My first job in 1973 was working at a KFC.

It was all pressure cooked.

Well, we can’t let you totally off the hook, because you singled out 914 owners as the source of all your misery. I’d challenge you to define what a “typical” 914 owner is and how they are any different from anyone else.

You still take it way too personally when someone declines the final proposal 10 months after they got on the list. You were quick to mention how much things have changed in that time, with fuel and parts prices. Well, life changes too, and at a much faster rate than anything else.

You have capitalized on the fact that your personality allows you to focus on something and do it well. You can control virtually every aspect of the process….with exception of the customer. A customer is nothing like a crankshaft or procedure that can be rationally ordered and processed. The way you see it, the customer is just waiting in line to be processed, and that is a model for failure. Keep doing what you do well, but you need to revise your process so that you can accommodate the inevitable challenges that will come your way.

You mentioned that when someone declines a proposal it throws off your schedule for the whole year. The problem is that you obviously built a schedule with the anticipation of 100% acceptance of your proposals. You could build a business model that expects a 90% acceptance rate, but you would be better off just accepting the fact that some of your time is going to be spent on motors that never see the light of day.

Now, if you can just come up with a nice, solid 150hp 2270 with nickies and ceramic lifters that can be bought for $8000, I think you’d be surprised at how many people take you up on it. You wouldn’t need exotic head work or other state of the art features to make 150hp that will run 100k miles. As the value of these cars increases, $8000 for a nice street motor is going to become increasingly attractive.

Keep up the good work. People can say a lot of things about Jake Raby, but boring and indifferent are not among them.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Yes, I could of took less. Take the Nickies off, That I asked for. Take off the engine coating package, that I asked for, Heck why not bring some of those cracked finned cylinders. Do I really need thoses fins on them cylinders? No, they only help keep the engine a little cooler. Come on Jake you know what I asked for. I asked for a 2270cc with Nickies, the special coatings, EFI, DTM, all the bells & whisles. Anything less was not the engine I was putting my deposit on. Yes, you were working on the EFI as we first talked. But you seem to always low ball the prices of your engines. Even when you were looking for someone to take my spot here on this board you stated "Anywhere from 7K clear to 14.5K could be the end result". When $19,547 is the end result Not 14.5K.

Ok, so let me get this right. When you get an engine from you,you start off with a phone call like I did and get a "rough" estimate ($11,000). Then send $200 deposit. Then phone calls every now & then. Send core engine down to you. Then 10 months later you give proposal that shows $11,000 "rough" estimate is now $19,547. Now I'm in "control" to bargian down to one I did not ask for. And no way go to the back of the list and let someone most likely be glad to have an ealier spot thats waiting for a 2270cc. And now finding out all the price increases, not keeping client inform so you can't get your deposit or engine core back.

Thanks it's been an expensive lesson on engine builders, Ralph

What blows my mind is thinking...

"$19,000 for an engine... AND I have to supply the core..."

Wow... That just strikes me as wild... Just think of the cool engines I could get and install for my 914 that will do equal power for half that cost... Sure it wont be a TIV, but man... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

Round 2 or 3? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

ROG914,
I have explained myself as thoroughly as I see fit and won't go into further detail. Fact is that I have NEVER sold a 2270 engine for 19,547 bucks- i do believe the most expensive to date is 15K. Most people that want that many options want a larger displacement engine, like the 2563...

If you have further questions/comments you have my email address. The continual posts and the fact that THIS WAS NEVER BROUGHT UP TO ME VIA EMAIL OR PHONE only proves your true intent. One thing that really annoys me are people that won't say anything to your face, but then come here to a forum and spill the beans before they are cooked. This could have also been taken up on my forum, but of course I moderate it and the damage may noyt have been as bad as one may have anticipated here.... Hell if you would have approached me in any way other than this you probably would have gotten the 200.00 back and maybe even the core- not a snowballs chance in hell thats happening now!

On second thought if I give him back the 200 bucks and the core he would not have a leg to stand on.... or a gripe in the world with me.....Hmmmn

As far as a 19K engine- I have 5 engines in my super hero line up that are going for 23K+. One of those customers has already bought 6 engines from me. These guys chose the larger, more expensive engines and two of them insisted on those engines even against my recommendation of a 2270, that would do what they need andd then some. Of course none of these are going into a 914, I only have two 914 builds on the wait list at the present, both are standard engines and one is for the earliest VIN LE car that has been recorded to date.

Wow

Look what happens when I post (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Ralph opened a door to questions which a lot of member seem to have. The Raby Garage motors (including pricing) was always avoided in posts. I have read other posts that someone asks for a price (general inquiry in the garage) and got nothing but (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bs.gif)
This I suspect this is why the thred has gotten attention. Inquiring minds want to know.

