Power from a 914 aircooled, Questions about potential Options

[Mwood]

Hey, Im new to forums, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

I have been looking to start a project car since relocating to the bay area forced me to abandon my previous one. i really want to work on some kind of 914 autox/road car/rod project but I am not sure of a few things and wondered if you guys could help me clear this up a bit.

I love the looks of the 914, especially ones with the sheridan fiberglass. I love the lines,
Size, style, simplicity of the cars. I am also very interested in air cooled engines because i appreciate simple, basic mechanicals and i like the simplicity of carbs and im still pretty green with engine work and complex car mechanics. And something about putting a big american v8 in a car like this irks me a little. Seems a little ham fisted.

Is it feasible to get around 250-300 torque/hp from a built aircooled 914 engine with something like dual webers and internal mods? Is that overly excessive for a 914 street/mild track car? I dont really want to spend over 2 to 3 grand modifying the engine. I have read that 1.7L 914 engines accept upgrades better but i feel like the displacement would need to be increased to get that much power. Mechanically i believe i am capable of bolting an engine together (i rebuilt my previous nissan KA engine a couple times) but details like internal engine upgrade specifications and the power gains they yield are foreign to me.

My idea is to do some kind of tuned car with 911 suspension and running gear/ built carbed aircooled, seriously lightened interior and maybe a fiberglass widebody if i get that extreme.

Please give me some feedback!
Thanks!

[SirAndy]

Is it feasible to get around 250-300 torque/hp from a built aircooled 914 engine with something like dual webers and internal mods? I dont really want to spend over 2 to 3 grand modifying the engine.

No ...

With that budget, you'll be better off to get an Amurican V8 and stuff it in there.


Any aircooled T4 engine that makes that much power/torque will cost you much, much, much more. Even with a turbo or compressor.
And it won't last long.

The only "off the shelf" aircooled Porsche engine that comes close to those numbers is a 3.6L /6 and that one will cost you $10k+ to install in a 914.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[Mwood]

I guess that isnt surprising given the little i know about built engines. Any idea what kind of performance is attainable with a few grand into an aircooled engine? (I would think bigger cylinders/cam/lifters/crank/lightened flywheel/webers/headers etc.) ... and any driveability ideas as well because i have very limited experience with what kind of effect these kinds of horsepower have on a car the size of a 914. I do know that 250 hp/tq was more than enough in most cases for my previous car, a datsun 510 coupe. I never got my ka swap done so i dont know personally.

Also any ideas on the best way to go about test driving a 914 would be helpful lol i just bought the 510 project blind i had never driven one

[r_towle]

for your budget, you will be tight to build a stock motor let alone a race motor.

150-180 HP can be done, and has been many times, but its not done for 2-3k.

How much are you willing to spend on the car?
You may find a car that has already been built for your goals and you can take it from there...most cars can easily remove 2-3k from your wallet with ease.

You do need to drive one because 250HP is almost to much for the chassis...the car weighs 2000 lbs wet.
150 HP will beat most cars if there is a good driver behind the wheel.
Depends on what you are doing...autox or racing...and class etc.

Otherwise you can put in a subaru motor, a chevy, or a large 6 cylinder porsche motor and scare yourself silly.

Carefull of what you decide if racing is the primary goal.
Racing bodies, the class you want to race in, what is local enough for you to attend....all of that will come into play for your choice of motor...

If you end up building a great car but have no official class to race in, you may be sorry.

Rich

[tscrihfield]

for your budget, you will be tight to build a stock motor let alone a race motor.

150-180 HP can be done, and has been many times, but its not done for 2-3k.

How much are you willing to spend on the car?
You may find a car that has already been built for your goals and you can take it from there...most cars can easily remove 2-3k from your wallet with ease.

You do need to drive one because 250HP is almost to much for the chassis...the car weighs 2000 lbs wet.
150 HP will beat most cars if there is a good driver behind the wheel.
Depends on what you are doing...autox or racing...and class etc.

Otherwise you can put in a subaru motor, a chevy, or a large 6 cylinder porsche motor and scare yourself silly.

Carefull of what you decide if racing is the primary goal.
Racing bodies, the class you want to race in, what is local enough for you to attend....all of that will come into play for your choice of motor...

