.5". The adapter certainly does eliminate the whole 3" vs 3.5" strut and opens up a lot of possibilities in the rear. I see you are using 3/4" master cylinder. Do you know what size caliper pistons you are using? I see you can get a few different sizes, but none of the sizes align precisely with the caliper piston area I currently have.

Van I assume you are using a Porsche master cylinder. What diamter is it? Do you know what size pistons you are running on your front calipers? What rear calipers are you using?

Thanks for the help.

Kelly

Hey Kelly,

I replied a few days before, but somehow it did not get uploaded. Response Deux:

I'm using Wilwood Dynalite II calipers (P/N 120-1057) with 5.25" mounting.
The wider mounting actually made it EASIER to use my adapter as there was room for all the bolts. (Great calipers: $103 and they WORK)

The piston diameters are 1.38" along with the 3/4" Dual-master cylinder balance bar peddle assy. Given the ratios of master cyl area to caliper piston area, the pedal take firm pressure on the street and a HARD push on the track (I'm guessing 150 -180 lbs) I am happy with the setup as the pedal is HARD and has very little travel. The compromise would be SOFTER pedal and LONGER pedal travel. NOTE: keep in mind that in my setup: 1 master cylinder pushes 2 calipers.

BTW: for the record 19mm = 3/4"

You have not shared the piston diameter (area) of your calipers, but if you like a SOFT push, Wilwood also has .700" diameter master cylinders with remote reservoirs (so you don't have to crawl in on hands and knees and try to fill the reservoirs in the footwell in the DARK). The reduction in piston area gives you a 17% softer peddle than the 3/4" master.....along with that much more peddle travel.

Ah dem trade-offs!

Good luck,
Terry
JazonJJordan
popcorn[1].gif
Matt Romanowski
I've got Wilwood Superlights all the way around on my car. Fronts bolt right on late 911 struts and I cut the mount off the rear trailing arms and welded a new one on with the right mounts.

The fronts:

120-3192 R Wilwood SLIIA Forged Superlite 1.75 Pistons, .81 Rotor
120-3192 L Wilwood SLIIA Forged Superlite 1.75 Pistons, .81 Rotor

The rears:

120-7432R Wilwood Forged Superlite 1.38 Pistons, .81 Rotor
120-7432L Wilwood Forged Superlite 1.38 Pistons, .81 Rotor

The MC is the 23mm unit from Smart Racing. I have a Wilwood adjustable bias mounted in the engine compartment that is about 1 turn from full open. The pedal is very solid and the car stops better than any other 914 I've driven. Better than Boxster and Carrera brakes.

If you are going to spend money on it, go big once. You will be able to drive much quicker than messing around with brakes that are too small.

blabla914
Matt,

Thanks for your reply. Especially the part numbers. Much appreciated

Kelly
Joe Ricard
With 205/50 tires up front you can only use so much brake massiveness. Untill you go to a bigger tire that is much stickier than street compounds you will never be able to use all the stopping power.
blabla914
Joe,

You are absolutely correct. Tires stop the car. It really depends on what I end up doing with the car in the near future.

The way my car is right now I would be classed in FP at an SCCA solo event where I would be utterly uncompetitive. It would allow me to run slicks. I could also move to Hoosiers for R comp rubber which would allow me to run the 245-50-15.

I am primarily looking at these calipers because if I decide to go 3.5" strut I will need calipers anyway. In addition to stopping power the Wilwoods are brand new calipers for a very reasonable price and appear to be about a 6 lb un sprung weight savings. Granted that's a very small weight savings, but I'm just trying to make a plan and balance all the factors.

kelly
Joe Ricard
6 pounds unsprung is pretty significant.
Only other thing that is more bang for the weight reduction is rotating weight. Engine parts and wheels.
stewteral
QUOTE(blabla914 @ Oct 1 2009, 05:31 PM) *

Thanks a lot for your replies Terry and Van!

Terry, First let me say I love home built cars like yours. Nice job. That's a lot of work. Are you using calipers with 3.5" or 5.25" spacing? Those mounting bolts look pretty wide to be 3.5". The adapter certainly does eliminate the whole 3" vs 3.5" strut and opens up a lot of possibilities in the rear. I see you are using 3/4" master cylinder. Do you know what size caliper pistons you are using? I see you can get a few different sizes, but none of the sizes align precisely with the caliper piston area I currently have.

Van I assume you are using a Porsche master cylinder. What diamter is it? Do you know what size pistons you are running on your front calipers? What rear calipers are you using?

Thanks for the help.

Kelly


Hi Kelly,

If I haven't answered your questions yet, sorry I left you hanging...I missed your posting until just now.
answers: 1) the Calipers are Wilwood Dynalite 4-piston w/ 5.25" mounting tabs. These are an amazing bargain at around $120 ea.(Summit Racing) The wide mounting works well with the narrow Porsche mounting as it allows room for the 4 bolts in the small adapter plates I made.
2)Yes: 3/4" Wilwood master cyls w/ balance bar pedal set (another bargain priced assy) going to the Dynalite calipers w/ 1.38" pistons. I re-plumbed the car with all American brake fittings, lines and Aeroquip flex lines. The result is an amazingly HARD, non-flexing pedal. The pedal pressure is a bit high at around 130 lbs for max braking. Using .700" masters would bring the effort down to an easier push for those who want an easier pedal, however, when I'm on-track, I don't even think about it. That said, I DID go to .700" master on my clutch, using the Wilwood PULLING slave cylinder and that got the pedal just right! For my V8, I have a real monster of a clutch that takes a lot of force to operate!

I hope this is helpful, albeit late info,
Terry
Eddie914
Matt,

What diameter rotors are you using?

Thanks

Eddie
stownsen914
I have been using Wilwood Superlites on my 914/6 track car for a number of years. They are the 3.5" spacing, so I made adapters at both ends to use them. I have 12" x 1.25" Coleman rotors on the front and Carrera rotors on the rear. The pistons in my calipers are 1 3/4" in the front and 1 3/8" in the rear. I am running dual master cylinders with a balance bar - if I remember correctly they are 7/8" for front and rear.

I've been happy with the Wilwoods overall and will stick with them. They do need to be rebuilt from time to time since there aren't any dust seals.

Scott
Matt Romanowski
QUOTE(Eddie914 @ Jan 28 2010, 11:54 AM) *

Matt,

What diameter rotors are you using?

Thanks

Eddie


Sorry for not seeing this. I haven't been over here in awhile. I'm using 911-351-041-20 for front rotors (74-83 911 Vented Disc) and 901-352-041-14 rear rotors (74-83 911 rear rotors). If you have any other questions, email me at bmoc@mattromanowski.com

As far as the tires only being so big, that is true, but having complete faith in your brakes along with consistency in their appication and feedback makes you go faster. I've never heard of someone who put big brakes on a car wish they had smaller....
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