Engine upgrade options Options

[patssle]

I might be interesting in taking out the engine of my car and swapping with something better sometime down the road in the future. Currently it's an old VW bus motor, no horsepower, some ok torque in 1st and 2nd, but nothing after that.

I did some searching, and came across a few threads - but are there any good previous threads or articles out there that touch on each engine option available to upgrade to in the 914? Cost, benefits, pros/cons, etc. I know there was a poll once asking which upgrade to do - but could not find it.

Thanks!

[Mike Bellis]

Check out Renegade Hybrids and Kenedy Engineered Products. You can put just about any engine you can think of in a 914. Mine is a small block chevy. Of course you can put in a big Raby type 4 engine too or a radical 3.6 911 engine. All depends on your budget.

My engine is fuel injected and super reliable. I have driven it from Los Angeles to San Francisco to Tahoe to Napa to Monterey to... Anywhere. It does not overheat and gets 20mpg on the freeway. I even commute in it sometimes.

[Spoke]

Like in racing, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

The easiest upgrade and maybe cheapest upgrade is to the 2.0L Type IV engine from the 73-74 vintage 914's. Best if you can find one with original fuel injection.

Bigger T4's can be found/built for more money. T4's drop right in with little mods to the chassis/electrical system.

[patssle]

Like in racing, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

The easiest upgrade and maybe cheapest upgrade is to the 2.0L Type IV engine from the 73-74 vintage 914's. Best if you can find one with original fuel injection.

Bigger T4's can be found/built for more money. T4's drop right in with little mods to the chassis/electrical system.

Cost is what I'm trying to figure out - what are the typical costs for each engine upgrade option? Finding the best power to cost ratio is ideal - the sweet spot so to speak.

[Bleyseng]

1973-74 2.0L FI engines used are around for $1000-1500 complete for 95hp.

A hot 2056cc with a Raby cam is a sweet engine with FI and its 115hp easy plus its way more fun...cost is up to you....

[Jake Raby]

First;
For budget double what you intend to spend, then add 10% and you'll have a close estimate of what it'll end up costing at the end of the day. Thats reality.

The first decision you have to make is if you are building this car for you only, or if you'll be selling it some day. If its being sold you'll have to think about what a buyer with a REAL wallet might be looking for, not just what you are looking for. This is the reason why cars can be bought for generally less money than they can be built for. People never consider next week, next year or etc.

The next decision is whether you are willing to bastardize the car at the compromise of cheaper performance. If you are willing to do that, go ahead and consider a SBC or Suby. Don't consider the TIV at all, just pull the original engine and sell it as a core for someone to transplant into a VW, as they'll appreciate what you discard and it'll be put to good use.

If you want to keep the aircooled character, something that differentiates the 914 more than any other vehicle you can be prepared to spend the required amount of money to do this correctly. Doing this will keep the car unaltered from its original state and after 20 more years the car will be a more respected offering to those who appreciate Porsches for aircooled character. As other cars are chopped up, sacrificed and bastardized the OE cars will become more of a dying breed..

I have no idea what it cost to bastardize a 914, either doing it sloppily or correctly, but I do know what it costs to add power to the original engine that doesn't compromise the car.. See below:
Basic rebuild using piece meal parts-3K

Performance engine of 120-140HP=-5-6K

Performance engine of 125HP using stock FI (based on one of my kits built by you)-
5K for the complete kit, 1500.00 in ancillaries

Performance engine of 150-165HP using carbs (based on one of my kits built by you)-
6K for the kit, 2500.00 in ancillaries

RAT Turn Key engine making 125HP using stock FI- 8-9K dyno tuned

RAT Turn Key engine making 140-185HP using carbs- 10-12K dyno tuned

RAT Turn Key 200HP+= 12-15K and beyond for exotics.

These are just some offerings and most of those that share our level of engine completion and components share the same pricing for complete engines. Other shops that focus on nothing except volume and sales will sell you a turn key engine for 1/2 the cost of the prices I posted and you will get exactly what you have paid for.

You can go most other routes for less money, but how much YOU value the car makes the biggest impact on how much you consider VALUE over the long term. Price and value are far from the same thing, most don't realize that until hindsight becomes 20/20.

When I decided that I wanted a watercooled 914, I just bought a Boxster.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jul 7 2010, 09:56 AM

[BigDBass]

First;
For budget double what you intend to spend, then add 10% and you'll have a close estimate of what it'll end up costing at the end of the day. Thats reality.

