Individual throttle bodies, Help me spend my money- Options

[ottox914]

Here I am stuck in UCLA- ugly corner of lower alabamma- (no disrepect intended to those who live here- its just not home for me) working on Katrina storm claims.

3 weeks of 14 hr days. Insurance adjuster.

The storm bonus should cover cost of some used carb manifolds, throttle bodies, injectors, cross bar linkage, and some fuel rail bits and pieces.

What to buy? Where to buy? What size to buy?

Jenvy, TWM, Redline/weber, C.B., others?

They'd be going a basically stock 2.0 with a Kerry Hunter header, euro p/c's, stock cam/valves/springs, and stand alone ECU system. The car runs SCCA DSP, so no changes to the long block allowed. I'd like to size the throttle bodies and injectors to be big enough to move on to a Jakester 2316 in a year or 2, when I save up some more $$ for his kit.

Planning on the linkage from triad west, as it seems most complete, has had good reviews, and uses lots of heim joints. I like that idea.

Any thoughts? Any real world experience?

Thanks!

[Qarl]

What are you gonna use for the fuel injection system?

[rhodyguy]

can't comment on anything other than the triad. quality piece. i love the one on my car.

k

[Jake Raby]

I have the TWMs in stock- they are what I use in my EFI kits. The 3216 so far really likes the 45mm arrangement from TWM and the linkage is very easy to set up compared to several of the others on the market. I am Jenvey's US dealer and I'll tell ya now that a set of them with fuel rails and stacks will run you about 1200 bucks after the shipping and they are no better than the TWMs. Actually I prefer the TWM arrangement because of the way the butterfly is located 1/2 way up the T/B bore.

Here is a 914 club member's 2316 equipped with TWMs..

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/gwanegar/vert%20033.jpg)

Here is a better pic of the TWM throttle body
(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/gwanegar/vert%20041.jpg)


And here is the power
(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/gwanegar/gwanegardyno.JPG)

[rhodyguy]

what does the whole enchilada run for the TWMs? what's the hp gain with the TWMs as opposed to a like engine with carbs?

k

[ottox914]

Jake, I'd be interested in the $$$ as well, and if you could break it down into TB's, injectors, manifolds, velocity stacks, air cleaner assy's, and linkage. Speaking of the linkage, comment on that one in the photo, please. TMW part? There have been several notes to different threads, (found them thanks to Mr search) about center mount linkages being not as good as the more traditional dual carb/hex rail type of thing we've all seen for years, not a progressive rate on the cable pull, problems with expansion of the motor vs linkage. That one looks pretty cool. Whats your take on linkages? And how about injector size for the 2316 vs my stock 2.0? Can one size do double duty, now and later?

I know everyone is always trying to milk you for more info- If you want to PM me a reply with prices thats fine.

What am I using for EFI? Its a secret. I'll spill it once its on the car and working.

[Jake Raby]

Thislinkage is stainless steel from Germany. Itsmade for TIV engines with 911 shrouds, but works very well in a teener as well, I had one on my 914 until I added the DTM and then I had to fab up a new one..

I sell the TWM T/Bs for about 280.00 each wirth fuel rails, and TPS in the 40-45mm size, the 48 and up to 52s are 296.00

I have had the best luck with smaller engines with 22# injectors, the 2316 pictured runs a 30# injector.

Here is my newestbellcrank style DTM linkage. I'm drawing this one up off the prototype as we speak. Its made especially for the guys running a DTM with the TWM T/Bs. Its a progressive rate arrangement that has a very smooth transition. Here it is on a 2270 FI beast.(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/dworrell/Linkage%20092.jpg)

And here it is as a close up. It actuates from a pair of roller bearings mounted to a fixed plate welded to my DTM generator stand.
(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/linkage/Linkage%20071.jpg)

I sell the linkage posted in the original post (for the stock fan/911 fan) for 89.95

[ottox914]

Jake has a new PM.

[Twystd1]

So what happens when the case, cylinders and heads expand from heat?

Does the linkage make up for the expansion?

Twystd1

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Sep 5 2005, 09:51 PM)

So what happens when the case, cylinders and heads expand from heat? Does the linkage make up for the expansion? Twystd1

isnt that the expressed benefit of self centering hex bar linkage as opposed to bell crank style?

