Barbecued Pertronix and No Start, God laughs at me alot Options

[Brian Mifsud]

Poured in the 3 gallons of premium, hooked up the brand spanking new Die Hard and hit the switch for the first time in 6 years... annoying seat belt buzzer seems to work very well...........


So I hear the fuel pump fire off (good)

Starter Solenoid goes click.................

Try again.............click

turn off ignition and climb out (I COULDN't have wired the starter wrong.. .there's only 2 connections) me says..

Then the wonderful smell of burning bakelite..........

I quickly disconnect positive terminal to battery and bust open the distributor.

I conclude that I roasted my Pertronix having wired it wrong when I had to remove and replace the coil (although my red wire went to positive post on coil, and black wire to negative so what gives???)

Mind you, this was a perfectly running Mike Mueller engine with a perfectly running Pertronix Ignition.. I had to go and mess it up by taking things apart to clean them all up. Last time I used it, the starter was dandy with no problems.


Would I be lucky enough that this has happened to you.. and the only reason the engine DIDN't turn over was lack of voltage 'cause that greedy Pertronix was wired wrong and sucking up all the AMPS??

In other words, is it likely I have MORE than one item wired wrong??

New ignition on the way, but I'm not using it as a fuse agin.... see, this Idiot can learn things..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[redshift]

Buzzer?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

74?


M

[Brian Mifsud]

'76..... at least THAT works....

[Demick]

QUOTE (Brian Mifsud @ Aug 10 2005, 10:51 PM)

this was a perfectly running Mike Mueller engine

We all know there is no such thing. So either it is April 1st, or someone has played a trick on you. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE

I had to go and mess it up by taking things apart to clean them all up.

But apparantly, Mike's spirit is alive and well in that engine. It forced you into taking apart a perfectly running engine and turning it into a non-running one!

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Highly unlikely that the pertronix could have caused the starter not to work. Likely that it is the starter itself (sitting for 6 years), or a ground connection.

[rhodyguy]

was it a brand new pertronix? i'm familiar with the coil resistance issue and compufires. same thing for the p?

k

[Brian Mifsud]

Well, new pertronix and blue coil (while I'm in there) are on the way. Pelican's price was better than Summit (did a search and a past thread had said reverse was true??).

It struck me sometime last night that I recall having to disconnect 2 black wires (not connected to Pertronix) from the coil to the main harness briefly while routing all the new hoses. I could have easily reversed polarity on these wires which I had broken my usual rule and NOT labeled before I disconnected.

I'll pull out the wiring diagrams this time tonight and trace them down to see what they are and where they go.

My transaxle to body ground strap stud was very very grungy with baked on oil and goo. I was in a rush so didn't clean it up (the abatement officer is still breathing down my neck to get the car registered). I polish that up also for what it's worth.

[bd1308]

QUOTE (Brian Mifsud @ Aug 11 2005, 10:17 AM)

Well, new pertronix and blue coil (while I'm in there) are on the way. Pelican's price was better than Summit (did a search and a past thread had said reverse was true??). It struck me sometime last night that I recall having to disconnect 2 black wires (not connected to Pertronix) from the coil to the main harness briefly while routing all the new hoses. I could have easily reversed polarity on these wires which I had broken my usual rule and NOT labeled before I disconnected. I'll pull out the wiring diagrams this time tonight and trace them down to see what they are and where they go. My transaxle to body ground strap stud was very very grungy with baked on oil and goo. I was in a rush so didn't clean it up (the abatement officer is still breathing down my neck to get the car registered). I polish that up also for what it's worth.

bingo!


that did it.

the big black wire is + and shoudl go to the + side of the coil.

the thin black wire is actually black with a purple stripe...that goes to your tach-- on the - side of the coil..

switched them and it fried your p-unit.

[Brian Mifsud]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

dough!


Note to self... you know when that little tiny voice inside says "whooops" while assembling stuff and the big "Brian" voice disregards him...??????


well LISTEN TO HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks

[Rouser]

This thread will probably add one notch to the "Pertronix Sux" arguement. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) Let me explain ...

The Ignitor module SHOULD have been intelligent enough to automatically sense that you were accidentally wiring it backwards, and therefore set off your horn, preventing its demise. That capability (I'm sure) is coming in version 3.0. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Roasting one happens; we won't hold it against you. I was just doing a little rant, that's all. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Rouser @ Aug 11 2005, 02:25 PM)

This thread will probably add one notch to the "Pertronix Sux" arguement. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) Let me explain ... The Ignitor module SHOULD have been intelligent enough to automatically sense that you were accidentally wiring it backwards, and therefore set off your horn, preventing its demise. That capability (I'm sure) is coming in version 3.0. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) Roasting one happens; we won't hold it against you. I was just doing a little rant, that's all. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

I wouldn't count on that. Mallory Unilite modules will also smoke if you wire them up backwards. I'm not certain, but Crane modules probably won't, but that's part of what you get when you have lots of room in an external module. The Pertronix is sufficiently small that there's just not much room for the componentry to safely shunt reverse polarity power.

