Alot of turbo talk lately. Just curious, for those who have been there/done that, what turbo did you pick, why, and if your project is on the road, how do you like it?

IHI off of Subaru 1.8L. Chosen because readily available, inexpensive, and very close displacement match with my 1.7. I wanted to be sure not to use an oversised turbo because I autocross and want boost as low in the rpm range as possible. From rolling idle I can apply throttle and boost begins to build by 2,000rpm. (takes to about 3,000-3,500 to reach 8psi). It is a responsive turbo - I can blip the throttle a few times and have boost before I even drop the clutch.

-Ben M.

Someone needs to design a damn kit and sell it. Teener lovers NEED turbos!!!

Thank you and good day.

check out www.protomotive.com they do turbo work on Porsches

I used a garrett airesearch T3 hybrid turbo from a chrysler lebaron 2.2 liter. The same turbo is available in the chrysler mini-vans and just about anything else chrysler turbocharged.
Why? it has real mechanical seals instead of less efficient ring seals, parts are very cheap and easy to find, I found a good one in a pick-a-part for $70 (I picked it from the 8 identical turbos in the yard that day), There are a zillion of them available used, it doesn't have a screwy flange design, it has a built in waste gate, it was the right size for a 2 liter and had almost exactly the right A/R (just a little bigger than I needed).
In my mind the real question is, why use anything else?

On the turbo kit topic, good luck to whoever tries it. Lots O'tire kickers, but more frustration and hassle than anyone wants to get into. I'd be surprised if anyone could sell more than two or three kits.

You guys might just wana wait to buy any Turbo related goodies.....

I don't tell everything thats going on at Aircooled Heaven all the time...

Remember I sold the 2316 Hybrid out of my 914 a few weeks back....

I wonder whats being developed to replace it???



I'll tell ya...

First I'm going to MELT 3 stock engines! I have 3 good solid cores that run great and are going to be my victims as soon as the prototype header/ kit is finished. The prototype system is being made so we can make changes on the dyno and then when the best combos are found it can be stretched into the 914 and made to physically fit THE SMART WAY. No Turbos in the engine bay and crap like that!

So I have a 1.7, 1.8 and a 2.0 all that have a date with Doctor death. The engines are all 100% stock and since the only way to find what the stock engines will take boost wise before failure with the end user is to melt them in development. This way I will gain TONS of data to help guys with stock engines know the limitations of boost both intercooled and non intercooled as well as water injected. I plan on killing a couple of these engines two or even three times to see the effects that my DTM has on them as well as intercooling and water injection.

So far I can say that I will be able to provide a full assembly for the serious Turbo spower seeker but I DO NOT plan on selling just a couple of components. I will be doing all this testing with several standards. My target is to complete a kit for the majority of guys here that have a stock engine, no matter the displacement. The kit would allow the stock engine to be removed,(NOT DISASSEMBLED) all my goodies bolted on and then the entire set up to BOLT ON and provide an effective Turbo engine. My testing will allow me to pre set the waste gate and even upload fuel MAPS into the ECU to further increase simplicity for the end user. Thats what testing enables us to do!

So far the kit is being based and tested with the following items being provided in the kit.

-914 DTM
-Replacement rain tray modified for DTM
-Intercooler
- RAT-SDS Based EFI system complete from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator(you just provide fuel lines)
-Complete Turbo arrangement including header, Turbo, Waste gate and all plumbing, clamps etc. All Turbo components will be ceramic coated
- Installation DVD to aid with tuning as well
- Optional Water injection arrangement.

Everything will bolt into the 914 with no cutting of the body and no welding/fabrication required.

I have NO intentions of providing a Turbo arrangement for the TIV engine any less complete than this, and I don't plan to make it work with Carbs, or with the stock cooling system- Thats out of the question because both can get the end user in serious trouble fast!

There are limiting factors that impact the TIV engine when Turboed and I have experienced many of them first hand. The intercooling will solve most of them and the DTM will take care of others. My testing will show the others because I promise you I will push the engines to the MAX to find the acceptable boost and power that each stock engine can take.

