Ok, this is my 3000th post. I saved this one because of how Porsche has delivered us "stalwarts" to unneccesary and even "backwoods".

Those of us who own classic 911's and 914's do most of our own work. Why, because the cars are relatively simple. Buy some books & tools - you can do most anything.

About 10 years ago Porsche lost me. They became too complicated to handle for a mere bean counter.

Just recently, I read an article about a 30 year member of PCA who bought a Cayman S,took it to the PCA Parade, and didn't know how to make the engine compartment visible for concours judging (He f_ing won!). Of course it was brand new! Wow, what a devastating win!

My point is - Porsches have become too complicated. Am I a fogey - bet your ass!

I don't want 300 dollar oil changes & transmission complexities that are meant for the track. I want relative simplicity.

I'm pushing retirement (well, actually I retired 5 years ago). I envisioned a 914/6GT or a 911RS as my retirement present to myself. or, just maybe a GT2. They've all priced themselves to levels that I don't want to commit to. May still happen.

But, my biggest problem is that Porsche, in my opinion is NOT Porcshe anymore They want us to "lease" every 4-5 years . The current management does not care about the Porscephiles that made them successful. They are not much different than GM or Ford. Yes, Porsche makles an excellent car, but one that any idiot can drive well. Everything that made a Porsche a car to be mastered has been removed/replaced by electronics.

Porsche is way too concerned with making money ( I wouldn't bitch if I could only buy some stock) and taking control of VW (why?)

Shouldn't they me trying for another entry level Porsche? Say, something around $28K, that an idiot like me could maintain? Nope, they've sold us out!

Yep, I'm pissed!

Pat

ps: Happy 3000th post to me!

Pat,

I feel much the same way you do. One point you made:

> Porsche is way too concerned with making money ( I wouldn't bitch if I could
> only buy some stock) and taking control of VW (why?)

I think the main reason to take control of VW is to buy into the low end of the market and make it feasible for a combined company to meet upcoming EU carbon emission standards. My understanding is that companies like Renault and Fiat won't have much trouble hitting the necessary targets (probably not VW either), but that companies like BMW, Mercedes and Porsche will. This, of course, assumes that the EU carbon quotas will be applied on a corporate basis and not on a model-by-model basis.

Skip

Pat, Porsches are race cars. They always have been. they make race with race blood and to stay competitive against those they are classed with. They simply can't keep it simple. In fact, Porsches have been a little more complicated than most other cars ever since their creation. These engines have always needed more than you every day driver.

Congrats on your 3000th

The older we get, the less are we able to adapt to change. It'll happen to all of us.

What you have to realize, without change, there is no progress ...

The "good old times" are just memories of the past.
If we get stuck living in the past, we miss out on the present and the future.

There certainly is a difference between the pre electronics cars and the modern cars and i agree with you that i like the raw feel of a 914 over most modern cars, however, i do apprechiate modern design and electronics and i for one am actually curious about where all this is going to lead us.
Andy

I remember back at a Porsche Parade when then chairman Peter Schutz said that Porsche would continue to make parts available for all the Porsches built. Boy, that has certainly changed over the years.

The cars are not the same anymore. The engines are not built to be rebuilt, but rather seem to be thrown away (as well as the rest of the car?). At least GM offers reasonably prices crate motors for their cars.

As the cars get more computerized, it makes sense that the electronics will be constantly improved upon quickly, and old parts will not be available. Try to get parts for a 286 chip based computer! I sold a 911 cabriolet that I owned when the relays for the power top became unavailable and hod to scrounge the used market to get the parts to be able to raise the top. That was the moment that I realized that I would keep the 914-6 forever!

The new Porsches may have better numbers than the old ones, but there are none that I would consider anymore. A 911 Speedster or 993 Turbo are the cars that I hope to someday retire with. When air cooling went away, so did my enthusiasm for the new Porsches.

Thanks for listening to my rant!

Pat,

I know what you mean. Perhaps I don't have the years under my belt that you do, but I do have 20 years track experience.

In those 20 years, the technology has been vastly improved. The cars today have a guise of being overly complicated with all the whistles and bells, but they are still cars with 4 wheels, and engine, brakes, etc.

