Painting questions, order of operations for a long restore Options

[obscurity]

I have been looking for the appropriate order fo oprerations to use as I restore my car. It will be a long process of fixing one area priming and moving on. My understanding right now is as follows(I encourage any comments):

These steps are during the fixing process:
1. Rust convertor (Ospho or POR15) (will these work under epoxy primer?)
2. Epoxy Primer (may not go well over ospho - should this be a rattle can of etching primer if so who makes a good one? (A rattle can would make things easier since I am doing small areas and I don't want to load up a paint gun every time I need to spray a few square feet)

Then once every thing is fixed:
3. Sand/media/baking soda blast car (leaning toward baking soda)
4. Etching wash primer (is this necessary if I blast the car)
5. Epoxy Primer
6. Basecoat (thinking of using Deltron 2000 but not really sure if PPG is the right answer)
7. Clearcoat

Does this look overly complicated?
Is PPG a good brand? I have also looked at Sikkens but can't find much about their options on their web page.

I have been reading many of the popular rustorations posts but it is often hard to follow what order they are doing things in.


Any help will be greatly appreciated,

[McMark]

You will not get any significant rust in the repaired areas. Leave them bare. Painting primer on, to sand it off later is just a waste of time and money. Paint chemical incompatibilities are a real problem, and any rattle can primer left over or missed can cause fish eyes in the paint.

[SirAndy]

1. Rust convertor (Ospho or POR15) (will these work under epoxy primer?)

POR15 is NOT a rust converter!!!!

Their 'Metal Ready' product is similar to Ospho.

I used POR15 with very mixed results, i don't think i will ever use it again on any of my cars. It does not work as advertised and i would certainly not try to paint over it ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

[charliew]

True on the rattle can paint. Just spray a metal prep on the bare metal and rewipe it if a small amount of rust reappears. You could put epoxy primer on it but you will need to scuff it and apply some more when you start the bodywork. DO NOT put por15 on it on the outside where it will be covered with a shiney top coat. Maybe the inside tub after a marine clean type wash and rinse and then some ospho followed by a rinse.

Eastwood just came out with a spray on phosporic coating and they have a video showing it's use. I think it's called After Blast, it comes in gallons. The video is showing it used on a bare frame and thats a good place to use it. I'm not sure about under primers and sealers and top coats but it seems like a good product even for the top side.

Be careful on wiping blasted metal that the rag doesn't hang it's fibers and leave lint on the metal surface and you paint over it.

[scotty b]

2 options for a proper job

1: strip, etch, seal, bondo, seal

2: strip, bondo, epoxy ( OR strip, epoxy, bondo )

I wouldn't bother with ospho on the exteriror if you are stripping the car bare. It is only usefull to spray in hard to reach areas.


Yes PPG is a fine product. You can do either of these ways one panel at a time. It will jst get nerve racking constantly, taping off the car, mixing paint, cleaning guns, etc. etc. etc

[Tom_T]

2 options for a proper job

1: strip, etch, seal, bondo, seal

2: strip, bondo, epoxy ( OR strip, epoxy, bondo )

I wouldn't bother with ospho on the exteriror if you are stripping the car bare. It is only usefull to spray in hard to reach areas.


Yes PPG is a fine product. You can do either of these ways one panel at a time. It will jst get nerve racking constantly, taping off the car, mixing paint, cleaning guns, etc. etc. etc

Scotty - I've read in some of the Hemmings & other publications write-ups on resto's that an etching primer is the preferable way to go (but more costly) - why is that better? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

... is it giving a rough surface to hold the primer better, etching off rust, both, or ???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[obscurity]

2 options for a proper job

1: strip, etch, seal, bondo, seal

2: strip, bondo, epoxy ( OR strip, epoxy, bondo )

I wouldn't bother with ospho on the exteriror if you are stripping the car bare. It is only usefull to spray in hard to reach areas.


Yes PPG is a fine product. You can do either of these ways one panel at a time. It will jst get nerve racking constantly, taping off the car, mixing paint, cleaning guns, etc. etc. etc

Great info from everyone Thanks!

