Higher Ethanol (15%) BAD News for Pre-97 cars, Sign the Petition Options

[RickS]

A cross post from the land of the penguins. Read the top and find the petition link at the bottom of the first page of the thread. Scary stuff - Suby converterers might be in a good place.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...s-91-newer.html

Full text of that post:

Older engines (read "ours") may have serious problems. "May", could read "likely", but since I am not an expert. Read on and chime in on what we can do if needed:

Excerpted from the New York Times January 21, 2011:

WASHINGTON — The Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday that cars and light trucks from the 2001 model year onward can safely use a blend of 15 percent ethanol mixed with gasoline, up from the 10 percent standard now in effect in much of the country. The decision expands the pool of vehicles that could use such a fuel to about 62 percent of the total on the roads.

But the practical impact of the announcement on the fuel blend, known as E15, was not clear. An announcement in October that newer cars, from the 2007 model year and later, could use the blend has so far had little impact on retailers or drivers. A new fuel requires multiple approvals from many agencies. And retailers are typically not set up to offer an additional grade of gasoline at their pumps: if they wanted to sell E15, they would have to stop selling something else.

The ethanol industry is facing a problem selling its product because overall gasoline sales are down even while ethanol production is up. In addition, while many cars have been manufactured that can run on an 85 percent ethanol blend, known as E85, very few gasoline retailers outside the Midwest actually sell the fuel. Auto makers had expressed concern that the E15 blend could harm cars’ seals, pumps and other fuel system components.

But on Friday, Lisa P. Jackson, the E.P.A. administrator, said the agency’s testing had found otherwise. “Recently completed testing and data analysis show that E15 does not harm emissions control equipment in newer cars and light trucks,” she said in a statement. “Wherever sound science and the law support steps to allow more home-grown fuels in America’s vehicles, this administration takes those steps.”

The ethanol industry cheered the announcement.

Growth Energy, a trade group that had petitioned the E.P.A. in 2009 to raise the standard blend to 15 percent ethanol from 10 percent, said that if accomplished, the change “could help create as many as 136,000 new jobs in the United States.”

Encouraging the use of corn-based ethanol is one of the few federal auto policies that has had a substantial impact on reducing oil imports.

The government is still studying the ability of older cars to withstand a 15 percent ethanol blend. The E.P.A. has not said when it expects to announce a ruling on older vehicles. Some gasoline-powered equipment, like marine outboard motors, chain saws and leaf blowers, is never expected to qualify, and E15 in those engines would create safety hazards, the equipment makers say.

Full text: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/business...anol&st=cse

I understand cars with carbs may have additional difficulties

[Krieger]

Morons. Lets see... higher fuel cost, less mileage (double whammy more expensive to go a shorter distance) and higher food costs. We lose.

[realred914]

A cross post from the land of the penguins. Read the top and find the petition link at the bottom of the first page of the thread. Scary stuff - Suby converterers might be in a good place.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...s-91-newer.html

All thanks to wacked out enviro nuts, and sustainable growth overlords, that think you should be forced out of your car or forced to buy a new Socialist Government Motors car are behind this. dont forget the big corn farmer lobby either, that have bought the politicians.

time to vote these rascals out of office for forcing this crap on us.

so many politicains hate your car hobby, they treat us like serfs, or worse, and have totaly disregard to your pursuit of happieness. (one of our God given rights)

besure to study the stance your representative has on these issues, and if they fail the test, vote them out, and donate heavily to their opponents. there is a growing group of political elites that are waging war on us car hobbists, they want to dictate every aspect of your life. fight them at the ballot box.

Only you can prevent these types of insane laws

[smontanaro]

All thanks to wacked out enviro nuts, and sustainable growth overlords...

I suspect it has mostly to do with a strong farm lobby.

S

[smontanaro]

Lets see... higher fuel cost, less mileage ... and higher food costs.

You forgot more pollution.

S

[BMXerror]

On their map of ethanol free stations, how do you like the big void within California? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Mark D.

[914Sixer]

Go to the Dollar stores, they have octane booster for $1. I run it in all my stuff. I get 1-2 mpg better using the stuff and no valve clatter pulling loads.

[Cevan]

All thanks to wacked out enviro nuts, and sustainable growth overlords...

I suspect it has mostly to do with a strong farm lobby.

S

It has everything to do with the farm lobby.

[MBowman325]

Go to the Dollar stores, they have octane booster for $1.

That reminds me - while reading the manaul for the Magnum, it says to stay away from octane boosters due to "high concentrations of methanol".

It also says to not kill yourself too... There are some interesting things in there....