It still requires a great amount of skill to make one of these modern "Porsche" cars go fast around a track. I enjoy running with them on the track with our "vintage" 914. It kind of damages their ego to be passed and run away from such a lowly bastard child such as a 914.

What does (sort of) make me mad is that the newer cars are so good right out of the box, while it has taken us several years and modifications to sort out our car to the point where it is at.


So I don't really agree that anyone can drive the newer cars (or the older cars for that matter) fast or well. It still takes some skill behind the wheel, or you end up with a wadded up car stuffed into a guard rail.

just my $0.02

I don't have near the experience with cars that any of you have, but being 19 and owning 3 cars I have definitley come to like some more then others for certain reasons. The cars i own now are a 96 Grand Prix, 71 Vw Baja Bug, and my newest 72 914/4. I love the bug and the 914 for how well designed they are, nothing is overly complex and can be fixed with your average set of tools, i totally agree with the simplicity arguement, cars are getting extremely complex nowadays. Engineers seem to jam everything into the smallest space they can, and then when the average joe tries to work on the car, they need to buy a whole new tool set just to start the work. I hate driving my Grand Prix because certain things are done for you when you drive, like auto transmission, i want to control the shifts, not some computer. I have not once gotten out of my grand prix and said i want to get back in and keep driving. That happens everytime i get out of the 914 and the VW, they are great cars because they are what(i think) driving is all about. The two cars make driving an experience and adventure, while the Grand Prix makes it a boring task.

I've got out of a few GT3s and wanted to get back in

Why not just have the contest at the dealership instead? Being able to competitively show a new car seems pretty pointless to me.

I was at the PCA Parade in Boise a couple years back and a guy had his GT2 shipped directly to the grass at the concours. The car was still wrapped in factory plastic. STUPID!!!!!

The scary part of a PCA concours is that the new, factory wrapped car may not be clean enough for the judges! It's happened before!

But that's NOS factory dust. It can't be replicated!

Porsche, although the #1 supplier of race car chassis, still markets heavily their sports-luxury cars.

After the 993 and GT2 (twin turbo) they've gone downhill imho.

Don't forget to thank US and International Governments for requiring "complexity" like

1) Crumple zones
2) Airbags
3) Stability management
4) Emissions requirements

Those 4 items right there are things your 914 can't even come close to matching.

Every make has their fans of certain generations (typically those first seen/driven in the very impressionable teens to twenty's age group.

If I was a 12 year old again I would fawn over the new 911s and Caymans and wonder why anyone would want a 911SC or a 914 or a 356. As someone stated before, change brings progress and that can be scary.

Bottom line is, there are NO simple new cars available to us.

Lets not forget some other "modern" advantages like
1) No more valve adjustments every 3-5K miles
2) Oils and lubricants that will stay IN the motor for 10K miles (makes those $300 oil changes more tolerable when you only need 1/year instead of every 3K miles in a 914 for instance)
3) Smell free, qucik generated HEAT and Airconditioning to remove the sting of bad weather.

Having enjoyed both aircooled and watercooled Porsche versions, I can say that the new cars are Great cars but yes, I missed some of the Porscheness of an "aircooled" car (you know, the noise). But, after being back in a 914 I decided I really need BOTH types

MAZDAS RULE !!!!


















I actually agree with Pat. Sorry Andy but Porsche IS NOT what it used to be. It USED to be a sports car. Yes they sdtill make a sports car but it USED to be EVERY Porsche was a dportd car. Bare bones driving. Now they have cup holders, GPS, power everything. I have said for yaers I'd love to see Porsche build a bare bones car again. It would sell. Gauranteed. A real manual transmission, with linkage and a shift LEVER, 250-300 H.P., 2 seats, minor carpeting NO insulation, Manual steering, MAYBE A.C., MAYBE power windows and a radio. Nothing else, just pure driving pleasure. I'd buy it.

I would absolutely love if they made a 550 spyder to take on the lotus exige. lightweight 4 banger making 300 hp would be sick!!!