[Britain Smith]

Hey Jake, what type of injectors do you use?

-Britain

[Jake Raby]

Those are Ford 5 liter injectors. I also use the 2.3L Turbo injectors for the large engines they are 42# injectors.

The bellcrank linkage that I have made for the DTM has a certain amount of expansion in its self that I designed into it, because the two outer links are aluminum. I use heim joints that have a tad bit of slop in them as well that will make up for a small change.

The main thing I see with bellcrank linkage and expansion is the fact that the engine is operating at too high of a temperature and CAUSING the linkage issues. If the engine is kept below 350 F the issues just don't occur, and using the DTM running below 350 ain't no sweat!

The engine thats pictured above went through two solid days on the dyno and not once did I encounter any linkage issues from over expansion.I removed the belt and got it to 400F once and still no issues- I was TRYING to aggrevate them into occuring and they still didn't.

Hex Bar linkage will NOT work with the TWMs because of the butterfly position in the T/B.

[ottox914]

So it would seem that if I'm liking the TWM's, I'm also liking your center mount linkage... Oh well, its alot cheeper than the triad set up. In general terms, for those of us with oil temp gauges but no cyl head temp gauge, is there a rough equivalent between the 2, in terms of when to look out for expansion issues, and what would these issues be? If the engine expands more than the linkage, would WOT not be fully WOT, or could there be breakage issues with the linkage/throttle bodies from the expansion of the motor not matched by the linkage?

Has anyone, other than perhaps Jake, actually had problems with the center mount linkage, or are we all just tossing out theories with no experience?

[Mueller]

QUOTE (ottox914 @ Sep 6 2005, 10:45 AM)

In general terms, for those of us with oil temp gauges but no cyl head temp gauge, is there a rough equivalent between the 2, in terms of when to look out for expansion issues, and what would these issues be?

seems silly to be spending all that money on the Fuel Injection and not buy/install a CHT gauge which can save you thousands of dollars down the road (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

and the answer is no...by the time the oil reaches the critical temp, it could be too late.......

[Jake Raby]

Must I repeat it TEN thousand times!! Head temps and oil temps are NON related! One can fry while the other is frigid..

As I said earlier- engines that run TOO HOT of head temps OVER EXPAND and then you may have issues with the linkage.

The linkage I designed and fitted in the pics was dynoed to hell and would return from a 7,000 RPM power pull right back to idle and snap the butterflies against the stops with no issues.

I have seen some engines that had issues with bell crank linkage, but those engines were running too hot.

I like Hex Bar linkage as well, BUT in some instances it justcan't be used and with the TWM T/Bs you'll have a VERY difficult time using it- thats why I went bellcrank.

[ottox914]

wow. sorry for asking. I guess 10,001 is in order, as I somehow missed the first 10,000 times... I was planning on doing a little head fin removal work as Chris F. did to perfectly install his CHT sensors under the plugs, and place a sensor under #3 of course. Was planning to do this as part of the throttle body/EFI upgrade, to give a better signal to the ECU. Looks like I'll be adding a CHT gauge as well. I don't want to have to live thru 10,002...

Bellcrank good enough for you, bellcrank good enough for me.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (ottox914 @ Sep 6 2005, 03:33 PM)

wow. sorry for asking. I guess 10,001 is in order, as I somehow missed the first 10,000 times... I was planning on doing a little head fin removal work as Chris F. did to perfectly install his CHT sensors under the plugs, and place a sensor under #3 of course. Was planning to do this as part of the throttle body/EFI upgrade, to give a better signal to the ECU. Looks like I'll be adding a CHT gauge as well. I don't want to have to live thru 10,002... Bellcrank good enough for you, bellcrank good enough for me.

you'll want 2 CHT's...the stock CHT is fine for the ECU, all it is for it enrichment for when the motor is cold, basicly it is like an on/off switch.....putting it under the sparkplug would be overkill.......the ECU will be looking for a change in resistance..the under-the-plug type gives you a voltage and it might fry the ECU depending on brand and what signal it is looking for....

the other CHT you want for your gauge will be under the sparkplug as you mentioned for reading what the cylinder is really doing....

[ottox914]

Good catch- I'd have thought the better sensor would lead to better signal to the ecu, done the under the plug, and cooked something.

Speaking of CHT's, what is considered O.K. for stock cooling 2.0 motor?