After the stock engine testing is complete (probably by February at latest) I will then test my newest Turbo engine design, the 2081. This combo couples one of my 80mm cranks to a 91mm custom piston used inside a stock 1.7 cylinder for the best head seal without having to run Nickies. With Turbo engine size isn't the key- Being able to hold boost is the key to making power reliably and this combination I feel will work great! This 2081 engine will be getting internal changes made to it many times on the dyno before getting installed completely in my 914. The Southeast Dyno day is the 2nd weekend in March and its my goal to have the 914 there making big power for the crowd so I can keep my crown for the 3rd year in a row. Target HP is 240 at the wheels! Target boost is up to 20 PSI intercooled!

Now, please limit the questions about the size Turbo and etc that I will be equipping the kit with, because I have no idea! I have 4 different Turbos to test with it and at least 2 different compressors will be used for each one.

I have been working on this for quite sometime and my fabricator is REALLY working his ass off to help me get the header work and plumbing all designed correctly and the smart way. He has mondo experience with the Rice Rocket crowd in the Turbo arena so between myself, Len and the fabricator we are all putting our best efforts into making the phrase "You can't Turbo a 914" a myth.... The problem with ill fated Turbo 914s before is the fact that they were never done correctly and no one knew the limits- Thats not the case this time, this is a HUGE effort..

The reason I'm doing most of this Turbo first with the 914 is because I feel that while not many teeners are spending money for my complete engines these days due to cost that this Turbo set up will provide another option for the teener and it will be a product of mine and no a full engine. What I'm trying to say is if you can buy a Turbo kit for less than my complete engine and make MORE power I think it will wake things up a bit for everyone.

As for cost, no idea yet, but you do not want to see the budget I have planned for this development. In fact the entire year of 2006 is dedicated to Turbo development here and it's all I'm going to do.

You guys know I do things right and well thought out. All of this takes time but I don't see a reason in the world that we can't have the kits for stock engines ready to sell by summer 2006.

I'm away right now on my laptop on a mini vacation. When I return I'll be gearing up to melt the first engine, a 2.0 914 spec engine that has about 80K miles on it and then the fun will begin!

Be looking for updates on my forum as things progress and I promise they will progress fast.....

Now you know why I installed all the new computer equipment and the second dyno!

Its all about removing the guesswork!!!!!!!! Done-

We need a "hold your breath until you turn blue and pass out" emoticon

Hot damn Jake... you really plan your stuff out when taking on a task like that. I applaud you

But here's the kicker... Will us "914 crowd" be able to afford it? Being the CSOBs most of us are...

I will cut the costs where I can, and while its not going to be "Cheap" it will have top quality components and will not require a full engine to be swapped or even built unless you desire huge power.

My goal for a 100% stock 2 liter engine with no mods other than upgrading the valve springs and retainers to make 160 ponies... That would equal the power of one of my N/A 2270 engines and undoubtedly would make more torque.

The kit will include an extra oil sump(thats where the return oil will get back to the sump) as well as the complete 914 DTM with all surround tin modified to accept the intercooler and fit the engine bay like a glove easily. This will also include the complete EFI system with TWM throttle bodies, bellcrank linkage and the works right down to the injectors. The system will also control ignition timing and come preset for ease of install.

I don't like to give guys things that are incomplete, or half ass at all, even if that means I'll lose sales! This is especially true as particular as a Turbo arrangement.

Right now I could see a full cost of about 5,500.00 at this point for the entire arrangement, but thats about 1/2 the cost of one of my fully developed N/A engines at this stage of development. Until my development of those engines took their price over 8,000.00 I was able to service many more teeners so I feel quite sure that the kit could sell for 5K or so and sell pretty good, atleast good enough to pay for my development that would surely bleed over to my conversion engines wher I KNOW it will sell!

This is taking a huge amount of time to accomplish for all involved, but its very fun work because Turbo is something that I do nop have mega data on currently, only a couple dozen projects have been accomplished here. I certainly have not taken the TIV to the MAX under boost the way that I plan to in the near future.

