type 4 turbo guys-, what turbo did you pick and why- Options

[ottox914]

Alot of turbo talk lately. Just curious, for those who have been there/done that, what turbo did you pick, why, and if your project is on the road, how do you like it?

[airsix]

IHI off of Subaru 1.8L. Chosen because readily available, inexpensive, and very close displacement match with my 1.7. I wanted to be sure not to use an oversised turbo because I autocross and want boost as low in the rpm range as possible. From rolling idle I can apply throttle and boost begins to build by 2,000rpm. (takes to about 3,000-3,500 to reach 8psi). It is a responsive turbo - I can blip the throttle a few times and have boost before I even drop the clutch.

-Ben M.

[brokenmoped]

Someone needs to design a damn kit and sell it. Teener lovers NEED turbos!!!

Thank you and good day.

[dlo914]

check out www.protomotive.com they do turbo work on Porsches

[Sammy]

I used a garrett airesearch T3 hybrid turbo from a chrysler lebaron 2.2 liter. The same turbo is available in the chrysler mini-vans and just about anything else chrysler turbocharged.
Why? it has real mechanical seals instead of less efficient ring seals, parts are very cheap and easy to find, I found a good one in a pick-a-part for $70 (I picked it from the 8 identical turbos in the yard that day), There are a zillion of them available used, it doesn't have a screwy flange design, it has a built in waste gate, it was the right size for a 2 liter and had almost exactly the right A/R (just a little bigger than I needed).
In my mind the real question is, why use anything else?

On the turbo kit topic, good luck to whoever tries it. Lots O'tire kickers, but more frustration and hassle than anyone wants to get into. I'd be surprised if anyone could sell more than two or three kits.

[Jake Raby]

You guys might just wana wait to buy any Turbo related goodies.....

I don't tell everything thats going on at Aircooled Heaven all the time...

Remember I sold the 2316 Hybrid out of my 914 a few weeks back....

I wonder whats being developed to replace it???

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/boldblue.gif)

I'll tell ya...

First I'm going to MELT 3 stock engines! I have 3 good solid cores that run great and are going to be my victims as soon as the prototype header/ kit is finished. The prototype system is being made so we can make changes on the dyno and then when the best combos are found it can be stretched into the 914 and made to physically fit THE SMART WAY. No Turbos in the engine bay and crap like that!

So I have a 1.7, 1.8 and a 2.0 all that have a date with Doctor death. The engines are all 100% stock and since the only way to find what the stock engines will take boost wise before failure with the end user is to melt them in development. This way I will gain TONS of data to help guys with stock engines know the limitations of boost both intercooled and non intercooled as well as water injected. I plan on killing a couple of these engines two or even three times to see the effects that my DTM has on them as well as intercooling and water injection.

So far I can say that I will be able to provide a full assembly for the serious Turbo spower seeker but I DO NOT plan on selling just a couple of components. I will be doing all this testing with several standards. My target is to complete a kit for the majority of guys here that have a stock engine, no matter the displacement. The kit would allow the stock engine to be removed,(NOT DISASSEMBLED) all my goodies bolted on and then the entire set up to BOLT ON and provide an effective Turbo engine. My testing will allow me to pre set the waste gate and even upload fuel MAPS into the ECU to further increase simplicity for the end user. Thats what testing enables us to do!

So far the kit is being based and tested with the following items being provided in the kit.

-914 DTM
-Replacement rain tray modified for DTM
-Intercooler
- RAT-SDS Based EFI system complete from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator(you just provide fuel lines)
-Complete Turbo arrangement including header, Turbo, Waste gate and all plumbing, clamps etc. All Turbo components will be ceramic coated
- Installation DVD to aid with tuning as well
- Optional Water injection arrangement.

Everything will bolt into the 914 with no cutting of the body and no welding/fabrication required.

I have NO intentions of providing a Turbo arrangement for the TIV engine any less complete than this, and I don't plan to make it work with Carbs, or with the stock cooling system- Thats out of the question because both can get the end user in serious trouble fast!

There are limiting factors that impact the TIV engine when Turboed and I have experienced many of them first hand. The intercooling will solve most of them and the DTM will take care of others. My testing will show the others because I promise you I will push the engines to the MAX to find the acceptable boost and power that each stock engine can take.

