Anyone have an opinion re: 914/Subaru conversions?, i.e. what are the pros/cons Options

[carreraguy]

Looking for more hp and was considering the Suby conversion route after seing one at last year's German Autofest in Ventura. IF I was to pull the trigger, I won't be doing it myself - looking at a turnkey solution. Aside from the cost, what are the pros/cons? i.e definitely NARP.

Seems to me that a 914 thta has an engine that is lighter than a stock 2liter engine but has 240-300 hp (depending on tuning, type engine etc.) would be a blast to drive assuming you had the right suspension, brakes, wheels/tires etc.
Thanks,

[d914]

if not looking at "budget build" I think this is a neat way to build a light weight high horse power streeter.. Iam also looking at the suby tranny to add to the "daily" driver target..

I'm re-doing a car from scratch, 5 lug w/ sc brakes, extra bracing , heat and air, track bushings..etc.

V-8, porsche 6, rotary are all valid, but I like the concept of modern engine and tranny in a 30 yr old car..... Also if tracking the car, once the conversion is done the long block is cheap!!! When all the window dressing is in the down side risk is a $700-1000 long block!

Light weight, flat four, decent hp and low exposure after conversion...works for me..

[lapuwali]

The chief downside is that if you intend to AX or timetrial the car, you can't do it at PCA events. If you intend it to only be a street car, no problem. SCCA and NASA won't give you any guff over a NARP engine, either.

[anthony]

To me the downsides are:

not aircooled
not vintage
not a Porsche engine
uber expensive if you aren't doing all the fabrication and tinkering yourself
which tranmission do you use for that 300hp?


To me the charm of a 914 is that it's a vintage aircooled car. Other than that I bet a 914-Suburu done right would no doubt be a fun car to drive.

[neo914-6]

Get a quote from Renegade Hybrids, they do turn-keys or better yet get a quote from series9 for a modern -6...

Modern drivetrain! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/thumb3d.gif)

If you want to keep it German, I "may" market the Audi conversion... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

[TonyAKAVW]

Well, my perspective on this is definitely a little biased. There are definitely downsides to doing a Subaru conversion and I think they have been covered already.

Maybe one thing to do is decide what is important to you. Do you like the ownership of a classic car? Do you like the nostalgia? Does the engine form an important part ofthat nostalgia? I'm not saying that putting in a Subaru engine will make it a modern car, but for people that are _really_ into preservation/antique value of the car, its unheard of.

If you like the performance of a 914, and its capabilities as a lightweight fast sportscar then engine choice might be affected by that. A Subaru engine definitely has more potential than a type IV in terms of reliable output power. Granted you CAN get 300 HP out of a type IV, but why?

Now in terms of how to get to 240-300 HP, you can do it with a Type IV and spend a lot more than any other option, you can use a 6, but for that kind of power will not be cheap either. You can do a V8, but then you have a heavy engine with lots of torque to deal with. And then you are left with engines like the Subaru, rotary, Audi engines, etc. The real advantage to a Subaru engine from a technical perspective is the fact that its a flat 4 (or 6) and done properly can result in a very low center of mass.

Now in terms of cost... If you are going to get a full Renegade setup, and an aftermarket ECU, etc., you will be into it for somewhere in the neighborhood of $6000-$8000 in parts.

-Tony

[carreraguy]

Thanks guys, good input! I'm going to have to decide exactly what I want; right now I'm leaning toward fun; I already have a taildragger that is mostly a CW car. So I guess I'm on the lookout for a rustfree, fairly clean, good tranny, not too expensive 1.7 or 1.8 car that I can drive to Las Vegas to visit the folks at Renegade.

[Kerrys914]

Not sure but can you get a HIGH HP Jake Engine for the same cost as a Suby conversion?

