OT - Bio Diesel, Making it Options

[Randal]

OK, I'm not really interested in going around to all the restaurants in town to get used cooking oil.

But is there another cost effective way using vegetable oil, purchased in bulk, or is all that hooey?

Anybody on the club site have some experience?

Thanks.

Randal

[DanT]

Randal,
you want to run Canola in your new tow vehicle? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Isn't there a distributor for Bio diesel in the area?

[TimT]

To make bio diesel out of vegetable oils, you have to seperate the esters ( diesel) from the glycerin.

To do this you have to use a nasty chemical called Methoxide (Methanol+Sodium Hydroxide)

FWIW you can run a diesel engine on uncoverted vegetable oil. The oil needs to be filtered. and a seperate tank is added to the vehicle which holds the WVO.

more to it than thatbut it gives you the idea

[brer]

dude, go search this forum.

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/forumdisplay.php?f=15

[Randal]

Randal,
you want to run Canola in your new tow vehicle? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Isn't there a distributor for Bio diesel in the area?

Ha Ha.

You forgot the jokes about Wesson oil parties (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

Anyway, Bio Diesel purchased (where ever) is more expensive than diesel.

I'm looking for the answers/ experience as to whether you can "make" a cost effectively vegatable oil type fuel for diesels.

[SirAndy]

Anybody on the club site have some experience?

there's a guy in berkeley that sells it by the barrel. he's got a whole warehouse full of it and he does the running around collecting for you, then preps the stuff and sells it ...

forgot his name, but a search on google should help you finding him ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Andy

[TimT]

Read this it may give you some insight

Another informative thread

[Aaron Cox]

saw it made on "trucks" tv show...

google freedom fuel america.....

little do it yourself set up.....

methanol + lye and veggie oil... = diesel, and a sludgy byproduct

[grantsfo]

We have Bio diesel in Santa Cruz. I could drop some 50 gallon drums off. How about a commercial cooking supply outlet. They must sell bulk cooking oil. However from what I understand you need special pump to move cooking oil in the fuel system

[Dr Evil]

The major problem you will find after you spending about a month sifting through the various oppinions and "data" on line is the filtration after you convert it if you go WVO. Methoxide is a misnomer, but the name works to convey what the two ingredients are (as stated above). Methanol is not usually hard to get, and a search of the various biodiesel forums out there will yield the best lye to get at Home Depot and such.
IIRC, the University of Indiana or Iowa has a research paper on the subject on line. I have this info on my other computer and can post some here if you like.

Basically, conversion from used cooking oil to usable biodiesel is not all that difficult. You need to get a few garden variety things like a used water heater, some petcocks, pipe, and a 1" pump form harbor freight for about $25. Do research to see what people are doing to filter out their batches and make an informed decision on which method will work best for you. If you live in an area or have the space to have an open fire you can even use the left over glycerine to heat the next batch making the cost less to you overall. Also, there are ways to reclaim your methanol from the mixture so as to again cut cost and waste. Reclaimation is only a bit more involved and there are plenty of BBSs like this place where you can learn to your hearts content. Beware of the ones that are really pushing a product as their data are skewed and you will not get a whole picture. I believe I found the biodiesel forums to be the best one...I'll have to get the link.

Main idea for making biodiesel:
(not all inclusive)

1. Filter out frenchfries - duh
2. Titrate oil to find out what acidity it is so you know how much methoxide to put in to neutralize/convert your oil
3. Heat oil to 135 for like an hour (IIRC) converting thigs chemically (yes I am leaving out all of the chimistry mumbo jumbo for your reading pleasure)
4. Filter out glycerine
5. Use

If you use a suspended filtering agent then you need to filter it out as well obviously. Some let their tanks settle for a few weeks and draw from the top. If I had the time and space I would be runnign Bio D in my MBZ, but I do not. I will some day. And you can run your house on it as well if you are running heating oil. One of my collegues' fothers is doing just that and we have been talking.

[Dr Evil]

No special pump is needed for the cooking oil. There are a few years of certain makes that had fuel pumps that would not tolerate the Bio D, but so far all of the old diesels and the new TDIs and such have been proven to like the stuff just fine.