Of course they don't so when I want one I will have to get a beck spyder. Which is the way you are gonna have to go to enjoy the tradition but in a new car. It's all about pleasing the lowest common denominator now.

I didn't grow up with classic cars really. I just happen to have found I am very fond of cars pre 1974. The lines, the way they drive(well some of them).

I don't contribute very often, but I've been reading the site for years, and have owned Porsches since '87. I understand and appreciate the comments Pat said. I remember distinctly having the same thoughts in the late 80's as I viewed the new 911s at the show and marveled over the futuristic "electronic fuel injection, Mass Air flow style"...

The thing is.. Porsche's evolution and higher levels of complexity are not any different than the rest of the market. My lowly Honda has variable valve timing which was totally unheard of until the mid 80's and then only on the "high end" cars. It really is a marvel to see that most any front wheel drive sedan built today will totally outperform and bury any late 60's muscle car, drag strip, handling, etc.

Once you get into your 'Groove' where you learned your way in and out of any 914 or 60s-70s-early80's 911 you get into a comfort zone. The introduction of microprocessors and the complex mechanical systems they allow takes a great deal of work and training to "stay on top of"... not may people take comfort in doing that..

You DO realize that this is a Honda 2000?


I would love to own a 993 someday, but most of yall have to realize:

90% of people use cars for transportation purposes. Not everyone is car crazy like us or enjoy getting grease up to our elbows. Most just want to drive a car, have the prestige and pomp of driving the latest leased Porsche, and just use it as a status symbol these days. Porsche is putting their eggs into a single basket: the high priced consumer end. It keeps the value of the vehicles up by having high sales and few products, and it is still just a business. They are creating a product, and they are producing a top quality race car. Entry level roadsters mean nothing to them, and they have dealerships that can perform all the maintenance required for these vehicles.

Its a transporter for the average American, not you or me. Home mechanics are small fry and get our cars used/pre-owned.

Pat, I feel you. I'm 24 and share your same sentiment. The electronics are inevitable in this Age of Technology, and there will still be ways around the wire clusters and you'll just need to get a feel for what each block of transistors and resistors do.

This topic came up about 10 years ago on the corvetteforum. People were speculating about the mysterious new Corvette that was supposed to be a bare-bones, back to basics, lower cost model. (The clean-sheet-of-paper C5 had debuted in '97 with the C5 convertible following the next ymodel year.) Many people made the same point. Everybody wanted a basic stripper model, or so they said. When the car was introduced, guess what... it didn't sell! It was a hardtop coupe with the same powertrain as the base car and a very similar price tag. The hardtop coupes didn't really sell until the Z06 (based on that body style) came out, and of course the Z06 was a higher priced model, even after excluding dealer gouging market adjustments.

I'm gonna sit on my '70 911 for a while, and once I get rid of the Panzer Tank, start beating the bushes for a 914 2.0. Truly the 911 is the most visceral car I've ever owned. Every time I think about selling it, I fire it up and drive around for 1/2 hour and I come to my senses. I'll have my lightweight classics, and when it snows, I'll leave them in the garage and putt around in the Toyota.

I have been around Porsche owners since I was 13. I am talking about folks that buy from the dealership, not second hand owners.

None of them worked on their own cars. Even the guys that raced them paid someone to do the work. It is a different mind set, and it has been around since the 1980s, and probably long before that (though I was not around to witness it).

When I started wrenching on cars, it was out of necessity. I was scrounging money to pay rent and keep my gas tank full. One day I was talking to my uncle about it, who is a car guy and has always had a Porsche or Ferrari in his garage. He looked at me and said: "Why would you do work that requires you to get under your car. You pay people to do that."

Porsche has been a luxury sports car brand since forever. The owners that do their own work are the exception, not the rule.

Porsche is selling to their market, and that market pays others to get their hands dirty. It pretty much always has.

Zach

very well said.

As we have been developing the Boxster and 996/7 engines I have become just as thoroughly disgusted with Porsche..

All the plastic engine parts, stupod failures and mickey mouse parts are just like every other disposable car on the planet.

These aren't cars- they are "modes of transportation".. Porsche has made their engines VERY difficult to work with outside the factory and have made it impossible to buy some parts...

