The new 911 s/Carerra, OT, but I need to vent Options

[Pat Garvey]

Ok, this is my 3000th post. I saved this one because of how Porsche has delivered us "stalwarts" to unneccesary and even "backwoods".

Those of us who own classic 911's and 914's do most of our own work. Why, because the cars are relatively simple. Buy some books & tools - you can do most anything.

About 10 years ago Porsche lost me. They became too complicated to handle for a mere bean counter.

Just recently, I read an article about a 30 year member of PCA who bought a Cayman S,took it to the PCA Parade, and didn't know how to make the engine compartment visible for concours judging (He f_ing won!). Of course it was brand new! Wow, what a devastating win!

My point is - Porsches have become too complicated. Am I a fogey - bet your ass!

I don't want 300 dollar oil changes & transmission complexities that are meant for the track. I want relative simplicity.

I'm pushing retirement (well, actually I retired 5 years ago). I envisioned a 914/6GT or a 911RS as my retirement present to myself. or, just maybe a GT2. They've all priced themselves to levels that I don't want to commit to. May still happen.

But, my biggest problem is that Porsche, in my opinion is NOT Porcshe anymore They want us to "lease" every 4-5 years . The current management does not care about the Porscephiles that made them successful. They are not much different than GM or Ford. Yes, Porsche makles an excellent car, but one that any idiot can drive well. Everything that made a Porsche a car to be mastered has been removed/replaced by electronics.

Porsche is way too concerned with making money ( I wouldn't bitch if I could only buy some stock) and taking control of VW (why?)

Shouldn't they me trying for another entry level Porsche? Say, something around $28K, that an idiot like me could maintain? Nope, they've sold us out!

Yep, I'm pissed!

Pat

ps: Happy 3000th post to me!

[smontanaro]

Pat,

I feel much the same way you do. One point you made:

> Porsche is way too concerned with making money ( I wouldn't bitch if I could
> only buy some stock) and taking control of VW (why?)

I think the main reason to take control of VW is to buy into the low end of the market and make it feasible for a combined company to meet upcoming EU carbon emission standards. My understanding is that companies like Renault and Fiat won't have much trouble hitting the necessary targets (probably not VW either), but that companies like BMW, Mercedes and Porsche will. This, of course, assumes that the EU carbon quotas will be applied on a corporate basis and not on a model-by-model basis.

Skip

[PeeGreen 914]

Pat, Porsches are race cars. They always have been. they make race with race blood and to stay competitive against those they are classed with. They simply can't keep it simple. In fact, Porsches have been a little more complicated than most other cars ever since their creation. These engines have always needed more than you every day driver.

Congrats on your 3000th (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[SirAndy]

I don't want ...

The older we get, the less are we able to adapt to change. It'll happen to all of us.

What you have to realize, without change, there is no progress ...

The "good old times" are just memories of the past.
If we get stuck living in the past, we miss out on the present and the future.

There certainly is a difference between the pre electronics cars and the modern cars and i agree with you that i like the raw feel of a 914 over most modern cars, however, i do apprechiate modern design and electronics and i for one am actually curious about where all this is going to lead us.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Andy

[GeorgeRud]

I remember back at a Porsche Parade when then chairman Peter Schutz said that Porsche would continue to make parts available for all the Porsches built. Boy, that has certainly changed over the years.

The cars are not the same anymore. The engines are not built to be rebuilt, but rather seem to be thrown away (as well as the rest of the car?). At least GM offers reasonably prices crate motors for their cars.

As the cars get more computerized, it makes sense that the electronics will be constantly improved upon quickly, and old parts will not be available. Try to get parts for a 286 chip based computer! I sold a 911 cabriolet that I owned when the relays for the power top became unavailable and hod to scrounge the used market to get the parts to be able to raise the top. That was the moment that I realized that I would keep the 914-6 forever!

The new Porsches may have better numbers than the old ones, but there are none that I would consider anymore. A 911 Speedster or 993 Turbo are the cars that I hope to someday retire with. When air cooling went away, so did my enthusiasm for the new Porsches.

Thanks for listening to my rant!

[John]

Pat,

I know what you mean. Perhaps I don't have the years under my belt that you do, but I do have 20 years track experience.

In those 20 years, the technology has been vastly improved. The cars today have a guise of being overly complicated with all the whistles and bells, but they are still cars with 4 wheels, and engine, brakes, etc.

It still requires a great amount of skill to make one of these modern "Porsche" cars go fast around a track. I enjoy running with them on the track with our "vintage" 914. It kind of damages their ego to be passed and run away from such a lowly bastard child such as a 914.

What does (sort of) make me mad is that the newer cars are so good right out of the box, while it has taken us several years and modifications to sort out our car to the point where it is at.