Basic rebuild using piece meal parts-3K

Performance engine of 120-140HP=-5-6K

Performance engine of 125HP using stock FI (based on one of my kits built by you)-
5K for the complete kit, 1500.00 in ancillaries

Performance engine of 150-165HP using carbs (based on one of my kits built by you)-
6K for the kit, 2500.00 in ancillaries

RAT Turn Key engine making 125HP using stock FI- 8-9K dyno tuned

RAT Turn Key engine making 140-185HP using carbs- 10-12K dyno tuned

RAT Turn Key 200HP+= 12-15K and beyond for exotics.

Thanks Jake, that may be the best summary of RAT possibilities I've seen!
So when budgeting for one of these, does that "double + 10%" guideline still apply? (Not asked in jest.)



Generally speaking, with originality and future value in mind when planning a performance Type IV rebuild, is an owner better off rebuilding the numbers-matched original engine (if healthy) or sourcing a different core and storing the original engine?

[jmill]

A flat six conversion done right (some believe conversions are never right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) ) is expensive.

I'm building one now and figured it would cost me around 10K. I was wrong. It'll cost close to that just for the engine. Add oil tank, exhaust, oil lines and cooler, brake and suspension upgrades, tires, flares, throttle and trans cable/linkage, axles and CV's just to name some off the top of my head. It adds up real quick.

A big four is by far the best bang for the buck.

All of us have opinions. Don't let others sway yours with words like "sacrificed, compromised and bastardized." How many older 911s are getting converted to the 3.6? How many Chevelles and Novas are driving around with the original straight 6's or 305's? I don't see guys telling those folks they should have stuck with the original 6 and three on the tree.

Do what you want to do. It's your car not theirs. I felt the 914 should have never come from the factory with the four. If you were born with a wart on your nose wouldn't you cut it off? There, that's my opinion. You'll get 100 others.

[patssle]

Here's my thinking on the car. My DD is a Mazda 3.

I would love the Nissan 370z as a 2nd car. Great car for 30k. Plus maintenance, tires, and insurance. So I can spend ~40k on a sports car.

Or...I can spend, 5k, 10k, 15k on the 914 and have something special - and a sports car for considerably less - with low insurance costs. I don't really have a set budget - I'm more in mind of what is worth it. I don't care about selling price.

I don't want 90 hp. I don't need a 3.6L. Do I want to spend 15k? Preferably not. But if you could tell me I can get 150-200 hp with 10k in cash...that would be thought provoking. Staying aircooled would be nice, but not required.

I found a couple 3.2 aircooled engines going for 5k-7k on ebay. Is that normal price? What would the final tally roughly come out for those?

[JmuRiz]

A million different options out there, but remember the one thing about the RAT motors, they are NEW motors/parts.

If you buy a 3.2 or 3.6, you'll have to do a rebuild to get them to the same level of 'newness' that's $$$ along with the other bits to do a conversion.

A ~$10k big hp large 4 is the best bang for the buck, even if it doesn't seem like it when writing the big check (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[patssle]

Thanks for the info Jake. Checked out your website, interesting stuff.

So basically for your "RAT Turn Key engine making 140-185HP using carbs- 10-12K dyno tuned", the customer provides the 2.0 914 engine, and you turn it into that? I might of missed it, is there a page on your website that explains what you do to the engine?

[Jake Raby]

All of us have opinions. Don't let others sway yours with words like "sacrificed, compromised and bastardized."

Like I stated, if you will NEVER sell the car and know that you'll NEVER be in a position where you'd HAVE to sell the car the resale possibilities and the future may not matter. The fact is in some way the smart person building a custom vehicle of any kind must at least consider who else may share their same wants and desires when building a car.

Hell, I know I am not going to live in my current house forever, so when Beth and I remodeled the entire place ourselves we took into consideration what other people might want as well, not just what I wanted or she wanted at this particular moment. I even thought about what I thought people might want in 3-5 years when we do sell it.

Originality seems to stay in style with Porsches and other vehicles as well, thats something that can also be added to, but sometimes you' can't ever go back there once "bastardized" enough..

I deal with folks who are making decisions about their investment and whats the best bang for the buck today and tomorrow all the time. As conversions have become more of an attraction in recent time I deal with more of the questions. people have told me their reasons for staying /4 and thats generally for the simplicity and ability to make very few modifications to optimize the package, generally meaning the vehicle is unaltered. The vehicle retains its character that differentiates it from others and according to what engine is applied it might even become a little more special than any other 4 cylinder. It might even dust a -6 or have people assume that it is a -6 because its so blistering fast.

