Pulling heads & cylinders from a VW Vanagon, ...can it be done without pulling the engine? |
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Pulling heads & cylinders from a VW Vanagon, ...can it be done without pulling the engine? |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 06:46 AM
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
Anyone who reads this and knows who it's from knows that I am in a time crunch. I will be with me new van in two days time, so will know more then, and could possibly answer this question myself...
anyway... I see pics of the heads being removed from a 70's vw van while the engine is in the van here: http://benplace.com/heads.htm So, my question is, is this also possible on a vanagon with the updated design... mine is a 1980. Finally, is there any reason I can't go further and remove the cylinders as well from there? Ultimately, I am thinking this is far quicker than my newbie self removing the engine, without all the tools at hand without having to build them or buy them (I'm $ crunched too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)) Thanks for any thoughts... this has been a great active forum! |
type47 |
Oct 3 2011, 07:25 AM
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#2
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Viermeister Group: Members Posts: 4,254 Joined: 7-August 03 From: Vienna, VA Member No.: 994 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
What do you suspect is wrong with the engine? I would say, if you're in a time and $ crunch as you state, that you don't go any deeper into the engine than you have to to get it back home. I would think it would be bad to break the seal between the cylinder and block (and maybe get the rings out of the cylinder) only to find out you don't have enough clearance to remove the cylinder.
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nathansnathan |
Oct 3 2011, 08:11 AM
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#3
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 31-May 10 From: Laguna Beach, CA Member No.: 11,782 Region Association: None |
Up to '83, the engine is the air-cooled, just the top breather is cast into the case is the difference in the blocks. I'm not sure how it is with the van body as far as access; I've got a 72 bus with the type 4.
In my experience, though it may seem easier, every little thing will be so much harder with the engine in the van. Putting it back together especially. It ends up taking longer when you drop the engine because you can do it right, cleaning it all up, etc. Succumb to the urge to split the case though and it may not be back together for years! |
aircooledtechguy |
Oct 3 2011, 08:31 AM
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#4
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The Aircooledtech Guy Group: Members Posts: 1,966 Joined: 8-November 08 From: Anacortes, WA Member No.: 9,730 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
While it *can* be done with the motor installed, it is a total PITA and will take you MUCH longer to do that way. PULL THE MOTOR and do it right. With the motor installed it's also going to complicate installing the PR tubes and such and you will be inviting leaks.
I have a lift and I wouldn't even consider pulling the heads without pulling the whole motor. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 01:31 PM
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
While it *can* be done with the motor installed, it is a total PITA and will take you MUCH longer to do that way. PULL THE MOTOR and do it right. With the motor installed it's also going to complicate installing the PR tubes and such and you will be inviting leaks. I have a lift and I wouldn't even consider pulling the heads without pulling the whole motor. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Ok, so pulling is the best and quickest... got it. How would anyone recommend doing this without a lift. I see I can drop it with a good floor jack, yes? I guess that is my answer, eh? |
Cap'n Krusty |
Oct 3 2011, 01:56 PM
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#6
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
A floor jack will work fine. You say you're short on time. Be forewarned that any work on these engines involving pulling the heads usually means you're opening up a can o' worms. That means considerable downtime. They can only rarely be rebuilt, and the new heads available come with junk valves. BTW, there are a lot of shops, including mine, that won't even touch these engines at anything less than what you might consider an outrageous fee. That's because we've learned our lesson. Too many warranty claims. I just quoted a guy $10K for a motor. Unfortunately, that didn't scare him away. Guess I'm gonna have to up the quotes!
The Cap'n |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 02:02 PM
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
A floor jack will work fine. You say you're short on time. Be forewarned that any work on these engines involving pulling the heads usually means you're opening up a can o' worms. That means considerable downtime. They can only rarely be rebuilt, and the new heads available come with junk valves. BTW, there are a lot of shops, including mine, that won't even touch these engines at anything less than what you might consider an outrageous fee. That's because we've learned our lesson. Too many warranty claims. I just quoted a guy $10K for a motor. Unfortunately, that didn't scare him away. Guess I'm gonna have to up the quotes! The Cap'n Thanks for your forewarning... hopefully the Gods are with me on this one... we'll just see, eh? This is a rebuilt engine with 30k on it. What can of worms issues might I fall prey to? thanx cap'n |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 02:11 PM
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
ok, here's a question...
The issue is: big loss of power. 1st gear fine, 2nd bogs BIG time. Pedal to the floor, no power. 1st-I'll do a compression test 2nd-leakdown test say, I find the leak in the rings (hear the hiss there not around the heads), I pull the heads in place, take out the cylinder sounding rough (if it's just one), and if I get in a pickle I can pull it from there, yes? But, let's say I get lucky... get everything out and only have to crack one or two cylinders... get it back in... and pray with gratitude for my lucky stars! I'm just thinking I can go one stage at a time and not start with a pull. I hear what everyone is saying, but wonder why it would make a dif when I pull 'er? Set me straight if I'm wrong, please (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
TheCabinetmaker |
Oct 3 2011, 02:17 PM
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#9
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I drive my car everyday Group: Members Posts: 8,301 Joined: 8-May 03 From: Tulsa, Ok. Member No.: 666 |
Hmm, You say 1st gear is fine and 2nd bogs? sounds suspiciously like its in 4th and not 2nd. There is no reason I can "think" of that would make it bog in one gear and not another.
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nathansnathan |
Oct 3 2011, 02:19 PM
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#10
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 31-May 10 From: Laguna Beach, CA Member No.: 11,782 Region Association: None |
You are wrong.