If you end up building a great car but have no official class to race in, you may be sorry.

Rich

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

mwood,
Everything you listed above cylinders/pistons, cam, lifters, flywheel, crank and so forth you are already over 3k IMHO. That's not even talking assembly parts. Heads rebuilt will cost you 500 on the cheap and that's not even high performers.

I think that you would be surprised to find that 120hp in these little cars move them quite well. I'd say get ahold of a driver and do a moderate build on an already drive able car. Then while your getting to know the car build a hotter engine and take your time.

Thomas

[Mike Bellis]

You could add a 500 shot of Nitrus. That will give you the HP you are looking for...


For about 15 seconds... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif)

I'm doing an Audi/VW 1.8t swap. 300+hp. All the work done by myself. I am $4000+ into it and it's not done. I bought a complete VW Passat for $1k to start. By far the cheapest way to start a conversion is with a donor car.

Any water cooled (V8, Audi, Subaru) will run ~$5000+ for everything if you do all the work yourself. 300hp/300tq is a blast in a 914! But... A lot of upgrading of various parts is required. Maybe not all at once but you will find each broken part at the most inopportune time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

There are a ton of resources on this site. There is a Buick V8 conversion kit in the classifieds. That would give you close to 300hp/tq if done right. The Buick motor is all aluminum too.

It is way cheaper to buy a finished conversion car than it is to build one. It is a labor of love... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

If you want to build a 914 T4 to that HP level you will be $15,000 plus into it...

[damesandhotrods]

I’ll give you the other side of the coin. With a worn 95 horse 2.0 I can still do 10 to 20 over any posted speed limit I come across. If I was honest, the best way for me to get more out of my 2 litre is a couple of DE days.

[jdlmodelt]

What minor mods on the cheap could I do to the 1.7l to get more HP?

What minor mods on the cheap could I do to the 2.0l to get more HP?
thanks,
J

[somd914]

One nice thing about the 914 - you can wind up through several gears in the twisties or stop light to stop light, have a ball doing it and listening to it, but not draw much attention.

I also have a fast car, but it doesn't handle like my 914. Big fast engines in the back also change handling, but it depends what you are looking for.

Concur that $2k-$3k pays for parts for a basic rebuild and maybe some nice things like 96mm pistons/cylinders, but it won't be the shot in the arm you are looking for.

[Mike Bellis]

What minor mods on the cheap could I do to the 1.7l to get more HP?

What minor mods on the cheap could I do to the 2.0l to get more HP?
thanks,
J

Invest is a good header/exhaust system. Most bang for the buck!

[ConeDodger]

You could spend $2K just on a good exhaust...

[jdlmodelt]

You could spend $2K just on a good exhaust...

And for the dollars probably not gain much from it I suspect.

So, adding some displacement thru larger jugs/pistons....what are my none machining options for the 1.7l and what do I gain from it if I keep it fuel injected?

[VaccaRabite]

You could spend $2K just on a good exhaust...

And for the dollars probably not gain much from it I suspect.

So, adding some displacement thru larger jugs/pistons....what are my none machining options for the 1.7l and what do I gain from it if I keep it fuel injected?

for 3K, you could build a 1911cc engine and use the stock FI. So long as you did everything right, got a few good deals, and your heads are not toast.

You would end up with a fastish revving engine with a nice torque curve and ~110 HP.

By keeping FI, you don't have to deal with carbs. Carbs, when running well, are great. They allow you to use higher compression, and more power. When running wrong they will drive you to drink.

Any engine you build will require machine work. Any engine. Not just T4. Bearings need to be fitted. rotating mass balanced. parts cleaned and polished. Heads rebuilt.

For big power kinds cheap, go buy a wrecked V8. An LT or LS motor in a 914 is scary.

Just remember, big power needs big rubber and big brakes and chassis reenforcement and and and and.... you get the idea.

Zach

[jdlmodelt]

You could spend $2K just on a good exhaust...

And for the dollars probably not gain much from it I suspect.