I plan on breaking alot of parts and having a hell of a lot of fun while finding the limits of the TIV engine under boost- If it costs money, who gives a damn!

I bet that thing will rip up the Tarmac..............


Bob

jake you are the king, you have probably noticed that i am one of the subyconversion guys here but thats life, from my turbo experiences most cars now are benefieting from using ballbearing technology with the latter nissan items being of good quality, they spool fast and hold boost until high in the rpms.
jake im glad to see that you are pushing hard with this and if i was over there in the area i would be offering all the support i could, with injection and turbocharging the 914 will become a road animal that will make other road users be cautious of and with your experience make it available to all

good luck jake and please could you post pootage of destruction ,i understand you have cameras in your new dyno room

7 psi on a completely stock 2 liter with no intercooler will get you 160 hp, maybe more. Not much testing required there, it's easy to do and has been done.

But 20 psi? that will take some serious homework and lots O'destroyed parts to get it right.

Personally, THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!

When this kit becomes available, count me in.

I look forward to seeing your work Jake.

Tim M

Big Kat,
My teener is just up the road from you getting its fab work done for the Turbo... I bet you are the guy that checked it out over on the TARMAC, huh??

Like I said, this isn't just for the 914- The 914 just happens to be my patient for this first serious experience and development.

Everything I plan on working with will be intercooled, I feel it is necessary to overcome even the simplest of the design flaws in the stock engine, even while running less boost.

Let me stress that 20 PSI boost is not going to be something I even expect the stock engine to take at all. I feel that the sealing of the heads will be the huge limiting factor closely followed by the cast pistons. Like I said, thats why I'm going to intentionally increase boost incrementally all while doing compression and leakdown checks at each increase to see where things start to go down hill and THEn I'll keep on until it looks like 3 Mile island inside!

I certainly can see a Turbo specific engine of mine with correct design and superior parts handling 20 PSI boost, even with stock cylinders. I am designing that engine primarily for strength and its getting all my valvetrain upgrades as well as all the coatings. The big kicker is the twin plug ignition, which will add a TON of detonation resistance in its own right.

Cam changes, how about 8-10 different tear downs and cam swaps with their respective dyno sessions! Thats what I see happening with this test beast as well as the compressor and boost changes that can be expected. FYI- I ordered 8 of these Turbo pistons instead of 4 because i also expect to melt them as well at some point and that way I'll be ready!

If Len can get me another set of heads prepped for this beast engine I will also do a bore increase up to the 98 and 100mm Nickies and see what displacement does to power and boost and of course heat and how the Nickies can help with all that...

Like I said- I have a FULL YEAR of Turbo R&D funds and time allocated to this and I'm not playing around- Not at all.

QUOTE

7 psi on a completely stock 2 liter with no intercooler will get you 160 hp, maybe more. Not much testing required there, it's easy to do and has been done.

But how long will it hold the boost and what will let go first? when will the stock head studs compromise? When will the rod bearings die? when will those 800 gram rods with shitty stock bolts let go?? When will the Mahle pistons become "perforated"??

I'll know ALL of that (and so will you) by this time next year!

BTW- Who knows how to upload streaming video to the net?? I'd gladly broadcast from the death chamber for all to see and MAYBE we can even get the datalogger information streamed as well.

I'm about 3 weeks away from the first round of testing.

turbo on a type4 works well if you know how much power up need for the street .10 psi is a good 160-205hp this a hand full for a day to day day but 20psi of boost is a hole new ball of wax .you all think more is better but it is not for road use i have done the 20+ psi thing and it gets old quick trying to keep the car on the road .the upgrade you will have to do on your brakes the bigger wheels and rubber you will need and so on .if you are going to build a dyno queen go for it .but remember all that power come with a price tag .

Trust me, it won't be a dyno queen... The dyno is a tool here, and thats it..