The time it will take you to take the rear tin out while it is in, you can have thing on the ground. That is just the start of your time savings. Any little thing you can do when it's out will save you time over doing it after it goes back in. Ideally you want the back of the van on some tall stands so you can get it out, and in, in 1 piece. |
r_towle |
Oct 3 2011, 02:33 PM
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#11
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,584 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States |
ok, here's a question... The issue is: big loss of power. 1st gear fine, 2nd bogs BIG time. Pedal to the floor, no power. 1st-I'll do a compression test 2nd-leakdown test say, I find the leak in the rings (hear the hiss there not around the heads), I pull the heads in place, take out the cylinder sounding rough (if it's just one), and if I get in a pickle I can pull it from there, yes? But, let's say I get lucky... get everything out and only have to crack one or two cylinders... get it back in... and pray with gratitude for my lucky stars! I'm just thinking I can go one stage at a time and not start with a pull. I hear what everyone is saying, but wonder why it would make a dif when I pull 'er? Set me straight if I'm wrong, please (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Look for the basics. Fuel filter and pump. Ignition, valve clearances and all your plugs. replace all the plugs, points , rotor and cap. replace the air filter. See if your shifter bushings are all ok...bring a whole set with you. e-brake...make sure its free and not sticking. Rich |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 02:58 PM
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
Really great advice everyone... I REALLY appreciate it. OK Nathansnathan... I gotchya... good advice.
& yes, maybe it's just a spent fuel filter or stuck e-brake! Wouldn't that be awesome! |
r_towle |
Oct 3 2011, 03:10 PM
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#13
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,584 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States |
1st gear on a vanagon will move alot of weight...2nd wont.
4th is even worse...lol You can drag an ebrake in first on a bus...its a really low gear. Rich |
Cap'n Krusty |
Oct 3 2011, 03:53 PM
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#14
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
Look at #3 before you do anything. Do a compression test. These things like to drop valve seats and drop valves. They also erode the edge of the piston, right down to the top ring groove, and I think you're gonna find the top end is toast. I don't think you can remove that wrist pin with the #4 piston and cylinder in place. Personally, I think you're just being stubborn. There's no way I'd even attempt this in the car, and I've been working on T2s and Vanagons since 1973. Never crossed my mind to do it in the car .....................
The Cap'n, |
wingnut86 |
Oct 3 2011, 05:05 PM
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#15
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...boola la boo boola boo... Group: Members Posts: 1,053 Joined: 22-April 10 From: South Carolina Member No.: 11,645 Region Association: South East States |
Cap'n, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't he make it a bit easier with the rear wheels backed up on metal ramps ($39.95 at KMart)?
Thinking of making it easier with the shafts, etc. Jack stands and heavy rubber or 4X4 wheel chocks for the front wheels would still be required. Set the ass high for doggy-style, so to speak (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) |
Cap'n Krusty |
Oct 3 2011, 05:20 PM
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#16
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
Cap'n, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't he make it a bit easier with the rear wheels backed up on metal ramps ($39.95 at KMart)? Thinking of making it easier with the shafts, etc. Jack stands and heavy rubber or 4X4 wheel chocks for the front wheels would still be required. Set the ass high for doggy-style, so to speak (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) Well, ya gotta drop the exhaust, remove the top tin (which is surrounded by the body and a hard plastic seal), remove the intake runners, and remove the fan housing (assuming you have to get the wrist pins out). I don't see how jacking it way up would make it any easier. You have to do that anyway to get the engine/tranny out. The Cap'n |
vwsamba |
Oct 3 2011, 09:35 PM
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#17
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 20-November 10 From: Malibu, CA Member No.: 12,407 Region Association: None |
I had to laugh at your comment, these engines are an absolute nightmare (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)
Be forewarned that any work on these engines involving pulling the heads usually means you're opening up a can o' worms. BTW, there are a lot of shops, including mine, that won't even touch these engines at anything less than what you might consider an outrageous fee. That's because we've learned our lesson. Too many warranty claims. I just quoted a guy $10K for a motor. Unfortunately, that didn't scare him away. Guess I'm gonna have to up the quotes! The Cap'n (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 09:52 PM
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
Ok, I'm getting the picture guys. Thanks.
I also recalled this evening that the reason I think it's the rings or the valves is cause there is oil on the plugs. Thus I'm linking the low power to blowby, not fuel... but boy will I be stoked if it's a fuel filter! LOL |
Radmacdaddy |
Oct 3 2011, 09:55 PM
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
Look at #3 before you do anything. Do a compression test. These things like to drop valve seats and drop valves. They also erode the edge of the piston, right down to the top ring groove, and I think you're gonna find the top end is toast. I don't think you can remove that wrist pin with the #4 piston and cylinder in place. Personally, I think you're just being stubborn. There's no way I'd even attempt this in the car, and I've been working on T2s and Vanagons since 1973. Never crossed my mind to do it in the car ..................... The Cap'n, would a rebuild with 30k erode a head like that? I'm not being stubborn Cap'n, just being sure that's what's ahead of me, and appreciate your advice fer sure. well, ok... I have known to be stubborn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Thanks! |
jcd914 |
Oct 3 2011, 10:45 PM
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#20
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,081 Joined: 7-February 08 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 8,684 Region Association: Northern California |
would a rebuild with 30k erode a head like that? Probably not if the rebuild was done right but if it was done right you would not be having a problem with it. I had a customer with 1.7 engine that was a "fresh rebuild" as in 100 miles that smoked so bad he came to us wanting it rebuild his "new" engine. When I got the engine apart I could slide one of the valve guides up and down the valve stem with a screwdriver thru the intake port. After seeing that the customer opted to buy a new engine rather than trust anything done by the previous shop. Always start with the basics and verify very thing before you dive in deep. Jim |
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