Scotty b,
If I am working in the wheel wells and can not be 100% sure I got all the surface rust (I will try to get it all but...) is it a good idea to use ospho before the etch? or will they just react with each other? Is there a rattle can etch that is acceptable for use with PPG. I have not been able to find anythiing on the web.

Thanks for your help,

[bobhasissues]

No offense intended, but if you want to do a good job, you need to take a step back and do some more homework before you get into this.
Ospho, Metal Ready and other acids will etch. The etching primer is redundant. Go to a paint shop and explain what you are attempting to do, they will set you up with what you need. And, from my own experience, doing things piecemeal and dragging out the resto will double your cost and probably diminish your end results. I say this because I have experienced it. If you are intending to repaint panel by panel with metallic, the panel will never match. Please, for your own good, stop now and rethink this.

[PRS914-6]

Blast the car first
prime immediately to prevent rust
repair what you find as time allows (prime as you complete)
body work (prime as you complete)
prime, seal, paint

Blasting first exposes all the bad spots that may not show up with paint on it and also removes the rust so that you aren't trying to paint over rust.

Do it right once and you'll never regret it.

See This thread

Do a search for "blast"

[obscurity]

No offense intended, but if you want to do a good job, you need to take a step back and do some more homework before you get into this.
Ospho, Metal Ready and other acids will etch. The etching primer is redundant. Go to a paint shop and explain what you are attempting to do, they will set you up with what you need. And, from my own experience, doing things piecemeal and dragging out the resto will double your cost and probably diminish your end results. I say this because I have experienced it. If you are intending to repaint panel by panel with metallic, the panel will never match. Please, for your own good, stop now and rethink this.

My goal right now was to repair the obvious rust (hell hole, firewall, floors) and then get the repairs protected. Once that was done (which may take years at the rate I'm moving) blast the car, repair any aditional issue I might find and repaint the whole thing in one shot.

I do like PRS914-6's idea of blasting it all now but at least in the short term I am trying to spand as little as I can (with the economy in the toilet and a limited number of people coming to request my services).

[Tom_T]

No offense intended, but if you want to do a good job, you need to take a step back and do some more homework before you get into this.
Ospho, Metal Ready and other acids will etch. The etching primer is redundant. Go to a paint shop and explain what you are attempting to do, they will set you up with what you need. And, from my own experience, doing things piecemeal and dragging out the resto will double your cost and probably diminish your end results. I say this because I have experienced it. If you are intending to repaint panel by panel with metallic, the panel will never match. Please, for your own good, stop now and rethink this.

My goal right now was to repair the obvious rust (hell hole, firewall, floors) and then get the repairs protected. Once that was done (which may take years at the rate I'm moving) blast the car, repair any aditional issue I might find and repaint the whole thing in one shot.

I do like PRS914-6's idea of blasting it all now but at least in the short term I am trying to spand as little as I can (with the economy in the toilet and a limited number of people coming to request my services).

Not a bad approach on the rustoration parts a bit at a time (I've been doing similar) - I think he just meant not to paint it final bit by bit, which I don't think you meant anyway.

IMHO - I would not blast the whole car now/first - but rather do as you planned - the known rust areas first & use a protective rust inhibiting primer to "hold" those areas as you work around the car over time (maybe a long time), then do the soda/media blast (or paint stripper) to the whole car to uncover any further issues, old bondo, etc.; repair those - then you can etch prime & paint the whole car in one shot (well several "shots" - 1 per each coat) as you'd planned.

On the blast, you want to use soda for most of it to pull off the paint - after you do your main rusto repairs as you noted - then go with a not too coarse walnut or similar soft media to remove rust found under the paint. As I understand it - sode will remove paint without harming rubber, plastic, chrome, etc. but it a PITA to clean out of every nook-n-cranny - but it won't remove the rust, whereas the media blast to the specific rusted areas will blast the rust to bare metal. However, the sand, glass, plastic bead media will tend to warp the panels.