These cars are ALL I DRIVE, everywhere I go.... Thats how my teener went 11,200 miles from March- August of this year.. Thats 181 BHP of fury that got the ever living shit beat out of it, with constant revs to 8,300 RPM (at least once daily)

Whatever I do will get a lot of road miles at what ever boost that is ran.

In 1997 I did a 1776 TI that ran 23 PSI boost and made 235 HP at the rear wheels.... What a rocket it was! TI Turbo is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT Than a Turbo TIV.. Hardly any similarities between the two when boost is added.

Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bob

Jake the mad scientist

Streaming video of dyno work would be awesome!

Yep....

BUT I just realized that I Hi Jacked this thread in a BAAAD way

So, you guys can just wait till I start sharing info on my forum-

See ya then!

First off, great to hear Jake.

Second, please keep the trunk functional for the roof.

Third, if you have a web site, or even if you have a cable connection, you could have your own web cam running live...you can turn it onand off as needed.

Look at Real Networks web site for streaming video tools etc.

Rich

Yea Jake, nice HiJack- I was going to mention that...

For the rest of us who either can't wait/can't afford/or just like to tinker around with our cars, looks like airsix, sammy, and bug man have BTDT. Anyone else? I'd like to know a little more, not so much about the engine mgmt used, but the hardware- what turbo, what A/R it has in the turbine and compressor sides, compressor maps, blow off valves, wastegates used, how soon do you get full boost, intercooling used, or not. I'd be more interested in massive torque than 25psi and lots of top end- Like those cones, and something more auto cross oriented than 1320 oriented is my quest. I was thinking water injection, as I used that on a ford focus I turbo'd, but in cruzing ebay, the subaru wrx/sti top mount intercoolers look good, with one inlet and 2 outlets, perfect to go along with my dual throttle bodies now on the car.

QUOTE (ottox914 @ Oct 29 2005, 08:40 PM)

Yea Jake, nice HiJack- I was going to mention that... For the rest of us who either can't wait/can't afford/or just like to tinker around with our cars, looks like airsix, sammy, and bug man have BTDT. Anyone else? I'd like to know a little more, not so much about the engine mgmt used, but the hardware- what turbo, what A/R it has in the turbine and compressor sides, compressor maps, blow off valves, wastegates used, how soon do you get full boost, intercooling used, or not. I'd be more interested in massive torque than 25psi and lots of top end- Like those cones, and something more auto cross oriented than 1320 oriented is my quest. I was thinking water injection, as I used that on a ford focus I turbo'd, but in cruzing ebay, the subaru wrx/sti top mount intercoolers look good, with one inlet and 2 outlets, perfect to go along with my dual throttle bodies now on the car.

without knowing all of your engine specs, driving needs and a bunch of other stuff...it's too difficult to give you all the answers.....

I recommend going to amazon.com and buying one or more of the following:

Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
Turbomania by Bob Tomlinson

the last 2 are kinda old, but still good reading....it'll give you a good head start...

with many things, it's all how it's put together and used...for one person a turbo from a Ford T-bird might be too small for one persons needs and setup yet too big for yours....there is no one perfect setup, especially if trying to do it on the cheap...

in a nutshell in my personal opinion

intercooler yes (air to air)
the single turbo I am using is from a Dodge Stealth twin turbo (each rated to flow to 164hp under ideal conditions)
if you stick with a used turbo from a popular car, all the specs can be found on the internet

normally, the smaller the turbo, the quicker the response for low end torque....if you compete with your car, before you jump into adding a turbocharger, make sure you read the rules, the addition of a turbo to a car not factory equipped can cause you to find no place to play or classed with mega-dollar cars that you have no chance of ever beating....

This is the slippery slope that I'm on...

I have a big 2.6 engine that was suppose to go in my teen...but I can always throw that in the '67 bug I'm building.

BUT the parts (2156cc) I just made a deal for are almost perfect for a turbo.

78mm crank, fly, PP, fan and rods, balanced by Jake

94mm Nickies, w/ type 1 94mm mahle's

Heads...I have 914 heads, but new squareport van heads might seal better.