So, adding some displacement thru larger jugs/pistons....what are my none machining options for the 1.7l and what do I gain from it if I keep it fuel injected?

for 3K, you could build a 1911cc engine and use the stock FI. So long as you did everything right, got a few good deals, and your heads are not toast.

You would end up with a fastish revving engine with a nice torque curve and ~110 HP.

By keeping FI, you don't have to deal with carbs. Carbs, when running well, are great. They allow you to use higher compression, and more power. When running wrong they will drive you to drink.

Any engine you build will require machine work. Any engine. Not just T4. Bearings need to be fitted. rotating mass balanced. parts cleaned and polished. Heads rebuilt.

For big power kinds cheap, go buy a wrecked V8. An LT or LS motor in a 914 is scary.

Just remember, big power needs big rubber and big brakes and chassis reenforcement and and and and.... you get the idea.

Zach

I'm not looking for big power. I have a 76FI 2.0l in my restored 72 right now but plan to restore the 76 chassis with my son at which point I hope to rebuild the 72 1.7l engine to put back in the 72 and put the 76 engine back in the 76 but I'd like to make minor low cost improvements on the 1.7l if that is even possible to bump the HP/torque up ever so slightly to match the stock HP/Torque of the 2.0l 76?

[JamesM]

I'm not looking for big power. I have a 76FI 2.0l in my restored 72 right now but plan to restore the 76 chassis with my son at which point I hope to rebuild the 72 1.7l engine to put back in the 72 and put the 76 engine back in the 76 but I'd like to make minor low cost improvements on the 1.7l if that is even possible to bump the HP/torque up ever so slightly to match the stock HP/Torque of the 2.0l 76?

Stock 72 1.7 is already pretty close to a stock 76 2.0 provided you are still running the 76 exhaust and emissions crap. 96mm pistions and a good cam in the 1.7 should beat a stock 76 2L.

[Randal]

The only way to get 250ft lbs of torque is to go with a 3.6, as Andy rightfully suggested. The engine will be 10K, the transmission additional and installation additional. But do it and you'll have a killer car. And it will be all Porsche and air cooled. But remember that 300hp in a 914 will require you to change most of the suspension and brakes as the stock set up will just not handle the additional power safely.

Lots of guys put Subi's in 914's and those motors can be modified to put out just about whatever you want, but bring money. I personally like the Subi conversions as they don't mess up the handling as other conversions that put additional weight up high.

Or you can build a hot 4 and have a very fast car, but again you need a reasonable budget. 4's can be build to put out over 200hp and close to that in torque, but not cheaply.

If your interested in putting together a great running 4 then talk to McMark on this site. If you want to put it together yourself he'd probably help you to source the parts and make sure you ended up with something that matches your objective.

And if you want to race.....well that is an entirely new subject. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[jdlmodelt]

I'm not looking for big power. I have a 76FI 2.0l in my restored 72 right now but plan to restore the 76 chassis with my son at which point I hope to rebuild the 72 1.7l engine to put back in the 72 and put the 76 engine back in the 76 but I'd like to make minor low cost improvements on the 1.7l if that is even possible to bump the HP/torque up ever so slightly to match the stock HP/Torque of the 2.0l 76?

Stock 72 1.7 is already pretty close to a stock 76 2.0 provided you are still running the 76 exhaust and emissions crap. 96mm pistions and a good cam in the 1.7 should beat a stock 76 2L.

with the 96mm pistons and a modified cam will I still keep the same stroke as the 1.7 stock? Will the 1.7l case require boring at the cylinder sleeves to fit the 96mm?
thanks,
J

[ChrisFoley]

You could spend $2K just on a good exhaust...

And for the dollars probably not gain much from it I suspect.
...

About 10hp on a stock engine.
The same exhaust is essential to a larger displacement engine or it won't make the desired power either.
Any oversize type four running through the stock HE system is leaving a lot of hp on the table.

[ChrisFoley]

with the 96mm pistons and a modified cam will I still keep the same stroke as the 1.7 stock? Will the 1.7l case require boring at the cylinder sleeves to fit the 96mm?
thanks,
J

stock stroke will give you 1911cc. NO case mods required.

[J P Stein]

Sure, piece of cake........but bring your time, big money ,& effort. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB0fTcTHkg4...ayer_detailpage