After the stock engine testing is complete (probably by February at latest) I will then test my newest Turbo engine design, the 2081. This combo couples one of my 80mm cranks to a 91mm custom piston used inside a stock 1.7 cylinder for the best head seal without having to run Nickies. With Turbo engine size isn't the key- Being able to hold boost is the key to making power reliably and this combination I feel will work great! This 2081 engine will be getting internal changes made to it many times on the dyno before getting installed completely in my 914. The Southeast Dyno day is the 2nd weekend in March and its my goal to have the 914 there making big power for the crowd so I can keep my crown for the 3rd year in a row. Target HP is 240 at the wheels! Target boost is up to 20 PSI intercooled!

Now, please limit the questions about the size Turbo and etc that I will be equipping the kit with, because I have no idea! I have 4 different Turbos to test with it and at least 2 different compressors will be used for each one.

I have been working on this for quite sometime and my fabricator is REALLY working his ass off to help me get the header work and plumbing all designed correctly and the smart way. He has mondo experience with the Rice Rocket crowd in the Turbo arena so between myself, Len and the fabricator we are all putting our best efforts into making the phrase "You can't Turbo a 914" a myth.... The problem with ill fated Turbo 914s before is the fact that they were never done correctly and no one knew the limits- Thats not the case this time, this is a HUGE effort..

The reason I'm doing most of this Turbo first with the 914 is because I feel that while not many teeners are spending money for my complete engines these days due to cost that this Turbo set up will provide another option for the teener and it will be a product of mine and no a full engine. What I'm trying to say is if you can buy a Turbo kit for less than my complete engine and make MORE power I think it will wake things up a bit for everyone.

As for cost, no idea yet, but you do not want to see the budget I have planned for this development. In fact the entire year of 2006 is dedicated to Turbo development here and it's all I'm going to do.

You guys know I do things right and well thought out. All of this takes time but I don't see a reason in the world that we can't have the kits for stock engines ready to sell by summer 2006.

I'm away right now on my laptop on a mini vacation. When I return I'll be gearing up to melt the first engine, a 2.0 914 spec engine that has about 80K miles on it and then the fun will begin!

Be looking for updates on my forum as things progress and I promise they will progress fast.....

Now you know why I installed all the new computer equipment and the second dyno!

Its all about removing the guesswork!!!!!!!! Done-

[Sammy]

We need a "hold your breath until you turn blue and pass out" emoticon (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Brando]

Hot damn Jake... you really plan your stuff out when taking on a task like that. I applaud you (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

But here's the kicker... Will us "914 crowd" be able to afford it? Being the CSOBs most of us are...

[Jake Raby]

I will cut the costs where I can, and while its not going to be "Cheap" it will have top quality components and will not require a full engine to be swapped or even built unless you desire huge power.

My goal for a 100% stock 2 liter engine with no mods other than upgrading the valve springs and retainers to make 160 ponies... That would equal the power of one of my N/A 2270 engines and undoubtedly would make more torque.

The kit will include an extra oil sump(thats where the return oil will get back to the sump) as well as the complete 914 DTM with all surround tin modified to accept the intercooler and fit the engine bay like a glove easily. This will also include the complete EFI system with TWM throttle bodies, bellcrank linkage and the works right down to the injectors. The system will also control ignition timing and come preset for ease of install.

I don't like to give guys things that are incomplete, or half ass at all, even if that means I'll lose sales! This is especially true as particular as a Turbo arrangement.

Right now I could see a full cost of about 5,500.00 at this point for the entire arrangement, but thats about 1/2 the cost of one of my fully developed N/A engines at this stage of development. Until my development of those engines took their price over 8,000.00 I was able to service many more teeners so I feel quite sure that the kit could sell for 5K or so and sell pretty good, atleast good enough to pay for my development that would surely bleed over to my conversion engines wher I KNOW it will sell!

This is taking a huge amount of time to accomplish for all involved, but its very fun work because Turbo is something that I do nop have mega data on currently, only a couple dozen projects have been accomplished here. I certainly have not taken the TIV to the MAX under boost the way that I plan to in the near future.

I plan on breaking alot of parts and having a hell of a lot of fun while finding the limits of the TIV engine under boost- If it costs money, who gives a damn!

[BIGKAT_83]

I bet that thing will rip up the Tarmac..............


Bob (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

[banksyinoz]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)
jake you are the king, you have probably noticed that i am one of the subyconversion guys here but thats life, from my turbo experiences most cars now are benefieting from using ballbearing technology with the latter nissan items being of good quality, they spool fast and hold boost until high in the rpms.
jake im glad to see that you are pushing hard with this and if i was over there in the area i would be offering all the support i could, with injection and turbocharging the 914 will become a road animal that will make other road users be cautious of and with your experience make it available to all

good luck jake and please could you post pootage of destruction ,i understand you have cameras in your new dyno room (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Sammy]

7 psi on a completely stock 2 liter with no intercooler will get you 160 hp, maybe more. Not much testing required there, it's easy to do and has been done.