Thats forced us to solve their issues without buying a single part from them.... And do a better job.

[quote name='scotty b' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:20 PM' post='1068503']






Scotty;

The fact that you have a photo of this at your fingertips kind of scares me!! The fact that you are calling it a Mazda adds to it.

Wes Vann

[quote name='zymurgist' date='Aug 19 2008, 11:00 AM' post='1068781']
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 18 2008, 09:20 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
II have said for yaers I'd love to see Porsche build a bare bones car again. It would sell. Gauranteed. A real manual transmission, with linkage and a shift LEVER, 250-300 H.P., 2 seats, minor carpeting NO insulation, Manual steering, MAYBE A.C., MAYBE power windows and a radio. Nothing else, just pure driving pleasure. I'd buy it.
[/quote]

This topic came up about 10 years ago on the corvetteforum. People were speculating about the mysterious new Corvette that was supposed to be a bare-bones, back to basics, lower cost model. (The clean-sheet-of-paper C5 had debuted in '97 with the C5 convertible following the next ymodel year.) Many people made the same point. Everybody wanted a basic stripper model, or so they said. When the car was introduced, guess what... it didn't sell! It was a hardtop coupe with the same powertrain as the base car and a very similar price tag. The hardtop coupes didn't really sell until the Z06 (based on that body style) came out, and of course the Z06 was a higher priced model, even after excluding dealer gouging market adjustments.

I'm gonna sit on my '70 911 for a while, and once I get rid of the Panzer Tank, start beating the bushes for a 914 2.0. Truly the 911 is the most visceral car I've ever owned. Every time I think about selling it, I fire it up and drive around for 1/2 hour and I come to my senses. I'll have my lightweight classics, and when it snows, I'll leave them in the garage and putt around in the Toyota.
[/quote]
If i were going to buy a new hotrod it would have to be the a Z06 it will smoke just about anything on the street for half the price...too get that kind of performance out of a german car ya`ll` spend 250K

[quote name='6freak' date='Aug 19 2008, 12:29 PM' post='1068809']
[quote name='zymurgist' date='Aug 19 2008, 11:00 AM' post='1068781']
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 18 2008, 09:20 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
II have said for yaers I'd love to see Porsche build a bare bones car again. It would sell. Gauranteed. A real manual transmission, with linkage and a shift LEVER, 250-300 H.P., 2 seats, minor carpeting NO insulation, Manual steering, MAYBE A.C., MAYBE power windows and a radio. Nothing else, just pure driving pleasure. I'd buy it.
[/quote]

This topic came up about 10 years ago on the corvetteforum. People were speculating about the mysterious new Corvette that was supposed to be a bare-bones, back to basics, lower cost model. (The clean-sheet-of-paper C5 had debuted in '97 with the C5 convertible following the next ymodel year.) Many people made the same point. Everybody wanted a basic stripper model, or so they said. When the car was introduced, guess what... it didn't sell! It was a hardtop coupe with the same powertrain as the base car and a very similar price tag. The hardtop coupes didn't really sell until the Z06 (based on that body style) came out, and of course the Z06 was a higher priced model, even after excluding dealer gouging market adjustments.

I'm gonna sit on my '70 911 for a while, and once I get rid of the Panzer Tank, start beating the bushes for a 914 2.0. Truly the 911 is the most visceral car I've ever owned. Every time I think about selling it, I fire it up and drive around for 1/2 hour and I come to my senses. I'll have my lightweight classics, and when it snows, I'll leave them in the garage and putt around in the Toyota.
[/quote]
If i were going to buy a new hotrod it would have to be the a Z06 it will smoke just about anything on the street for half the price...too get that kind of performance out of a german car ya`ll` spend 250K
[/quote]

I agree. The Boxter should have been 700 lbs lighter 10K cheaper and came with a much simpler and more reliable VW power plant.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...28/newsletter01

[quote name='Wes V' date='Aug 19 2008, 12:22 PM' post='1068804']
[quote name='scotty b' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:20 PM' post='1068503']






Scotty;

The fact that you have a photo of this at your fingertips kind of scares me!! The fact that you are calling it a Mazda adds to it.