The one Suby I have seen and heard sounds like a type IV..weird (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[tat2dphreak]

for the cost of a turnkey, you may be able to find a 6... but I dunno... it seems someone said a decent 6 conversion was about 10k...

but all in all, I like the suby conversions...

they even kinda sound like a -4... if you don't mind pumping water, the scooby is fine... I think the suby is a better, more practical solution than a SBC... but that's just me

[mrdezyne]

My final deciding factor for doing my suby swap was a few laps at a local race track in a new Lotus Elise. You might say what the heck does that have to do with a 914 Suby swap but if you do the spec comparisons you come up with around the same weight to HP ratio.

http://www.lotuscars.com/Lotus_Spec_Sheet.pdf
Lotus is 1984 lbs for a base car. (per Lotus web site)
Lotus powerplant is 190HP@7800 (toyota engine)
Lotus torque is not so impressive at 138@6800

914 about 2150 lbs
Suby 2.5L N/A is 165Hp (bone stock w/ A/C, PS, and restrictive exhaust)
Suby torque is 165 flat curve

After seeing what that Lotus felt like, I decided if I could get anywhere close to that feeling I'd be happy. Throw in your turbo setup to bump up that HP range and you really have a screamer in nostalgic 914 clothing.....

[anthony]

Speaking of Lotus, Tom have you considered an Elise? I'm pretty sure an Elise will easily outperform a 914 - even a modified 914. Used ones are dipping into the low thirties. The other nice thing is that a used one still probably has its warranty and the engine is Toyota reliable.

[Porcharu]

I am obviously a little baised but what the heck. I thought about this and followed Scotts install for a long time before I made up my mind. I decided to install the 2.5NA Suby and the suby transmission. The only negitives that I see so far is the car is no longer a stock original 914 (mine was a nice almost rust free original car with a 5 lug conversion.) The way I am developing the swap the car will be able to be returned to stock and no one will ever know.
As far as the pros - lots more power, modern car maintainence, modern electronics vs 30 year old, transmission that doesn't suck and make me cranky everytime I drive the car, easy to find repair parts.
Cost - so far I have.
$1400 for complete 2005 engine with a claimed 2000 miles
$600 for 2005 trans
$200 for Saker AWD to FWD trans parts
$1000 for stand alone EFI system that I had from a previous project.
~$400 for adaptor flanges to mate the Suby trans to Porsche axles.
~$400 for custom radiator.
$108 for 4 911 sport mounts to hold everything.
~$500 for the engine, transmission, radiatior cradle (I'm making this so my cost is a lot lower)
~$250 for shift linkage parts - more for cable shift.
~$400-500 for exhaust
~$? VW bus axles
$300 for hardware, wire, hoses etc.
More $ to install a heater core, fan etc.

So what do you get for your $5500 or so? An engine that should make 180 HP and a mountain of nice flat torque hooked up to a new easy shifting transmission. Just add $ the sky is the limit to how much power you can get, looks like an honest 300HP is easily done with the 2.5 with mostly stock parts.
And if you really want you can put that hot 1.7 back in and be original.

[Mueller]

Hey Tom,

I cannot think of too many negative things about the conversion except for perhaps the PCA issue:

auto-x: "fun run" class only, no points or "official" time

time trails: not allowed

not that big of deal to some folks, there are plenty of run groups that allow pretty much anything for track events (not racing, just having fun), same for auto-x, SCCA does not care, you'll just be in a goofy class but if all you want to do is wring out the car once in a while, who cares what class you are in, as long as you can arrive and flog the car and have fun.

As a daily driver or weekend cruiser, I think the Suby (or any well done conversion) is a great idea...the key factors (at least for me) being that it must have at least 75% more HP and be dead-on reliable with no overheating issues, or half@ss wiring or whatever that might distract from enjoying the car.

I didn't get into a 914 (or my 911 for that matter) because of them being aircooled, it just happened to be the engine that came with them (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Do I like aircooled engines? Yes, but I like almost all engines, steam, stirling, diesel, you name it (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

When you are flying down a country lane, feeling the G's, does it really matter what is propelling you forward and out of each corner? As long as you can get from point A to point B, that is the important thing, if one method of thrust get's you there a little quicker or with more piece of mind, what is wrong with that??