But 20 psi? that will take some serious homework and lots O'destroyed parts to get it right.

[Steaditim]

Personally, THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!

When this kit becomes available, count me in.

I look forward to seeing your work Jake.

Tim M

[Jake Raby]

Big Kat,
My teener is just up the road from you getting its fab work done for the Turbo... I bet you are the guy that checked it out over on the TARMAC, huh??

Like I said, this isn't just for the 914- The 914 just happens to be my patient for this first serious experience and development.

Everything I plan on working with will be intercooled, I feel it is necessary to overcome even the simplest of the design flaws in the stock engine, even while running less boost.

Let me stress that 20 PSI boost is not going to be something I even expect the stock engine to take at all. I feel that the sealing of the heads will be the huge limiting factor closely followed by the cast pistons. Like I said, thats why I'm going to intentionally increase boost incrementally all while doing compression and leakdown checks at each increase to see where things start to go down hill and THEn I'll keep on until it looks like 3 Mile island inside!

I certainly can see a Turbo specific engine of mine with correct design and superior parts handling 20 PSI boost, even with stock cylinders. I am designing that engine primarily for strength and its getting all my valvetrain upgrades as well as all the coatings. The big kicker is the twin plug ignition, which will add a TON of detonation resistance in its own right.

Cam changes, how about 8-10 different tear downs and cam swaps with their respective dyno sessions! Thats what I see happening with this test beast as well as the compressor and boost changes that can be expected. FYI- I ordered 8 of these Turbo pistons instead of 4 because i also expect to melt them as well at some point and that way I'll be ready!

If Len can get me another set of heads prepped for this beast engine I will also do a bore increase up to the 98 and 100mm Nickies and see what displacement does to power and boost and of course heat and how the Nickies can help with all that...

Like I said- I have a FULL YEAR of Turbo R&D funds and time allocated to this and I'm not playing around- Not at all.

QUOTE

7 psi on a completely stock 2 liter with no intercooler will get you 160 hp, maybe more. Not much testing required there, it's easy to do and has been done.

But how long will it hold the boost and what will let go first? when will the stock head studs compromise? When will the rod bearings die? when will those 800 gram rods with shitty stock bolts let go?? When will the Mahle pistons become "perforated"??

I'll know ALL of that (and so will you) by this time next year!

BTW- Who knows how to upload streaming video to the net?? I'd gladly broadcast from the death chamber for all to see and MAYBE we can even get the datalogger information streamed as well.

I'm about 3 weeks away from the first round of testing.

[bug man nrg]

turbo on a type4 works well if you know how much power up need for the street .10 psi is a good 160-205hp this a hand full for a day to day day but 20psi of boost is a hole new ball of wax .you all think more is better but it is not for road use i have done the 20+ psi thing and it gets old quick trying to keep the car on the road .the upgrade you will have to do on your brakes the bigger wheels and rubber you will need and so on .if you are going to build a dyno queen go for it .but remember all that power come with a price tag .

[Jake Raby]

Trust me, it won't be a dyno queen... The dyno is a tool here, and thats it..

These cars are ALL I DRIVE, everywhere I go.... Thats how my teener went 11,200 miles from March- August of this year.. Thats 181 BHP of fury that got the ever living shit beat out of it, with constant revs to 8,300 RPM (at least once daily)

Whatever I do will get a lot of road miles at what ever boost that is ran.

In 1997 I did a 1776 TI that ran 23 PSI boost and made 235 HP at the rear wheels.... What a rocket it was! TI Turbo is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT Than a Turbo TIV.. Hardly any similarities between the two when boost is added.

[BIGKAT_83]

Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) Bob (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

[Hammy]

Jake the mad scientist (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

Streaming video of dyno work would be awesome!

[Jake Raby]

Yep....

BUT I just realized that I Hi Jacked this thread in a BAAAD way (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)

So, you guys can just wait till I start sharing info on my forum-

See ya then!

[r_towle]

First off, great to hear Jake.

Second, please keep the trunk functional for the roof.

Third, if you have a web site, or even if you have a cable connection, you could have your own web cam running live...you can turn it onand off as needed.

Look at Real Networks web site for streaming video tools etc.

Rich