SDS fuel injection and ignition. and a WB


The only reason to do a turbo is if I can keep my SSI heat exchangers...It gets freaking cold here.
Evil Ed kept his SSI's with no issues.

Thinking of the T3 because I can get them real easy.
The intercooler on the VW 1.8T engine is nice and compact.

How much heat comes off the intercooler? If the turbo is out of the bay could the intercooler be in the bay?

What cam????

Mark,
Lets talk.. You and I work well together and I think you'd be a great Guinea pig with Me=ueller's old parts!

I will say that I'm keeping a serious log book through all this testing as to what and when things start to happen so I'll have the info that has never been available before, undoubtedly with different Turbos.

Doing the Turbo thing yourself will continue to be a guessing game more than likely, simply because there are variables that each person will hit, mostly dependant upon the components used.

Those design flaws with the TIV engine that I always mention are still present, so we must all, keep those heavily in mind when watching the boost climb!

Mr Mueller, the ?'s you pose have already been addressed, in my mind, but not in print, so here goes-

Engine is a relatively stock 2.0, euro p/c's, little shaving to the heads, probably around 9.2:1, don't know, didn't build it myself.


Driving needs- more fun! And autoX, so torque>Hp in my mind.

Got the Bell book, refer to it daily when day dreaming...

I know, there is no one size fits all solution... just looking to learn from the experience of others, what has worked, what has not, and why.

AutoX classing. Turbo=SM2, which is fine. There are plenty of fast cars there, usually 1/2 of out top 10 come from that group. I'm consistantly top 30 or better out of 150+ car grids with the relatively stock motor. One of the fastest SM2 cars is a 73 Opel GT, with around 180 at the crank. So I'm shooting for around 180 at the crank as well. It may not be a national car when I'm done, but our chief driving instructor told me when I started all this silliness 5 yrs ago- you can build a car you enjoy 6 days of the week, and it is what it is on the 7th day, accept that and drive it, or you can build that world beater ultimate car for the 7th day, but don't expect it to be streetable for more than a drive to the DQ on those other 6 days... I'm building a 6 day car, and it is what it is on the 7th. I've had 2 top 10 finishes in my car this season, (on short tracks, of course) and have proven to myself and anyone else who would care that I can drive and the 914 certainly IS a weapon to be respected!!! Building the car I want to own, not necessairily the one I'd want to race(nationally).

My theory on the turbo project- I built a turbo Ford Focus that ran an "Aerocharger" brand turbo, 8psi, and the Focus is known to have a high static CR and agressive timing. I used "aquamist" water injection, but later changed to an air/water system with better results. Some chip tuning for the timing, larger injectors, and I had a totally stealth honda destroyer. Sold it with 66k miles on it, it now has 111k miles, and still going strong. I like the idea of keeping some compression for off the line grunt, adding some turbo for midrange, using sensible tuning parameters, and I ended up with a great daily driver. I hope to duplicate that success with the 914. It may not end up being as totally optomised as one of Jakes setups, but, hey, I like to mess with cars a bit, and if I was building that 7th day car, looking for the last tenth of a HP, Jake would be my man. At this stage of the game, I'm not, so lets share research and have some fun in the garage.

Any help on web sites with compressor maps?

Currently considering a "low pressure" turbo off a Saab 2.0. Any thoughts on that?

Mueller, I'm sure you've done your own research resulting in your choice of the turbo off the Stealth, but if that is at its max pumping 164 hp, is that maybe a bit small? I would think, being at the high end of the efficency for that unit, that you could be pumping alot of heat as well as boost. What were your thoughts in picking that unit and managing the heat? Not being critical, just asking...

QUOTE

Mueller, I'm sure you've done your own research resulting in your choice of the turbo off the Stealth, but if that is at its max pumping 164 hp, is that maybe a bit small? I would think, being at the high end of the efficency for that unit, that you could be pumping alot of heat as well as boost. What were your thoughts in picking that unit and managing the heat? Not being critical, just asking...

to be honest with you, no, I didn't research that particular turbo until after I bought it

turbo info and a half-a-dozen maps

For the motor I "was" going to build, my turbo would have been way too small, in fact the motor should have put out 160hp without a turbo as is.

