Did Porsche have to go water-cooled? |
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Did Porsche have to go water-cooled? |
thomasotten |
Nov 9 2006, 01:55 PM
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#1
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,547 Joined: 16-November 03 From: San Antonio, Texas Member No.: 1,349 |
In the late 70's VW decided to go water-cooled, I gather to keep up with emission requirements. Porsche, obviously wanted to early on as well, with their 928 (intended 911 replacement). But, it seems they were able to keep their engine air-cooled way up into the 90's. Yet, they too went for water as well, even though they seemed to have conquered all obstacles. I alway wonder: did they need to? Why couldn't the engine continue to be developed as air-cooled? Materials are getting better all the time, and they actually want engines to run hot for greater efficiency, so why did they wimp out? Opinions?
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Cap'n Krusty |
Nov 9 2006, 02:01 PM
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#2
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
I understand engine noise levels had something to do with the change. Reaching required emission standards probably had a part in the change, as well, and KEEPING the levels low over the life of the engine, and in all running conditions and modes was certainly a consideration. The Cap'n
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Dominic |
Nov 9 2006, 02:03 PM
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#3
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Dominic Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 14-January 03 From: Vacaville, CA Member No.: 149 Region Association: Northern California |
In the late 70's VW decided to go water-cooled, I gather to keep up with emission requirements. Porsche, obviously wanted to early on as well, with their 928 (intended 911 replacement). But, it seems they were able to keep their engine air-cooled way up into the 90's. Yet, they too went for water as well, even though they seemed to have conquered all obstacles. I alway wonder: did they need to? Why couldn't the engine continue to be developed as air-cooled? Materials are getting better all the time, and they actually want engines to run hot for greater efficiency, so why did they wimp out? Opinions? Late 70's ?? VW had the water cooled Rabbit / Scirocco out in 1974. One of the reasons Porsche went to the current watercooled configuration was to utilize 4 valve technology.....of course I can't remember where I read that, might have been Bruce Anderson's 911 performance handbook? |
thomasotten |
Nov 9 2006, 02:08 PM
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#4
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,547 Joined: 16-November 03 From: San Antonio, Texas Member No.: 1,349 |
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SGB |
Nov 9 2006, 02:11 PM
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#5
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just visiting Group: Members Posts: 4,086 Joined: 8-March 03 From: Huntsville, AL Member No.: 404 Region Association: South East States |
The impetus for the 928 was concern over impending emissions and to a greater degree (appartently, as relayed by Ludvigsen in "Excellence was Expected"), noise. Europe lagged the US in requirements for pollution controls, but not noise controls. By the mid-eighteis, the HP barrier could only be broken with watercooling of the heads (962), and the 3.2 in the 89 carrera was prolly the most efficient air-cooler made. But the HP/KG curve compelled even better. To me, the value of air-cooling is weight savings. At some point, the same argument supports water cooling as well.
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anthony |
Nov 9 2006, 02:16 PM
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#6
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2270 club Group: Benefactors Posts: 3,107 Joined: 1-February 03 From: SF Bay Area, CA Member No.: 218 |
Water cooling was the only way to raise the hp per liter. Also, the 911 flat six is pretty maxed out at 3.8L.
Besides emmissions, I think it was also a cost saving measure. The old 911 engine was pretty expensive to construct compared to the new ones. |
smontanaro |
Nov 9 2006, 02:18 PM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 3-June 05 From: Evanston, IL Member No.: 4,197 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
I understand engine noise levels had something to do with the change. But everyone loved that sound. In fact, that's one reason I wanted a /6 instead of a /4... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Skip |
Mueller |
Nov 9 2006, 02:22 PM
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#8
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None |
I understand engine noise levels had something to do with the change. But everyone loved that sound. There is a differance between "sound" and "noise"..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The Cap'n is correct, even the type/size of tires that Porsche and other manufactures have wanted to use has lead to certain models not being legal in some countries. As much as I like my air-cooled cars, water is better for precise engine control of emissions, you can run higher-compression, the tolerances of the motor can be tighter....any mechanical device is going to work best at a particular temperature, with air-cooling, it is much more difficult to obtain that "ideal" temp with the outside temperature changing all the time and with the loads on the engine changing all the time. Even Jakes DTM is not perfect...if operated in a very cold climate, the motor might never achieve the correct warm up temps unless changes are made.. |
Mueller |
Nov 9 2006, 02:24 PM
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#9
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None |
I understand engine noise levels had something to do with the change. But everyone loved that sound. In fact, that's one reason I wanted a /6 instead of a /4... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Skip that's funny, I've gotten more compliments on my /4 (with header) than the 3.6 air-cooled motor in my 911 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
Brad Roberts |
Nov 9 2006, 02:27 PM
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#10
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Manufacturing.