You can get less expensive soda blast set-ups to do yours yourself, if you can clean up, and those may take media too for the rust areas.

Others swear by aircraft or other paint stripp as easier for home use, but the stripper can get into the nooks & crannies & prevent the paint & primer from sticking there.

So there's pros & cons to both methods - whether it's stripper or media/sode in the nooks, crannies, down your B-crack, etc.!

Also of note - if you're not doing a metaillic 2 or 3 step paint (base-clear or base-top-clear), then it's a lot easier to match with a solid color,such as the Bahia Red (??) I see in your avitar. .... plus the old paints on them in solid colors were not clear coated back in the day.

From what shop guys & folks on here have told me, PPG is a good paint, as is Dupont, as well as Glasurit (PPG owned), Sekunds (sp?), & some others.

Good paint color links here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...f=2&t=39488
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...f=2&t=60531

Post progress pix here for all to see plz!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[SirAndy]

Any primer you put on now will have to be removed before painting if you indeed wait months (or years) between primer and paint.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

[PRS914-6]

Any primer you put on now will have to be removed before painting if you indeed wait months (or years) between primer and paint.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

Andy, my 914 was blasted and primed and not painted for 9 months. The 911 for my daughter was blasted and primed 6 months before paint. No issues

I'm not a painter but we used a good epoxy primer on it 10 minutes after blasting it. The painter insisted that the dangers of finger prints, sweat, moisture and rust formation was far worse than the primer. Most of it gets sanded off anyway during the blocking\body work process and many more coats are sprayed to get it flat.

Something has to be applied to protect the work long term. If not primer, what?

[SirAndy]

Most of it gets sanded off anyway during the blocking\body work process

Well, isn't that what i said?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy

[PRS914-6]

Most of it gets sanded off anyway during the blocking\body work process

Well, isn't that what i said?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy

Well, kinda....but the words "any" and "have to" indicated to me that you can't leave any old primer on. I was trying to make the point that plenty of old primer was left on mine without any problems, perhaps because of a quality primer.

Yeah I know...German is much easier...

I would be curious what the painters said about this topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[scotty b]

Most of it gets sanded off anyway during the blocking\body work process

Well, isn't that what i said?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy

Well, kinda....but the words "any" and "have to" indicated to me that you can't leave any old primer on. I was trying to make the point that plenty of old primer was left on mine without any problems, perhaps because of a quality primer.

Yeah I know...German is much easier...

I would be curious what the painters said about this topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

I have been driving my 944 for 4 years with nothing but primer on it. I work on the roof as I find time and reprime it. Roof gets done first so I can have something to show people other than pictures. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) A perfect black paint job speaks volumes, because few take the time or have the knowledge to do it right.

There is no need to remove primer if it sits, provided it is a GOOD primer, not cheap crap.

Spray cans are a no-no. They are junk.

Oshpo doesn't need to be etched over.

Fuck POR-15

The etching primer ( Spies Hecker ) I use has chemicals that do the same thing as Ospho and is compatible with the primer I put over it. I have also etched a Jeep hood with it and let it sit outside for over 5 years now with NOTHING else on it and the has has yet to rust.

Spies etch is also weldable, I spray it inside any cavities I am enclosing before and after welding the new part on.

Cheap primers left on a car over time WILL absorb water and create more issues then they solve.

Did I miss anything ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[charliew]

Nope. I didn't know spies hecker etch is a weldable primer. Thanks

I usually put a dp type primer on after I have bare clean metal to later do bodywork over but I still worry about the inside corners ares and in the little areas just beside the overlaying pieces of spotwelded panels not holding the paint as well as if it were the first coat if I don't get it all scuffed good.

When we used laquer you could just shoot a thin coat of laquer thinner on the jams and such and the new paint would stick real good to the old softened original paint if you missed scuffing a spot.

[pete-stevers]

i had no idea por 15 was so poorly recieved!
It is to bad....i used all over the box on my single cab
scuffing and priming it is not a good idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)