Now that I am "stuck" with a 1.8 (I have 2 complete 1.8's), I think the turbo will complement it very well.

Corky Bell as well as others view water injection as a "band-aid", yes, it does work and serve a purpose, however, it's a consumable which always needs replacing and is one more thing to have to tend to...if you used it in the past then you have disipline to make sure it's always filled it, nothing worse than being on the gas in the heat of battle and running out of water

I like the advice from your driving instructor...

imachappy is a turbo 6 guy. he's btdt and i've seen his work.

A few observations:
Turbo cars that do well at AX are all fairly modern. All are EFI and all have boost come in at fairly low revs....The best of the bunch
seems to be the 3rd gen RX7 (I'll exclude the GT-2 Por$che) in the 2 WD group. I'm sure there is a trick to keeping even these cars on the boost....left foot braking? 4WD cars operate on a different level & don't have much to do with this discussion.

I've AXed Mr.2, but only in the rain. It was pathetic. Doing an AX course sideways is fun, but not the quick way around.
I have a buddy that does pretty well in his Mr2 T tho.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Oct 30 2005, 08:49 AM)

A few observations: Turbo cars that do well at AX are all fairly modern. All are EFI and all have boost come in at fairly low revs....The best of the bunch seems to be the 3rd gen RX7 (I'll exclude the GT-2 Por$che) in the 2 WD group. I'm sure there is a trick to keeping even these cars on the boost....left foot braking? 4WD cars operate on a different level & don't have much to do with this discussion. I've AXed Mr.2, but only in the rain. It was pathetic. Doing an AX course sideways is fun, but not the quick way around. I have a buddy that does pretty well in his Mr2 T tho.

Hey JP, at the SCCA auto-x you came down to CA for this year, there was a wicked quick Nissan 240SX that was turbocharged..of course since they didn't come from the factory with turbos, it was all aftermarket or from a donor car.....

turbo lag sucks, I've tracked my Volvo on the big track and nothing like trying to antipate when the turbo is finally going to spool up

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 30 2005, 08:33 AM)

Hey JP, at the SCCA auto-x you came down to CA for this year, there was a wicked quick Nissan 240SX that was turbocharged..of course since they didn't come from the factory with turbos, it was all aftermarket or from a donor car..... turbo lag sucks, I've tracked my Volvo on the big track and nothing like trying to antipate when the turbo is finally going to spool up

Yes, he was quick.
He started with EFI I assume. Wasn't a Japanese market only trubo 240sx?
There was also a 3 gen RX7 with an alloy SBC. Loved that.
There were lots of wicked quich cars there, not the least
of which was Steve Nilsony"s(sp) 914 who was right up there in the top 3-4 (minus the carts).

Yup, turbo aint zackly the hot set up for AX.
My SC prolly turns about the same lap times now as it did before the turbo, even tho it has at least 75 hp more. 80% of the time ay an AX you can't use the boost, the other 20% of the time you wish you weren't using it so much
It always seems to come on too strong at a time when I'm not all the way ready for it. Instant tank slapper.
The turbo 914 did the same thing but was more controllable because of the lower weight and torque.

If your going to autox, I'd say run a smaller turbo than you are thinking. You want the boost to be made fast. I saw an accura turbo with a Vtech engine autox regularly in SCCA. 3 grand... NOTHING, ba ba ba ba.. V tech kicks in... 140hp... gets louder. wait for it, wait for it.. boost starts, and it sounds like its pms'ing on steriods, seriously loud.. But for only like .5 rpms, then he either has to brake, or he shifts....

Sucks for daily driving too...
With 2 944 turbo's at home, The smaller turbo is much more comfortable with daily driving on and off the throttle than a big turbo lag with what feels like a 200 shot of nos....