So I don't really agree that anyone can drive the newer cars (or the older cars for that matter) fast or well. It still takes some skill behind the wheel, or you end up with a wadded up car stuffed into a guard rail.

just my $0.02

[turnaround89]

I don't have near the experience with cars that any of you have, but being 19 and owning 3 cars I have definitley come to like some more then others for certain reasons. The cars i own now are a 96 Grand Prix, 71 Vw Baja Bug, and my newest 72 914/4. I love the bug and the 914 for how well designed they are, nothing is overly complex and can be fixed with your average set of tools, i totally agree with the simplicity arguement, cars are getting extremely complex nowadays. Engineers seem to jam everything into the smallest space they can, and then when the average joe tries to work on the car, they need to buy a whole new tool set just to start the work. I hate driving my Grand Prix because certain things are done for you when you drive, like auto transmission, i want to control the shifts, not some computer. I have not once gotten out of my grand prix and said i want to get back in and keep driving. That happens everytime i get out of the 914 and the VW, they are great cars because they are what(i think) driving is all about. The two cars make driving an experience and adventure, while the Grand Prix makes it a boring task.

[PeeGreen 914]

I don't have near the experience with cars that any of you have, but being 19 and owning 3 cars I have definitley come to like some more then others for certain reasons. The cars i own now are a 96 Grand Prix, 71 Vw Baja Bug, and my newest 72 914/4. I love the bug and the 914 for how well designed they are, nothing is overly complex and can be fixed with your average set of tools, i totally agree with the simplicity arguement, cars are getting extremely complex nowadays. Engineers seem to jam everything into the smallest space they can, and then when the average joe tries to work on the car, they need to buy a whole new tool set just to start the work. I hate driving my Grand Prix because certain things are done for you when you drive, like auto transmission, i want to control the shifts, not some computer. I have not once gotten out of my grand prix and said i want to get back in and keep driving. That happens everytime i get out of the 914 and the VW, they are great cars because they are what(i think) driving is all about. The two cars make driving an experience and adventure, while the Grand Prix makes it a boring task.

I've got out of a few GT3s and wanted to get back in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[rjames]

Just recently, I read an article about a 30 year member of PCA who bought a Cayman S,took it to the PCA Parade, and didn't know how to make the engine compartment visible for concours judging (He f_ing won!). Of course it was brand new! Wow, what a devastating win!

Why not just have the contest at the dealership instead? Being able to competitively show a new car seems pretty pointless to me.

[championgt1]

Just recently, I read an article about a 30 year member of PCA who bought a Cayman S,took it to the PCA Parade, and didn't know how to make the engine compartment visible for concours judging (He f_ing won!). Of course it was brand new! Wow, what a devastating win!

Why not just have the contest at the dealership instead? Being able to competitively show a new car seems pretty pointless to me.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I was at the PCA Parade in Boise a couple years back and a guy had his GT2 shipped directly to the grass at the concours. The car was still wrapped in factory plastic. STUPID!!!!!

[GeorgeRud]

The scary part of a PCA concours is that the new, factory wrapped car may not be clean enough for the judges! It's happened before!

[monkeyboy]

The scary part of a PCA concours is that the new, factory wrapped car may not be clean enough for the judges! It's happened before!

But that's NOS factory dust. It can't be replicated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

[roadster fan]

The scary part of a PCA concours is that the new, factory wrapped car may not be clean enough for the judges! It's happened before!

But that's NOS factory dust. It can't be replicated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Brando]

Porsche, although the #1 supplier of race car chassis, still markets heavily their sports-luxury cars.

After the 993 and GT2 (twin turbo) they've gone downhill imho.

[Racer]

Don't forget to thank US and International Governments for requiring "complexity" like

1) Crumple zones
2) Airbags
3) Stability management
4) Emissions requirements

Those 4 items right there are things your 914 can't even come close to matching.

Every make has their fans of certain generations (typically those first seen/driven in the very impressionable teens to twenty's age group.

If I was a 12 year old again I would fawn over the new 911s and Caymans and wonder why anyone would want a 911SC or a 914 or a 356. As someone stated before, change brings progress and that can be scary.

Bottom line is, there are NO simple new cars available to us.

Lets not forget some other "modern" advantages like
1) No more valve adjustments every 3-5K miles
2) Oils and lubricants that will stay IN the motor for 10K miles (makes those $300 oil changes more tolerable when you only need 1/year instead of every 3K miles in a 914 for instance)
3) Smell free, qucik generated HEAT and Airconditioning to remove the sting of bad weather.

Having enjoyed both aircooled and watercooled Porsche versions, I can say that the new cars are Great cars but yes, I missed some of the Porscheness of an "aircooled" car (you know, the noise). But, after being back in a 914 I decided I really need BOTH types (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[scotty b]

MAZDAS RULE !!!!