Wes Vann
[/quote]


If`n u dont have tits and your drive`n dis your a fag

That's hot.

Lose the wing and paint it British Racing Green and I'd drive it.

Just as Porsche will always have customers that buy the brand-new, all-gizmo-loaded versions of their cars, there will always be the much, much smaller percentage of heritage enthusiasts that will take said car, strip it to it's bones and remake it better, stronger and faster.

The latter usually have more money.

Back when the 356 became the spear carrier for Porsche, that model was a unique, distinctive, efficient (for the era), technologically advanced (for the era), design that appealed to a clientele that could appreciate its strengths, tolerate it shortcomings, admire its engineering excellence, and embrace its aerodynamic shape. Small, fuel efficient engine + unique body design + chassis engineering excellence + fun-to-drive factor + not inconsequential initial price =..........what I thought Porsche should have built (with a performance variant as well as the fuel efficient model).

I don't know about you guys but I see this from another stand point. I hate old Porsches, they have carbs and distributors with points, heaters that ain't worth a dang, tops that leak and so forth and so on. But I do like the look of old Porsches. You can't beat them. Now I love me some modern computer controlled engine systems and chassis engineering. Modern sticky tires, street cars that will easily pull over 1G on the skid pad, etc.

Porsche is in business to make money. Why else are you in business? They make money by selling a lifestyle. That lifestyle does not include changing spark plugs and tweaking the carbs on their product. It is wealthy individuals with plenty of disposable income. That is what they have chosen to market their product to.

Porsche engines are really not that impressive. They don't make that much power and obviously aren't even that durable anymore. I mean look at the failures of the new watercooled motors. Lets even look at the failures of the earlier aircooled motors. How about oil leaks, pulled head studs, failed tensioners, dropped seats, etc. If you look at the Japanese motors compared to anything Porsche offers it is night and day different. Call it boring if you want but the Honda B, C, F, H and K series engines are built better than any Porsche motor outside of the GT1. Any Lexus Motor trumps anything Porsche has on the road as far as reliabilty and quality of engineering. Sorry the Germans just don't have what Germans used to have. They have been surpassed by the Japanese and even the Americans in some cases.

Lets see a Porsche go 264K original miles like my Accord has with the AC still blowing snow. The Porsche will die a horrible death. The motor will grenade and the electrics will crap out.

Lets see a Porsche go 264K 420,000 original miles like my Accord old Dodge Neon has with the AC still blowing snow.

Herein lies the problem with modern times. Everyone is just out to "make money". That is why you have so few true "craftsmen" anymore. What about your true calling? Do we raise our kids to gro up and "make money" or do we want them to pursue their vocation, or dreams? I decry the disposable lifestyles that is pushed upon us, and I think Porsche has embraced this. It used to be the family car was part of the family in American culture, now it is changed out every few years. Disposable is ok for things like toilet paper, but look at how many houses are built today with the disposable mindset - and think long term what does that do to community! Porsche used to really inspire me, because it was built on engineering - and tradition.

I not a trained mechanic. I do it just for fun. I have owned or driven many different porsches. I currently have a 996 and 914. After driving most of the porsche examples from the past 20years, there is no question that the 996 is by far the best example to that date. I do all of my own work on the 914 and 996. The 996 is extremely easy to work on- even major issues. The $200 oil changes are only once every 15k or 1 year- if you do it yourself, you can do it for $50. If you add up the filter price and oil price for one year on any other car, it adds up to about $200 or more if the dealer was to do the work.

I agree with the issues about prosche being out for money however that is obvious becasue they are a business trying to make money. The current cars are excellent and just getting better. This is coming from an owner of the new and old porsches- not somebody who just read articles about the cars.

Pat, I understand your woes...I'm retired as well and have been working on cars most of my life. I don't enjoy working on new cars and in fact usually buy an extended warranty so I don't have too. Hell, you need a factory computer hookup to diagnose anything anyway.