The final price has no bearing on my opinion, as I charge an hourly rate and understand. but it really seems we, at the 914 club, are a very small part of your business, but yet, in your reply post, you still bring up the 14/15 factor, rub salt in the wounds. And your reply still sounded like a infomercial. If the 914 owner are such deadbeats...why fucking bother ? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

Later

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) Burp...

what i'm still wondering is why Jake doesnt build a more standarized engine, one with the updates but without custom working....

why does everything have to have years of R&D work....


the 914 engine is very well designed IMHO....not too much goes wrong when properly maintained....and people are still on the original set of everythings.

I do like the idea of updated components...i think its *KEY* that this engine starts drifting into more power and more durability....but i dont have any reason why that should cost 11k.....

and i dont think its right to trash the 914 community for a minority of your problems.

Thats the reason why I stated last time this happened that I was stopping 914 engine development/ building, but I was bombarded with people asking me NOT to do that.... It is a very small part of what I do, but I figure that one day it may get better- who knows..

As far as avoiding prices, as you have seen here the options can double the price of the engine pretty easily if the customer goes wild... And every time I post a price i6t comes back to bite me in the sass- thats why I don't do it, because it varies so much with the custom nature of the engines.

Tonight I am working on the 914 engine build price sheet. Since this is hot on my mind and has totally ruined my productivity today I figure I may as well benefit from it somehow. I am making prices for 4 engines and thats it- thats all that will be available and they are not available with more options than they are priced with. Hopefully this will end all the questions and complaining and make things easier for me and give me more time to work on custom engines for other applications with less admin headaches..

I will post it here later tonight.

Five years ago is when I started doing all the development work and getting away from the standardized builds. I did this to REDUCE the amount of engines I built to make each of them better. Then I gave the engines 1/2 as much bench time as I do now as well. The prices I am making up as we speak will be for an engine equal to that without the development work and I will utilize those more developed parts for the other builds. The engines I will offer are still not cheap, but will definately be easierfor me to dictate price wise. This era of engines I will be replicating is just about the same time frame that flatvw'e engine was built and it performs great. They will not have the 100K lifespan that a current 2270 has, but not many guys drive their cars that much these days.

I am one that thinks nothing is ever good enough- looks like I'll eep marching on with my engines in other fields of use as fully developed units and will take a step backward to hopefully keep the 914 world satisfied a bit. If this doesn't work i don't know what else I can do but drop the 914 from my line up and only sell kits and parts.

QUOTE (Headrage @ Nov 28 2005, 03:08 PM)

My first job in 1973 was working at a KFC.   It was all pressure cooked.

"I have an extensive collection of nametags and hairnets"----Wayne Cambell (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif)

J

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)
Jake do you mean you'll only be offering 2270 kits and up?

I had a guy make a snide comment one time about me charging him $35.00/hr for metal werk which is actually pretty low. My response was, well then you go buy a 1500.00 welder, 2000.00 werth of body tools, build a garage and do it yourself. Couple weeks later he came by while I was MAKING his rocker panels and said "I guess that's what you meant huh?" You pay for the knowledge and tools. Go bitch to your doctor or laywer or accountant next time they hand you a bill. Oh yeah, they deserve it because they are a "professional" and we're just mechanics and bodymen right? Want the toys,? you gotta PAY to PLAY. This thread has run it's course. Go back and re-read the original post and if you do so OBJECTIVLY you will see that what Jake states is understood in the original post as far as the additional option costs. Knowledge cots whether it's from a book or from research. Why the hell do you think medications are so expensive?? Sure some fat cat is making it big but it takes a tremendous amount of money to get the drug's "perfected" if they ever are. Rant over. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

I expended over 40K last year in testing and developments....... That was VERY easy to do. This year my R&D budget was depleted before September arrived. That was MY money- not share holders and I didn't borrow it from a bank. 2K extra was given to the lifter fund by guys here and other fourums just so we could finish the lifter testing since we spent 12K and still had no answer, but then ran out of funds.....

I am already working on 2006's R&D funds for the Turbo work and its not even December yet..

That money doesn't grow on trees and I'll be damned if I'll do all that test work and not employ those changes and parts on the engines that deserve it..

I have to admit

you guys are great Politicians.

Sorry Scotty...your rant has no foundation to stand on. The plain fact of the matter is at 35 an hour, you can't pay a rent, tools, and equipement. Are you a Body shop?

35 and hour insults everybody in the Automotive trade.

Nuff said

Not questioning what you do to engines but dont you offer a Type IV to your bug customers? If you do how is any different from one you would offer to the 914 community beside how the cooling is set up? I would love to have a better, faster stronger motor in my teener but I guess I will have to wait until price is no object to get it. Which may be a while and you may be totally pissed at the 914 community by then.

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 28 2005, 05:40 PM)

I always thought Coke had some clove in it. J

i think clove flavor is used in dr. pepper, mr. pibb et al.

...great with popcorn!

Tried to stay on the popcorn, but can't resist.

IF the initial ball park estimate was "about $11K" with all the "bells and whistles" and the final price, including b&w's, was $19.5K, the deposit and core engine should be refunded.