I say TO3 with a smaller hot side of the turbo than norm...or something simular.... I cant give you any specs right now.. I just dont know.... lol

theres my ramble, Hope theres a sentence in there that helps!!

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Oct 30 2005, 06:27 PM)

blah, blah.....blah....blah theres my ramble, Hope theres a sentence in there that helps!!

yep....seems like a positive displacement supercharger would be much better for an auto-x car

All imza sayin is a smaller turbo would be better for street an autox rather than a larger turbo with more peek hp....

You can run more boost with a smaller turbo to make up the hp...

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Oct 30 2005, 06:20 PM)

All imza sayin is a smaller turbo would be better for street an autox rather than a larger turbo with more peek hp....

This is why I used the little IHI. Why use a turbo that doesn't get into it's own until 6,500rpm when you can't even run up there? My objectives would be different for a track or DE car, but for a street driven autocross ride I want all the fun to happen between 3-5k rpm.

-Ben M.

All of the above comments are proven in the real world. 2 of our top street mod cars are supercharged, not turbo'd. One of our top 5 FTD's is regularly a second gen MR2 turbo. Guy beats it like a stray dog, but he's fast w/a turbo. I've instructed in WRX's that NEED left foot braking to keep it up on the snort, but to compare, the STI's just plain GO! Just gotta get the turbo sized for your needs. The danger for all of us is going TO small on the exhaust side- to small = more back pressure and more heat in the exhaust system, making its way back to the heads. In a system like Ben's, with long runs and stock heat exchangers, I would expect that system could soak up some heat before "hot heads" became a problem. I'll be making a header system direct from the heads to the turbo, so the "heat sink" capasity of my exhaust system will not be as great.

Ben- can you have a look at your turbo and see if the compressor and turbine housings have the A/R cast into them? I'd be interested to know that relationship. I agree with fun from 3-5k, since with a stock cam and valve train, we make more noise than power above 5k anyway-

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 30 2005, 10:23 AM)

Mark, Lets talk.. You and I work well together and I think you'd be a great Guinea pig with Me=ueller's old parts! I will say that I'm keeping a serious log book through all this testing as to what and when things start to happen so I'll have the info that has never been available before, undoubtedly with different Turbos.

Sounds cool

Except for the cam and turbo I have almost everything I need.

I'd be willing to do some prototype fab work, share data, maps for.... advice, guidance and of course I need a cam.

I have a SDS WB that can datalog. I could change the cam or turbo once a year at least, during the winter jackstand time.
I'm able to do just about anything fab wise, I could probably do a quick change for different turbos.

I also have a swiss machinest who can do anything.


Above all... it has to be on the road for April.

I'd like to set you up with my Turbo and header/wastegate assembly since you already have the same EFI I'll be using.

And of course the 914 version of the DTM.

You can be my canuck guinea pig!

Cam is no problem. I already have 4 Turbo specific grinds and I designed 3 more before I left for my trip- they are being ground as we speak.

Looks like after I melt these few engines I'll end up rebuilding them a few times and I'll surely sell them CHEAP after I'm all finished with them..

A nuther hard lesson I learned, the last step to make a car faster at an AX is add horsepower.
It costs valuable points and moves you up in class, but doesn't lower the times near as much as tires, suspension, gearing, lowering weight, etc.
Only after you have done everything else imaginable to the car do you add horsepower.
I've done it three times (slow learner). I built up the power on a Porsche, chocked up 25 points or more and ended up in a much higher class, only to be spanked by cars with 1/2 the power. They spent the points to go fast in the corners, I spent the points to go fast in the straights. There are lots more corners than straights on an AX track so they won.
Of course, if the car is driven on the street as well as at AX, a little extra power can be fun

Horsepower makes a big difference on a big track and a small difference on a small track but it costs the same points.

Hey Jake,

Will there be a heater box version of the exhaust? Is this meant to be a daily driver type of upgrade or more of a performance damn the torpedoes thing?

Thanks,

Dean

QUOTE (ottox914 @ Oct 31 2005, 05:08 AM)

Ben- can you have a look at your turbo and see if the compressor and turbine housings have the A/R cast into them? I'd be interested to know that relationship.