If you notice, the days of kids hot rodding their cars has come to an end. Smog laws and computer games have taken care of that. Now hot-rodding is sticking a 4 inch exhaust on a Honda! Many kids these days can't change their own oil or for that matter even know what a dip stick is.

My best friend teaches engine rebuilding at a local college and tells me the students coming in these days are dismal, unmotivated and know almost nothing about a car. This has been going on for a long time and now most adults are the same.

What does all this mean? Manufacturers are just providing our society with what they want (and what will sell)....Comfortable couches with engines. We're stuck with it. Best to age gracefully doing what you want......enjoy!

Hey, they will only have factory dirt on them once. Once you wash it off, its gone...

Pat and all,
I had a very interesting conversation with Hans Peter Porsche at Parade this year. We had dinner together one night and he told me some great history about Porsche the company, and the Porsche family.... Back in 1993, Porsche almost went bankrupt. That was at a time when Porsche's were not really complicated, fairly "manual" except for mandated emissions stuff, etc. The "family" decided to give it one last go at it and NOT be bought out by the 3 different offers they had on the table. The decision was made that in order to survive, they had to start producing what the market wanted, and let go of the old hand-made way of doing things.

This story is much longer and much more complex, but the gist of it is that the world was changing and in order to survive, Porsche needed to change with it. If they didn't, Porsche would not exist right now, period.

Also, keep in mind, Porsche has always been advanced in engineering. In today's terms, early Porsches are simple, but back when they were all new, they were way more advanced than whatever was out at the time. An early 911 engine is more complex than a '60's Chevy small block for example.

When the 993's came out, they were really advanced, and very complicated compared to say a 3.2 Carrera. "Only the dealers can work on them now" was what we all heard. Well, now years later, even I can work on my 993, and I'm not a mechanic. Harder than my 914? Yes, but my refrigerator is more complex than a 1971 ice box too..... it's all relative.

the great thing about Porsches is that you can still find, and enjoy, the old cars, or you can enjoy the new ones. I read somewhere that a higher percentage of all Porsches ever built are still running compared to other car companies. I believe that....for as few early cars were built, I see many more of them than even early Chevy's - and I live in Nascar country that "don't take too kindly to them there European cars".

Porsche the company has evolved with the times, and has been able to stay around. I own 4 914's, a '69 911, a 95 993 cab, and I really want a GT3. I appreciate and enjoy the older cars, I love the 993, but I am also excited about the GT3. go figure....

anyway, my 2 cents fwiw.

(oh, and keep in mind, way back then we didn't have 914world.com for you to get your 3000th post and vent to the world!!)

I love this thread for the passion and debate it stirs in me. Yes, I hate the new cars.. but at the same time I love them. Yes I wish they were all aircooled and simple to maintain. Then I drive one and appreciate how fantastic a watercooled 911/Boxster is. Then I get intimidated about all the plastics and electronics.. Then I look at my 914, with its FI and think yeash... why so complicated!

I love the old cars for their sound and beautiful designs. I love the new cars for there sheer performance and brilliance. I've had the pleasure to grow up around and be offered to drive nearly ever porsche model from 356 to 997. They are all fantastic cars. I've enjoyed each cars driving experience.

Some bemoan the lack of a "cheap" porsche. Others think a cheap one will hurt the "brand". Maybe Porsche will share a VW platform and motors and build a new "entry level car".. but why? Where is the profit for them? The 914-6 died due to poor economics... not because it was a bad car.

A new 2.7 Boxster puts out 245hp and gets 28mpg highway. The vaunted '73RS 2.7 was rated at 210hp and didn't get 28mpg.. and it sure didn't run as cleanly either.. The 914 of 1970 was approx $4k. The Boxster of today is $45K. I imagine that, in real dollars, the price hasn't changed much. Gas was $.40 and now its $4. The house that was $20K is now $200K (or more?) The base Boxster is way more car than a base 914 ever was or could be.

As for a 2000lb modern Porsche, it can't be done without extensive use of aluminum (or extreme cheapness, ala an economy car) and aluminum is VERY expensive to build with AND repair. Look at an Elise. a 5mph impact on either end of the car can be a $5K experience!

Thanks for letting me ramble