[MBowman325]

Just read the post (though not the full text)

So, they've over-produced and need a way to offload more ethanol. I say that aware of the fact that it's a major run-up to get policy changed to push the E-15 stuff.

The EPA tells automakers that despite their caution on older cars having issues with pumps, hoses and seals, testing has shown that the emissions control items will be fine. A moot point if the car does run. Also, there's the fact that all you're doing is offloading the sources of the emissions to other points in the processing of the ethanol. And there's the potential for reduced economy in vehicles that are not tuned to use this. (I know turbo guys get pretty happy about E85 though).

There's also the fact that running higher blends of ethanol is listed as dangerous in some engines (mostly 2-stroke), which makes me wonder why it won't scale down if they're also including 4 stroke small engines.

It's a positive sign of the power of lobbying. Perhaps we need to get a national classic car owners group established to lobby against these changes?

That's as political as I'll get here.

[Gint]

If you're going to cross post your own post on another forum, then cross post the full text and don't make us have to go tot he other forum. I've added the full text from the pelican forum thread post to your first post in this thread.

If you guys can't keep your political comments out of this thread, it will be closed. And I'd prefer that it remained open.

[SLITS]

I signed the petition ..... not that the Goobermint will listen to their constituents anyway.

[anderssj]

I signed the petition and forwarded to some other gear-heads, boaters, and airplane builders in the neighborhood.

I just received a couple of rebuild kits for my Dells--I think the current gasoline mix (10% ethanol) ate the pump diaphragms, and various seals and o-rings. Probably be rebuilding them this weekend.

Pretty amazing about all of the unintended consequences associated with ethanol. I read where it's even jacking up the cost of tequila (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Seems that ethanol production has raised the price of corn, so many growers are plowing under agave and replanting with corn for a quicker ROI. Less agave will mean higher tequila prices and/or lower quality--maybe both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[underthetire]

Just playing the devils advocate here, but everyone is always chiming in, Buy American! Well, that will be 15% less oil we buy from the middle east, right? Guess that just pushes me one step closer to do the Ecotek motor swap.

[Root_Werks]

I had a pretty good portion of my 914 thread devoted to this subject. E15 was producing some nasty gummy stuff in the carbs within just a few days. I would have to pop the carb tops off almost weekly.

Stable really helped a lot, pretty much kept them clean.

Sitting fuel exposed to O2 is what causes the "gummy" to happen. It looked like a brown-ish hair gel?

It made me convert back to FI (L-Jet on a GC 2.0).

Yesterday I fired up the 914 for the first time in 9 weeks. Ran perfect, never missed a beat and I haven't used any fuel additives since going back to FI.

I think the key is the system is sealed and under pressure.

That's my experience with E15. It's reaking havoc on my 2275 T-3 Squareback with dual carbs.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)
I totally forgot about the stabil thing, so this mornings tank had some of that dropped in. Hopefully it clears up the sludge.

[nsyr]

I had a car that got 19mpg on regular and 16mpg with ethanol 10%. The car had a 20 gallon tank.

19mpg * 20gallons (20g gasoline) = 380miles
16mpg * 20gallons (18g gasoline + 2g ethanol) = 320miles

to travel 380 miles with ethanol blend = 23.75 gallons
23.75gallons - 10% ethanol = 21.375g gasoline

Stupidity at it's finest.

[yeahmag]

Run Stabil, raise your compression a bit (optional), and fatten up your jetting a touch. Done.

[realred914]

If you're going to cross post your own post on another forum, then cross post the full text and don't make us have to go tot he other forum. I've added the full text from the pelican forum thread post to your first post in this thread.

If you guys can't keep your political comments out of this thread, it will be closed. And I'd prefer that it remained open.

if the politics stayed out of our gas tank, maybe we wouldn't have to mention it here on this car hobby site.

Only thru our action in politics can we fight the politicans that are aginst our car hobby.

From your statement, it appears some admins are anti-collector car or some how beholden to the politicans that what to ruin our car hobby. That is really un-American, shame shame on you.

The whole purpose of this thread is stopping politics from getting in our gas tanks, and ruining our cars.

[zymurgist]

Why does it always have to be about name calling?

Yes, we should have a petition.
Yes, we should point out that there are politicians who don't like our choice of hobbies.
Yes, we should use a petition to redress our grievances.

But do we have to take potshots at the folks who run this board? It's not like the admins of this site are the ones who control the process of what fuels are sold in this country.

[Rav914]

Good info. What's important is what this ethanol does to the seals and gaskets and how to minimize the damage - Stabil (or is it Stable?).