Getting ready to paint, need advice Options

[swood]

I've got a '75 Palma Green Metallic that is almost ready for new paint. I'm in the process of sanding down and priming. My question is with this metallic paint, is it best to go with a two stage color then clear coat than a single stage? My understanding is that you can't color sand with the metallic fleck in it. But I don't know so that's why I'm askin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The attached photos are what I want the car to look like again.

[scotty b]

2 stage. Single stage just isn't worth the effort anymore IMO Especially on a car that is driven regularly. It is cheaper, it can look just as good if not better when done properly but the downsides are greater. More effort required to mantain the finish, metalics can not be wetsanded, more chip prone etc.I still use it on occassion, Mikes bus is single, the Fauxrrari I did last year is single but 9 out of 10 I do have 2 stage on them.

[kconway]

I had mine done recently in two stage metallic (Alaska Blue) and it came out great. You going to use water or solvent based? Used a two stage PPG DBA materiel, it's got the real fine fleck and is a european mix(?). Painter claimed it was real easy to shoot, no affiliation to paint supplier. If you don't know where to get the paint (solvent based) locally PM me, they can get the profit for any color.

Kev

[Mikey914]

2 stage all the way, just spend the money for the good clear (PPG).

How rare is the Palma metalic green anyhow?

[swood]

2 stage all the way, just spend the money for the good clear (PPG).

How rare is the Palma metalic green anyhow?

I'm not sure that is rare per se. I wonder how many came from the factory this color.

I'll definately try and source good color and clear. I'd rather do solvent based than water.

[r_towle]

Single stage has the clear coat mixed in with the color...so wet sanding is not always easy....depends on the paint.
With mettalic...never use single...you cannot wet sand at all.

With two stage..or three, the final layer is the clear, with not flakes in it.
You can wet sand that flat. Tell your painter to make sure he does not cheap out on the clear or you can sand through it...then you get to do it all over again.

Rich

[r_towle]

Hey Scotty....

What brand of single stage did you use on the RED car?
It looked awesome...even though it sucked for you.
That thing buffed out very nice...
I am switching to PPG for my next car...that store I went to uses Sikkens which did not perform well IMHO...

Rich

[rick 918-S]

Back in the day when you had a choice of lucite laquer, Duluxe synthetic enamal, or Centari Acrylic enamel we painted everything without clear. Laquer we would pile on sometimes 20 coats of product wet sanding after every half dozen coats. Tons of work but you could really product a beautiful finish. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/FERG.gif) Oh we had something like clear. It wasn't very clear even in the can and it yellowed in about a year.

Duluxe was like painting with rubber cement. Very sticky for many hours after the car was sprayed. This allowed the paint to flow out very flat with an average gloss. Very unrepairable and forget about buffing anything other that maybe a small dust spec. Then don't even think about it for at least 90 days. No clear coats just paint.

Centari was a production finish. No clear coats and no hardner when it was first released. Faster flash over that Duluxe. Dry to the touch in 3-4 hours but not hard under the flash off for 30 days. After 30 you could sand and buff but the shine was never the same as when sprayed out of the gun. I had a friend that owned a shop. He would run his Centari jobs through the car wash with the beater brushes so the new paint would match the old paint better. No clears until Centari 2000 which was a clear you added to the last few color coats if I remember right.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I used to have my paint store add balancer and binder to Centari mixing clear which was no more than a filler to give the paint volume. It was purple when you looked at it in a gallon can. I would add hardner to it and top coat metalic paint jobs and add pearl paste to it and spray it out over color coats for a custom finish. Compared to todays standards it sucked.

Fast forward through a whirlwind of revolutionary paint products that were cast upon the industry and marketed as the best thing since sliced bread. Some of them damn near put some shops out of business when they started to fail in volume. Anyone remember Cronar?

Well to end this painting history lesson... The best thing to come out of progress and time is the clear coat. I like two stage metalic colors but I am old school single stage when it comes to solids. Urethane sands and buffs the next days and achives a beautiful deep gloss. That's my 2 cents.

[scotty b]

Hey Scotty....

What brand of single stage did you use on the RED car?
It looked awesome...even though it sucked for you.
That thing buffed out very nice...
I am switching to PPG for my next car...that store I went to uses Sikkens which did not perform well IMHO...

Rich

Spies 257 series on the Fauxrrari. Spies on all the nice jobs. I really should get free material for all the pimping I do for them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Only other paints I would use on a really nice job would be Glasurit or Standox. Standox has been the Porsche factory paint since the late 90's IIRC It is the same as Spies to the point I can use Spies hardener and reducer with Standox bases and clears. Same parent company (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Same price (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Glasurit taint cheap either, but if there is ANY paint that may be better than Spies it would be Glasurit. I don like sikkens at all. Bad experience (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) I don't personally know of any high end painters that do use it. PPG is good though, I just don't know their product line. A somewhat cheaper and still good single stage would be DuPont's Centari.