(IMG:http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/scotb/2fast202furious20S2000.jpg)














I actually agree with Pat. Sorry Andy but Porsche IS NOT what it used to be. It USED to be a sports car. Yes they sdtill make a sports car but it USED to be EVERY Porsche was a dportd car. Bare bones driving. Now they have cup holders, GPS, power everything. I have said for yaers I'd love to see Porsche build a bare bones car again. It would sell. Gauranteed. A real manual transmission, with linkage and a shift LEVER, 250-300 H.P., 2 seats, minor carpeting NO insulation, Manual steering, MAYBE A.C., MAYBE power windows and a radio. Nothing else, just pure driving pleasure. I'd buy it.

[turboman808]

I actually agree with Pat. Sorry Andy but Porsche IS NOT what it used to be. It USED to be a sports car. Yes they sdtill make a sports car but it USED to be EVERY Porsche was a dportd car. Bare bones driving. Now they have cup holders, GPS, power everything. I have said for yaers I'd love to see Porsche build a bare bones car again. It would sell. Gauranteed. A real manual transmission, with linkage and a shift LEVER, 250-300 H.P., 2 seats, minor carpeting NO insulation, Manual steering, MAYBE A.C., MAYBE power windows and a radio. Nothing else, just pure driving pleasure. I'd buy it.

I would absolutely love if they made a 550 spyder to take on the lotus exige. lightweight 4 banger making 300 hp would be sick!!!

Of course they don't so when I want one I will have to get a beck spyder. Which is the way you are gonna have to go to enjoy the tradition but in a new car. It's all about pleasing the lowest common denominator now.

I didn't grow up with classic cars really. I just happen to have found I am very fond of cars pre 1974. The lines, the way they drive(well some of them).

[Brian Mifsud]

I don't contribute very often, but I've been reading the site for years, and have owned Porsches since '87. I understand and appreciate the comments Pat said. I remember distinctly having the same thoughts in the late 80's as I viewed the new 911s at the show and marveled over the futuristic "electronic fuel injection, Mass Air flow style"...

The thing is.. Porsche's evolution and higher levels of complexity are not any different than the rest of the market. My lowly Honda has variable valve timing which was totally unheard of until the mid 80's and then only on the "high end" cars. It really is a marvel to see that most any front wheel drive sedan built today will totally outperform and bury any late 60's muscle car, drag strip, handling, etc.

Once you get into your 'Groove' where you learned your way in and out of any 914 or 60s-70s-early80's 911 you get into a comfort zone. The introduction of microprocessors and the complex mechanical systems they allow takes a great deal of work and training to "stay on top of"... not may people take comfort in doing that..

[AgPete139]

MAZDAS RULE !!!!



(IMG:http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/scotb/2fast202furious20S2000.jpg)

You DO realize that this is a Honda 2000?


I would love to own a 993 someday, but most of yall have to realize:

90% of people use cars for transportation purposes. Not everyone is car crazy like us or enjoy getting grease up to our elbows. Most just want to drive a car, have the prestige and pomp of driving the latest leased Porsche, and just use it as a status symbol these days. Porsche is putting their eggs into a single basket: the high priced consumer end. It keeps the value of the vehicles up by having high sales and few products, and it is still just a business. They are creating a product, and they are producing a top quality race car. Entry level roadsters mean nothing to them, and they have dealerships that can perform all the maintenance required for these vehicles.

Its a transporter for the average American, not you or me. Home mechanics are small fry and get our cars used/pre-owned.

Pat, I feel you. I'm 24 and share your same sentiment. The electronics are inevitable in this Age of Technology, and there will still be ways around the wire clusters and you'll just need to get a feel for what each block of transistors and resistors do.

[zymurgist]

II have said for yaers I'd love to see Porsche build a bare bones car again. It would sell. Gauranteed. A real manual transmission, with linkage and a shift LEVER, 250-300 H.P., 2 seats, minor carpeting NO insulation, Manual steering, MAYBE A.C., MAYBE power windows and a radio. Nothing else, just pure driving pleasure. I'd buy it.

This topic came up about 10 years ago on the corvetteforum. People were speculating about the mysterious new Corvette that was supposed to be a bare-bones, back to basics, lower cost model. (The clean-sheet-of-paper C5 had debuted in '97 with the C5 convertible following the next ymodel year.) Many people made the same point. Everybody wanted a basic stripper model, or so they said. When the car was introduced, guess what... it didn't sell! It was a hardtop coupe with the same powertrain as the base car and a very similar price tag. The hardtop coupes didn't really sell until the Z06 (based on that body style) came out, and of course the Z06 was a higher priced model, even after excluding dealer gouging market adjustments.

I'm gonna sit on my '70 911 for a while, and once I get rid of the Panzer Tank, start beating the bushes for a 914 2.0. Truly the 911 is the most visceral car I've ever owned. Every time I think about selling it, I fire it up and drive around for 1/2 hour and I come to my senses. I'll have my lightweight classics, and when it snows, I'll leave them in the garage and putt around in the Toyota.