How many older 911s are getting converted to the 3.6?

....and how many 356s are being converted to TIV power? We'be built 1/2 dozen this year already. I am sorry, but converting a 914 to a -6 or converting a 356 to a TIV is much different than applying a SBC V8 into a 911. Who wants those cars? They are not generally (and historically) Porsche enthusiasts.

How many Chevelles and Novas are driving around with the original straight 6's or 305's?

How many have Jaguar engines installed?? How many have Suby engines installed? A suby makes more power today as a -6 than most SBC engines do and can be installed for 1/2 the price, but do you see that? Don't see a lot of "cross-dressing" in other markets.

I don't see guys telling those folks they should have stuck with the original 6 and three on the tree.

Nope and its absolutely fine and dandy if they throw another engine of the same "breed" in place to be bigger and faster. The difference is a 6 cylinder American car was just a cheaper version of that same car in V8 form, change the motor mounts, front springs and maybe the bellhouse and the V8 will drop right in.

Guess what, thats just like putting a big TIV into a 356, which is generally a welcomed thing for all but the most rare cars and is becoming a mainstream conversion for those who want to drive their cars.

Do what you want to do. It's your car not theirs.

Until one day when you decide to sell it to one of "them", whether you want to or not. The actions that are taken now directly impact those who may be interested in the car in 10 or 20 years and unfortunately things pop up that require cars to be sold at times and when that happens you want something desirable by the crowd that still has money and is willing to spend it. The economy we are seeing now has proven that, those with money today have it because they didn't make lousy decisions and didn't over commit when most everyone else did. They are still spending it, we are busier than ever!

This group of people is who you want to have appreciate your car if it ever needs to be liquidated without a loss and done quickly.

So what "they" think doesn't matter until the money in "their" wallet needs to fill yours.

I felt the 914 should have never come from the factory with the four

.
....and I feel that they should have never had anything else.

If you were born with a wart on your nose wouldn't you cut it off?

Unless that "wart" or imperfection builds some character... or is memorable in some way to a particular group.. Cindy Crawford and Marilyn Monroe could have had cosmetic surgery to remove certain "trademarks", but neither did..

There, that's my opinion. You'll get 100 others.

And theres mine...

A -6 conversion keeps character and adds to a 914s value in the eyes of the right people.. The -6 conversion will always be accepted by those who will spend the price of admission for a nice 914, just like a properly sorted and equipped-4 914 down the road.

Now I'll answer some questions that were posed:

So basically for your "RAT Turn Key engine making 140-185HP using carbs- 10-12K dyno tuned", the customer provides the 2.0 914 engine, and you turn it into that?

Yes. The engine is 100% complete, dyno tuned and needs no break in period.

I might of missed it, is there a page on your website that explains what you do to the engine?

'
The engine is completely reconstructed with all original flaws addressed and then its properly made more "healthy". It comes in a crate so complete that if fuel, ignition and a starter was attached that it would fire up and run while sitting in the crate. I have had customers test fire engines in their crates before!

There is no page to describe what we do to every engine, because each is different- these aren't cookie cutters that are kept on a shelf. No two engines come to us needing the same items addressed. No two purchasers have the same set of desires, so we build and design engines based on wants, needs and what the application demands. Today about every component internally is replaced except the crankcase and crank gears, to include crank, heads, cam, lifters and etc. On the outside we reuse sheet metal, but its powdercoated. Its as close to "NEW" as is possible.

I don't want 90 hp. I don't need a 3.6L. Do I want to spend 15k? Preferably not. But if you could tell me I can get 150-200 hp with 10k in cash...that would be thought provoking

.
You can do 150HP for that price, because the sub systems required to meet the engine's capabilities are much less. On the other hand 200HP is another ball game, the required exhaust currently costs near 2K, but I am working to ensure thats a thing of the past and we are close right now.

150HP is what the 914 responds best to, it requires no tranny mods and no crazy brake mods to maintain a well balanced package. More power than 150 generally can't be used and is good for nothing more than bragging rights for a street vehicle. Keep the car simple, keep it light and nimble and keep it mostly original.

Staying aircooled would be nice, but not required.

Thats the mindset that most have... You can take many routes with less expense, but some things are worth so much more in the long run

A ~$10k big hp large 4 is the best bang for the buck, even if it doesn't seem like it when writing the big check

Who ever thought that one day that would be a true statement?? It took well over a decade of application for a lot of people to open their eyes to this reality.