I'll take a look and report back.
-Ben M.

QUOTE (agrump @ Oct 31 2005, 12:25 PM)

Hey Jake, Will there be a heater box version of the exhaust?  Is this meant to be a daily driver type of upgrade or more of a performance damn the torpedoes thing? Thanks, Dean

Jake you’re going to run into this question all the time.

I know you don't like heater boxes, but there is many a guy who doesn't want give up their heat.
I may have a solution.

Also you will sell more systems if you have a stock cooling system version. High-end customers can do the DTM version.

Mark, I am afraid you are right about the heat. I think the target price of $5500 is great for a well designed fuel system + cooling system + turbo system and proven horsepower but I would not give up my heating/defrosting system for it. Maybe I'm gettting to old, I use to ride my motorcycle the entire winter, then again maybe I'm just geting smarter.

I fabricated heater boxes for my turbo 914 (Crown turbo kit) some 30 years ago. A little sheet metal brazed together, and it worked very well. Yeah, I too wanted the heater.

Andys

A heater box pretty much isn't even a consideration at this point.. The design of the header may make it possible, but we are not working toward it.

I don't do much for full race cars, I prefer to create dual purpose engines/components that are very happy on the street, so this system is realy being researched primarily FOR THE STREET....

Every version MUST use the DTM for cooling, the entire turbo arrangement is being built with it as an integral component. The stock cooling system will limit possibilities of performance as well as place PHYSICAL limitations on the entire system. The DTM will allow the intercooler to be perfectly placed as well as the Turbo placed out of the engine bay all while creating an engine that cools superbly and simply.

The DTM however, is not the limiting factor on the heater box addition as I have heater ducts that can be added to any DTM easily. The limiting factor is getting everything to fit *the smart way* while providing a clean arrangement that does it's damn job!

Making a system thats less than a full arrangement that allows all the old stuff to be romved and scrapped creates nothing for me except headaches when guys create an issue for themselves....

I'm all about "Doing it all the way or not at all"... And in this instance that means everything other than your longblock can go into the dumpster, bolt on my arrangement and haul ass.... And if you want heat I ****might*** be able to make it work, but if it increases temps onebit, or makes the system look like crap it won't be getting my name on it.

I don't settle for compomises, and if that means I'll sell less systems if stock cooling cannot be utilized, thats just fine and I have already made my decision that I won't even consider stock cooling for this arrangement....

Why would a 914 four owner pay 5500-6000$ for a 160-180hp stock motor? You can swap a 200+ hp four or six for a few dollars more. Or if you are Dan for less.

Here we go again...

For similar money I'd prefer a big type four 4 - I guess. Thou my price range is more in line with a freshened up 1.7 and a subaru or chysler turbo, and a megasquirt or similar FI system. I look forward to all of Jake comments regarding his testing and MELTING ; )

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 31 2005, 03:48 PM)

I don't do much for full race cars, I prefer to create dual purpose engines/components that are very happy on the street, so this system is realy being researched primarily FOR THE STREET.... Then provide heat. I'm all about "Doing it all the way or not at all" I would consider heat part of a complete solution...anything less would be not done all the way. Now, 5-6 k is alot for the HP gain, but a well thought out system that INCLUDES heat right from the beginning and is integrated and not an after thought....that has merit. I look at all the cool header systems for type 1 beetles....no heat... The world is not always warm...a large part of your customer base must be in areas that need heat... If you were the one to come up with a system (for both type 4 and type 1) that could sustain a decent heating system, you would be famous. I know Berg did some bigger heater boxes for the type 1, but I have heard they are NLA..... Just 2 cents. from the Northern part of the country.

See above.

QUOTE (Brett W @ Oct 31 2005, 05:21 PM)

Why would a 914 four owner pay 5500-6000$ for a 160-180hp stock motor? You can swap a 200+ hp four or six for a few dollars more. Or if you are Dan for less.

Better question:

Why would a Honda driver even give a shit??????