[jmill]

Scotty and Rick are in the know. I can give you opinions of the DIY guy if your doing it yourself. If so you'll save money on materials with the single stage. Double the cost for 2 stage. IMHO 2 stage sprays a lot nicer. The base coat is idiot proof and the clear goes down like glass (I have only used PPG). Its been years since I shot single stage. It might be more forgiving now. I had lots of experience with the old Centari. It seemed to run and sag easy. If you laid it down thinner it had crazy orange peel (days before HVLP which didn't help). There was a fine line between orange peel and a sag. It took me quite a few cars to get the knack. Thats why the real painters made the big bucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Kargeek]

I painted my car 20 years ago with single stage paint w/ a hardener, color sanded it and it still looks outstanding today. Solid color finishes in single stage can have more depth.

However for metallic finishes 2 stage is best as it allow you to properly spray and fog in the metallic texture – then clear.

I’ve painted about a dozen cars and two 914’s. When you blow it apart and want to maintain perfect factory alignment with the doors and hoods, drill a strategically placed 1/16” hole in the hinges to realign again.

Also, with hoods and doors on the car, paint the outside first, then mask off the outer panels and shoot the jams and trunks. Saves overspray and masking.

DH

[swood]

Nice rainy so cal day...half the fam is gone the one remaining is doing homework...i'm gonna get something done...tired of looking at this shell.

Got a nice rhythm going and took down the all the clear (pain in the butt) and some color, but it feels real nice and smooth. just a few tiny spots of rust to ospho before i hit it with metal etch and a coat of primer. I'll hit it with some primer sealer then float out some tiny dents that i cant bang out. Overall, this thing is pretty straight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i121.photobucket.com-251-1287860803.1.jpg)


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i121.photobucket.com-251-1287860896.1.jpg)

[swood]

nice and smoooooth....

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i121.photobucket.com-251-1287877051.1.jpg)

[Cheapsnake]

nice and smoooooth....

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i121.photobucket.com-251-1287877051.1.jpg)

Hey Stevo, looking good. Yes, it does LOOK nice and smooth, but take a lesson from my experience and shoot and sand a guide coat. I just got done painting (repainting) my 914 and it looked just as smooth as your primer. I did the reflective light test and swore that I had all the dips and bumps out. That is, until I shot the color. That's when I found everything I missed. I had just shot a guide coat using $114/quart paint. For the price of a couple cans of Walmart's best $.98 spray paint I could have avoided a lot of expense and work.

HTH you avoid the same. Good luck on your shoot.

Tom

[KaptKaos]

Looking good!

When you going to shoot it? Let me know.

[swood]

Yep, got paint to shoot a guide coat. I'm just taking it slow (and that goes without saying). I'm just working through how to take the layers down without taking it all down to bare metal.

Joe, I'll let you know when i'm going to shoot it. Let's get caught up soon.

[swood]

As I do more sanding, i'm really loving this cars curves, talk about getting intimate with it. What I'm wondering is what would the average size block be for sanding the tight curves such as the tops of the front fenders? I have an air board for the larger flat panels, but getting the tighter curved areas even is surely an art in and of itself. I have a handful of those small foam sand blocks that i like to wrap a piece of sand paper around. They're about 2 1/2x 4" and 3"x5". I think i can get a nice groove going and sand the curves nicely but not sure. a guide coat would help. Just asking for some advice in advance.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

[rick 918-S]

As I do more sanding, i'm really loving this cars curves, talk about getting intimate with it. What I'm wondering is what would the average size block be for sanding the tight curves such as the tops of the front fenders? I have an air board for the larger flat panels, but getting the tighter curved areas even is surely an art in and of itself. I have a handful of those small foam sand blocks that i like to wrap a piece of sand paper around. They're about 2 1/2x 4" and 3"x5". I think i can get a nice groove going and sand the curves nicely but not sure. a guide coat would help. Just asking for some advice in advance.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

You shouldn't need the air board from the looks of that car. I would suggest you get a 12" or longer foam block. You can even use a foam rubber piece from the fabric supply stores. Something as stiff as memory foam. Take your time an really become one with the car.

[Cheapsnake]

As I do more sanding, i'm really loving this cars curves, talk about getting intimate with it. What I'm wondering is what would the average size block be for sanding the tight curves such as the tops of the front fenders? I have an air board for the larger flat panels, but getting the tighter curved areas even is surely an art in and of itself. I have a handful of those small foam sand blocks that i like to wrap a piece of sand paper around. They're about 2 1/2x 4" and 3"x5". I think i can get a nice groove going and sand the curves nicely but not sure. a guide coat would help. Just asking for some advice in advance.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

I've found that the best sanding blocks are the ones you cobble together from common materials. That way you have an infinite choice of sizes and flexes. For flat surfaces I used a 3x12" piece of pink insulation board, 3/4" thick. It seemed to have the perfect flex and it'll work on 90% of the body surfaces.

On concave surfaces, between the front fenders and hood I used a piece of 3" foam pipe insulation. You might want to insert a piece of PVC to stiffen it up a bit but I found that by leaving it hollow I could change its shape to fit a multiple of curves. I installed flares and this piece was very useful in shaping and finishing the transition to the body.

Always sand in an x motion with the sanding block's length perpendicular to the curve of the body.

You've got the the right mojo going there, slow and deliberate, because once you pull the trigger with the expensive stuff you don't want any regrets. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. Good luck.

Tom