I have had several of the new gen engines apart. They are stupid simple. Imagine HALF the pieces that are needed to assemble a 3.6 air cooled engine. NO joke.. they mimicked the Japanese and Chinese when it comes to manufacturing techniques. B |
Jake Raby |
Nov 9 2006, 02:35 PM
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#11
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
This is a perfect place to unveil the prototype for my new registered trademark...
It pretty much says it all... The full color version is almost completed.. It'll make awesone T shirt... |
Jake Raby |
Nov 9 2006, 02:36 PM
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#12
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
This is a perfect place to unveil the prototype for my new registered trademark...
It pretty much says it all... The full color version is almost completed.. It'll make awesone T shirt... |
Brad Roberts |
Nov 9 2006, 02:54 PM
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#13
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Ha ha.. you where a Marine huh ??LOL
Lose the eyes with tears and you have a winner! B |
Brad Roberts |
Nov 9 2006, 02:55 PM
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#14
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Now I see the skull!
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thomasotten |
Nov 9 2006, 02:58 PM
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#15
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,547 Joined: 16-November 03 From: San Antonio, Texas Member No.: 1,349 |
It looks like he's got a tear drop of water coming out of his eye.... lamenting the extinction of air cooled engines? Reminds me of that Indian in those pollution commercials.
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smontanaro |
Nov 9 2006, 03:00 PM
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#16
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 3-June 05 From: Evanston, IL Member No.: 4,197 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
I understand engine noise levels had something to do with the change. But everyone loved that sound. In fact, that's one reason I wanted a /6 instead of a /4... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Skip that's funny, I've gotten more compliments on my /4 (with header) than the 3.6 air-cooled motor in my 911 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yeah, but I'm an old fart. Early 911s were the dream cars of my youth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
Mueller |
Nov 9 2006, 03:02 PM
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#17
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None |
It looks like he's got a tear drop of water coming out of his eye.... lamenting the extinction of air cooled engines? Reminds me of that Indian in those pollution commercials. that's not water.....it's OIL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
bondo |
Nov 9 2006, 03:03 PM
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#18
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Practicing my perpendicular parking Group: Members Posts: 4,277 Joined: 19-April 03 From: Los Osos, CA Member No.: 587 Region Association: Central California |
I don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that getting 4 valves per cylinder was a consideration as well.
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smj |
Nov 9 2006, 03:19 PM
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#19
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"Dude, Steve from Berkeley." Group: Members Posts: 591 Joined: 28-August 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 4,691 Region Association: Northern California |
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Matt Meyer |
Nov 9 2006, 03:34 PM
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#20
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Überlurker Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Eastern Washington Member No.: 1,411 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
Did Porsche have to go watercooled, yes.
The amazing thing is they managed to stay aircooled as long as they did. Only a private German company would do that. I morn the passing of the aircooled Porsche engine, but Porsche developed it well past it making any sense. Assembly, noise, emissions, economy, efficiency, all are better with a modern watercooled engine and have been mentioned above. Don't forget what happens when aircooled engines run lean. I would think all manufactures selling in the US are using lean burn technology for efficinecy and emissions. Jake that logo needs to be put on a bowling (or mechanic's) shirt. That'd be worth at least a couple of dollars. |
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