It doesn't help at all that VW and Porsche (and perhaps other Germans, I have no idea) insist on using BLACK as the power wire color, when everyone else uses that as ground, so there are two black wires at the coil on any electronic ignition install, and they go to opposite posts on the coil.

Another easy excuse is that points will work if the coil is hooked up backwards (black to - and green to +), but you'll smoke a Pertronix or Unilite very quickly if you hook red to + and black to - on a coil that has been wired up this way by a DAPO. So, disconnect all of the coil wires when installing one of these items, and hook it all up correctly:

black wire from relay board to coil +
red wire from pertronix/mallory/et al to coil +
black wire from pertronix/mallory/etc to coil -
black/purple wire from relay board to coil -

[Rouser]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 11 2005, 06:38 PM)

I wouldn't count on that.

I don't either, henseforth the > (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) .

[Brian Mifsud]

Update:

Installed new Pertronix, this time understanding that the black and purple wire (smaller diameter) goes to negative pole of coil, fat solid black wire to positive (thanks fellas for that clarification). BTW, I had a Pertronix in my Last 914 Engine and never had a problem with it over 3 years of driving. While I was in there, I put in a new blue coil.

Starter going "click" ended up not being grounding, nor miswiring. AutoZone confirmed starter was fine, no problem with solenoid or motor at all. After scanning this site, I went off to Pelican. One of Dave Darling's posts gave me the missing clue... I was missing the primary cable from Positive Post of Battery Directly to Starter! Fortunately, having just rewired the entire charging and lighting system on my boat, I had plenty of marine grade heavy gauge cable and lugs lying about. 3' of #02, solder, and 2 lugs and I was good to go.

Engine fired on 1 cylinder and ran on for about 5 seconds. After I let the battery recharge, and starter rest, it wouldn't catch again. Interesting and new problem... Inside the plenum under the throttle venturi, there is fuel puddling in the plenum. Leaky cold start injector? Something miswired telling it to stay open?

Anyone run into this before?

Thanks

[bd1308]

unplug the cold start valve and somehow disconnect the fuel supply.

if problem disappears, you're golden.

[Twystd1]

PuHhhLease... Pull out all the fuel under the throttle body..

This can make for an engine fire if not removed.....!!!!!!!!!!

One backfire through the exhaust valve and bad stuff happens...

Especially if you have your head over the intake..!!!!!!!!!!

I use a turkey baster throught the throttle body and soak up the rest with a piece of rag at the end of a nose picker...
or pull the throttle body off and clean it up...

There is also another reason you may have fuel in the mainifold. Check to see if you have the fuel lines running the correct way through the fuel regulator..

if ya have it ass backwards... you can push 90 + PSI of fuel past the cold start injector and REALLY fill up the manifold... Just ask Headrage....

Plus you will be running to much fuel pressure on the 4 injectors. Thus washing the oil off the cylinders and have to rebuild your motor in hours... Not days.....

My .02 worth.

Twystd1

[hmeeder]

QUOTE

This thread will probably add one notch to the "Pertronix Sux" arguement.  Let me explain ...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) Add a notch for me. What always galled me was that it says in the paperwork and on their website that leaving the ignition on for more than 30 seconds will fry the thing. I have found out that 30 seconds is really not that long a time.

3 units later (and a compufire that ran great fro 3 years) I'm back to points for now.

[grasshopper]

umm...i'd advise bypassing the seat interlock system....or the buzzer. solder the two big yellow wires together.

[Flat VW]

Someone needs to publish a recipe book for the Petronix,

Ya know, baked Petronix--- fried Petronix---- sauteed Petronix,------ Petronix asado (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blowtorch.gif)

John (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

[Brian Mifsud]

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Oct 11 2005, 10:24 PM)

PuHhhLease... Pull out all the fuel under the throttle body.. This can make for an engine fire if not removed.....!!!!!!!!!! One backfire through the exhaust valve and bad stuff happens... Especially if you have your head over the intake..!!!!!!!!!! I use a turkey baster throught the throttle body and soak up the rest with a piece of rag at the end of a nose picker... or pull the throttle body off and clean it up... There is also another reason you may have fuel in the mainifold. Check to see if you have the fuel lines running the correct way through the fuel regulator.. if ya have it ass backwards... you can push 90 + PSI of fuel past the cold start injector and REALLY fill up the manifold... Just ask Headrage.... Plus you will be running to much fuel pressure on the 4 injectors. Thus washing the oil off the cylinders and have to rebuild your motor in hours... Not days..... My .02 worth. Twystd1

Hi Twystd1,

wow.. good tip on the supply side (90psi) warning.. I'll go see..

I had disconnected the cold start entirely by capping the line, maybe I can reconnect if it if the routing was the only problem.

thanks

Brian

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (hmeeder @ Oct 12 2005, 09:02 PM)

...leaving the ignition on for more than 30 seconds will fry the thing. I have found out that 30 seconds is really not that long a time.

Friday i had the ignition on in the development Mini for 4 hrs. ...

we do this frequently.

[fiid]

A perfectly running Mike Mueller engine?

Next thing you'll be telling us it's turbo'd....

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