Thanks Jake, that may be the best summary of RAT possibilities I've seen!
So when budgeting for one of these, does that "double + 10%" guideline still apply? (Not asked in jest.)

No, since we know what it takes to produce the engine and know what hidden costs are related to it's installation lots of those variables are no longer. I know what it takes to make my engine live, the same things that I equipped it with during testing an application in my own vehicle over and over again.. I have one car that has had more than 80 engines installed into it.

[patssle]

When ya'll say "big hp large 4", what is that? What you're doing to the exhisting 2.0?

/Car noob, which is why I was looking for an article or post that explains all the engine options and what it involves for a car-idiot.

[Jake Raby]

I use an existing 1.7/1.8 or 2.0 for a base engine, all are acceptable at our level of preparation.

You need to do lots of homework.. Spend 6+ months educating yourself before you buy anything. All the info necessary is here on this forum, my forums and others.. Just read and take notes, that makes the phone call you'll schedule with me one day much, much easier and more effective.

[patssle]

Oh absolutely, I'm still early in the research phase. Won't even be thinking of buying for many months.

Was just looking for pointers to good articles/posts. Searching, which I'm doing, isn't perfect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[budman5201]

Subie ez30r 6

3.0 liter 206 hp 178 torque at the wheels, next conversion is the subie 3.6. Still have to figure out the exhaust vvt timing but it's about 35 hp more and 40 lbs higher torque.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLTLXkQirYM

[Mike Bellis]

You could do a 200-300HP Chevy conversion for $5-6K. Subie would be a little more. Rotary power can also be done around the same price.

I really like Raby's motors but they are still a little fragile compared to my V8 and by the time you get 200HP out of them they are very radical and don't have the same street manners as mine. If you are going to stay with a T4 engine, go with Raby's!

A bone stock chevy v8 can do 200hp and you can get one from Craigs List cheap. The engine adapter kit from Renegade will run you around $2k. You will need a radiator, Aluminum from Ebay $200. Misc other parts will run $500-1000. So this is just one option.

With a Subie (awesome!) you will spend $4-5K just on the engine (turbo), less if you just buy and old Outback and strip it. Adapter kit also available from Renegade. Even the transaxle can be retrofitted into a 914. A member here sells axle hub adapters.

I'm thinking of swaping to a 20B Rotary twin turbo (RX-7). 290hp stock at 8500rpm and 265 Ft lbs at 6500rpm. These engines can turn over 10000rpm. The engine itself is no bigger than (possibly smaller) your stock 914 engine. I would be able to drop 500 pounds of dead weight if I go this route. V8 weighs 800lbs

One more cool option is a 2000ish VW Passat Turbo. You can find them cheap. The engine and transaxle can both be installed in a 914. This will give you modern EFI and a modern shifting tranny. You can get a nice one for $4k than you just have to fab mounting brackets and do some minor wiring and fuel line work. You can also use similar year Audi's for the same swap but the prices are a little higher.

[patssle]

A bone stock chevy v8 can do 200hp and you can get one from Craigs List cheap. The engine adapter kit from Renegade will run you around $2k. You will need a radiator, Aluminum from Ebay $200. Misc other parts will run $500-1000. So this is just one option.

I've read all that extra weight from the v8 kinda messes with the handling of the car. Any thoughts on that?

[budman5201]

A bone stock chevy v8 can do 200hp and you can get one from Craigs List cheap. The engine adapter kit from Renegade will run you around $2k. You will need a radiator, Aluminum from Ebay $200. Misc other parts will run $500-1000. So this is just one option.

I've read all that extra weight from the v8 kinda messes with the handling of the car. Any thoughts on that?

It's like having a contestant from the Biggest loser in your passenger seat and trying to take fast turns....woo hoo! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Subie 6 weighs 320 lbs vs 800 for the v8

[Mike Bellis]

A bone stock chevy v8 can do 200hp and you can get one from Craigs List cheap. The engine adapter kit from Renegade will run you around $2k. You will need a radiator, Aluminum from Ebay $200. Misc other parts will run $500-1000. So this is just one option.

I've read all that extra weight from the v8 kinda messes with the handling of the car. Any thoughts on that?

The V8 weighs 400 pounds more, an all aluminum block and heads would weigh about the same as a T4. You will also add some weight in the front with the radiator. You will need stiffer springs in the rear. The front to rear bias slightly changes but it will still handle better than 90% of the cars on the road.

My car has 930 Turbo suspension and brakes with 200lb springs in the rear. It handles great. Very predictable! It will out handle my 911 widebody and most 914's.