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/MDB2.gif)

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (mrdezyne @ Feb 12 2006, 08:48 AM)

My final deciding factor for doing my suby swap was a few laps at a local race track in a new Lotus Elise. You might say what the heck does that have to do with a 914 Suby swap but if you do the spec comparisons you come up with around the same weight to HP ratio. Lotus is around 2100 lbs Lotus powerplant is 195HP (toyota engine) Lotus torque is not so impressive at 134 914 about the same weight Suby 2.5L N/A is 165Hp Suby torque is 165 flat curve After seeing what that Lotus felt like, I decided if I could get anywhere close to that feeling I'd be happy. Throw in your turbo setup to bump up that HP range and you really have a screamer in nostalgic 914 clothing.....

Elise weighs under 2000 lbs and has a very efficient six speed drivetrain to take advantage of the high end ponies.

I'm curious to know real weight of a Subaru engine conversion in a 914. Once you plumb radiator fill with water, fabricate mounts, add conversion plates to tranny, etc I bet the 914 gains a little weight over a Type 4.

So you would be draging around close to 200 lbs more with 30 hp less in a Suby powered 914 compared to the Elise. If I was going to do a Non-Porsche engine conversion I would definitely go for a newer generation 2.5 turbo from the WRX.

[carreraguy]

Thanks all for the good feedback.

I did think about the Elise but its like trying on a size 11 shoe when I'm a size 12 - it don't fit. Thats one thing I like about 914's - taller/bigger guys can usually find a fit (even if it requires removing the seat cushion to make room for your helmet to fit).

I may have located a reasonably priced, running, clean AND rust free pre-1976 car; stay tuned Subie fans, I may not be at the PCA events but I hope I'm still invited to the 914(non)Club.com events!

[McMark]

From what it sounds like, a 240-300 hp subaru motor is going to put you in the same $ range as a 3.6. I'm involved with two 3.6 conversions right now and I'm finding them not all that complicated. I would lean in that direction if the $ is roughly equal. A 3.6 914 would have a higher resale value, IMHO.

[Trekkor]

QUOTE

A 3.6 914 would have a higher resale value

That's true.

But the price comparison...I'm not so sure about that. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

I doubt if anyone has ever done a 3.6 conversion for under $11k in parts alone.

It would be interesting to hear what the most powerful Subie's are going for.


KT

[Porcharu]

QUOTE (McMark @ Feb 12 2006, 08:13 PM)

From what it sounds like, a 240-300 hp subaru motor is going to put you in the same $ range as a 3.6. I'm involved with two 3.6 conversions right now and I'm finding them not all that complicated. I would lean in that direction if the $ is roughly equal. A 3.6 914 would have a higher resale value, IMHO.

I think that would be including a stand alone FI system, a low milage engine, an almost new trans that has a wide choise of LSD's and gear ratios, new CV's etc. Not really apples to apples. I looked at 6's and just saw the parts list keep going and going.
Of course - I'm biased but I'm up front about it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (carreraguy @ Feb 12 2006, 08:03 PM)

I did think about the Elise but its like trying on a size 11 shoe when I'm a size 12 - it don't fit. Thats one thing I like about 914's - taller/bigger guys can usually find a fit (even if it requires removing the seat cushion to make room for your helmet to fit). I may have located a reasonably priced, running, clean AND rust free pre-1976 car; stay tuned Subie fans, I may not be at the PCA events but I hope I'm still invited to the 914(non)Club.com events!

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) I'm not tall and still felt confined in the Elise. I'd still buy one to restyle it. I saw a salvaged Elise on CL recently for $17k with some front nose damage but no chassis damage. Dam, need to get neo done so I can think of the next project...(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

'76 will require more smog conformance...

[grantsfo]

Take a look at this Subaru EJ20 Twin turbo engine from Japan. 250 hp from a flat 4!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Subaru-EJ20...036431274QQrdZ1