Initially you will need to check and change your fuel filters as the Bio D is a better solvent than regular D and will clean your system out completely. All of the crap will be caught down stream and thus the filters will clog initially.

I had this guy start talking to me at the FLAPS about my MBZ. He had a grease conversion (two tanks, needs heating, too much of a PITA for me to opperate). He was all talking about how he knew the VP of Bosch USA and that he said Bio D is bad for your car because it is too acidic. And that he knew the guy who rebuil all of the injection pumps around these parts and he would not touch the Bio D due to its corrosive acidity. He was really trying to push the whole grease thing on me, so I hit him with the science.

When you heat oil (in a fryer for instance) you break off the fatty chains from the glycerol back bone. These become free fatty ACIDS (FFAs). These are caustic to a point. When you convert this cooked oil to Bio D you convert these FFAs into neutral carbon chains (oils). Heating them at 135 is supposed to homogenize the oil mixture. Methanol is the solvent that allows the lye (base) to interact with the FFAs thus converting them.

the guy still would not hear it so I was like, "well, it was real nice talking wiht you. Have a good day." It was like I was trying to convert him to a different religion or something.

{The following was off of the top of my head so it may have an error in it, but the over all picture is correct.}

[Dr Evil]

Alright, I went upstairs to get the links for ya.

Great discussion board:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/719605551

One how to:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

More in tutorial form:
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/

And the research paper from Iowa State University:
http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Techni...ang%20Intro.pdf


That ought to keep ya busy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[brer]

whats the diameter of a FFA ?
they clump when cold right?

[Dr Evil]

whats the diameter of a FFA ?
they clump when cold right?

Diameter? Your F-ing with me, right? I dont know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) They are molecules that are liner carbon chains. Most vegetable chains are less than 21carbons, IIRC. Thus, it woudl be length, not diameter that woudl be the concerning factor.

Yes, there is a clumping action that occurs when the temperature gets towards freezing. There is some current research on the resourses that I posted looking into this problem. The easiest solution is to add diesel fuel. I lowers the "gel point" which is what your asking about. I believe the B50 and maybe even B80 are sufficient for cold climates. You are in SD, you would not need to worry there.

If you ran grease you would have to deal with clumping all of the time as it is unrefined and requires either exhaust heat or engine coolant heat to liquify.

[brer]

Not Fing with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

just begging the question....


Certain people have substituted the science of brewing bio with 1 micron filters.

Gravity fed cold filtered WVO that is dewatered can be ran straight.
Most of the fat elements are removed in filtration and through separation that takes place when its allowed to settle for X amount of time. As is being reported on the benz forum I posted above.

[Dr Evil]

Saying that most of the "fat" is removed is not correct. It IS fat. You convert from a Fatty acid to FAT of sorts. The things to filter out are the waxes, glycerol, and water emulsions that are formed during the refining process. Yes, 1um filters are great, IIRC the last I saw 2um was the industry standard. Most people that need to filter are the ones using KOH to dry their stock.

The ONLY way to keep it form gelling is to either cut it with somthing like RUG or Diesel, or to somehow make the carbon chains longer or polyunsaturated. Unsaturating fat chains causes the melting point to plummet so it gels at a much lower temp. It is easier than extending the chains usually. There are people out there currently using specific enzymes to do both. I bet getting these enzymes would not be too hard, but then you get out of the normal individual area and into the "hey I got a back ground in biochemistry" area.

For a deacent referrence on a great bio D set up look for the Dirty Jobs episode where he went to Tacoma, WA to work in a taco shop. They went to a guys house and showed how it is done.

I get you question now about the diameter of the molecules. You would not typically catch molecules in a 1um filter, only complexes of molecules.

Also used are sock filters, and gravity filtering. To each their own.

Any filtered WVO can be run. Hell, non micron filtered can be run, too. Diesels are amazing in that they run on just about anything compared to their gas siblings.

I am glad that I am not the only one interested in such things here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[brer]

we are still working on a 2 tank system for the benz.
still on step one: get it to run perfectly FIRST.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

http://www.freedomfuelamerica.com/

[drewvw]

if you've ever seen the engineering magazine make, they had an issue awhile back explaining how to make it at home.

I love driving behind those french fry smellin cars