Galvanized Steel Options

[bulitt]

Did you all know that Galvanized paint was invented back in 1830's, and galvanized metal has been discovered on some armor used in India in the 1700's! So I am assuming it was cost prohibited in the 1970's? Or was the steel used on the 914's galvanized but maybe the technique was not perfected. American cars were built with a predetermined life (planned obsolescence) so the consumer would buy new every several years. Porsche too? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Or maybe they were designed to be bio-degradable, a green product...

[Tom_T]

Porsche started hot dipping their cars in 1976 (not sure if it was only 77 MY 911/912E/924 or if 76 build 76 MY 911/912E as well), which unfortunately just missed ALL MYs of 914s, because the 76 MY 914s were actually built in the 1975 calendar year. I believe it was a matter of not adding to the overall production costs, lack of customer demand &/or knowledge about the benefits, unavailability of the materials &/or processes/machinery as a result of post-WWII shortages, the lack of European countries using salt on their roads in most cases during that period, or a combination of these.

Remember that German industrial capacity was utterly destroyed in WWII, and then 1/2 of the country was "lost" behind the Iron Curtain - e.g.: Porsche started 356 production outside of Stuttgart in Austria; & BMW's pre/during-WWII plant was lost to the other side & they had to relocate & rebuild in Munich). So the German mfgrs. were literally pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps (with help from the Marshall Plan), and incrementally getting back to being top manufacturers.

But the zinc coatings & galvanizing was only part of the rust story on Porsches & other German cars from that period, as the steel - both in the various steel alloys' composition & raw materials used played a big factor. According to my one Grandfather who had worked at J&L Steel in Pittsburgh PA as an industrial engineer - and who used to lecture me on my 914's inferior steel - post WWII German steel up through the mid-1970's at least, was generally considered inferior to USA steel alloys & quality within each type, mainly due to the higher scrap (recycled) steel content.

And so all 1940s-70's European cars were considered by many in the auto industry to be even more rust prone than their US built contemporaries for the steel alone - aside from galvanizing. Once a few mfgrs. started galvanizing (incl. any of hot dip, spray paint, electroplating, etc.), then everybody jumped on the bandwagon to do it. I think it was the hot dip process & tanks in the assy. line which made it feasible production time-wise & economically viable to rust treat the metals.

Also IIRC, old school galvanized steel is made more brittle for panel stamping & prone to have the galvanization chip off, as well as being toxic when subjected to welding (perhaps more important in the days when people did the welding on bodies - not robots).

Anyway, that's my take on it!

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[bulitt]

I took a tour of the Beth Steel Burns Harbor facility back @ 1993. The galvanization process is really neat. Miles of sheet steel going over rollers, into baths, through ovens, dryers and finally winding onto coils!!! Never stopping, being cut on the fly!

[Tom_T]

I took a tour of the Beth Steel Burns Harbor facility back @ 1993. The galvanization process is really neat. Miles of sheet steel going over rollers, into baths, through ovens, dryers and finally winding onto coils!!! Never stopping, being cut on the fly!

The huge Bessemer Furnaces were truly awe inspiring too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
... especially to a 9 year old back in the late 50's!

That was when they were switching over to gas fired from coal, & my Grandfather showed me around. He used to have to have 2 white shirts a day in the coal fired days, one worn in am, other on hanger to change in pm! Many days were pitch black like midnight - at Noon!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I remember earning a quarter daily to sweep coal ash off the sidewalk in from of my grandmother's shop in Mt. Lebanon (Pittsburgh suburb) up to 63 when we moved to San Diego! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[bulitt]

They had a catwalk about 30 yards from the conveyor. The hot ingots would come out and head into the rollers for flattening. The heat at 30yds was almost unbearable.

[Black914_4]

as well as being toxic when subjected to welding (perhaps more important in the days when people did the welding on bodies - not robots).

Tom
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Important now if any body plans on welding any of it. I've had to do it before. Just want to meantion that for any new welders that might not know.

Matt

[Tom_T]

as well as being toxic when subjected to welding (perhaps more important in the days when people did the welding on bodies - not robots).

Tom
///////

Important now if any body plans on welding any of it. I've had to do it before. Just want to meantion that for any new welders that might not know.

Matt

"On the nosey" Matt -

I just assumed that folks would figure out that it's still an issue with welding GI today, but it never hurts to drive home the point directly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) ....so to speak! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanx! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

They had a catwalk about 30 yards from the conveyor. The hot ingots would come out and head into the rollers for flattening. The heat at 30yds was almost unbearable.

Ditto with those huge Bessemers from an even greater distance.

That's how & why those steelworkers way up north in Pittsburgh always looked "tannned" - even in winter! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

.... complete with the "raccoon eyes" from their goggles! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Black914_4]

" never under estimate the power of human stupidity " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

J/K
But I did want to say that just in case. Someone might be new to welding and want to use some on their car or something. I'm a certified welder, but someone working on their car on the weekends might not know.

[SirAndy]

Remember that German industrial capacity was utterly destroyed in WWII

Actually, most of it was "exported" to the 4 countries that won the war. Where do you think your moon rocket came from?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And using WW2 as some sort of argument related to car production in the early seventies is a moot point since the German industry had long since recovered.

Do a search for "Wirtschaftswunder" on Google to get your timeline straight.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[scotty b]

Porsche started hot dipping their cars in 1976 (not sure if it was only 77 MY 911/912E/924 or if 76 build 76 MY 911/912E as well), which unfortunately just missed ALL MYs of 914s, because the 76 MY 914s were actually built in the 1975 calendar year. I believe it was a matter of not adding to the overall production costs, lack of customer demand &/or knowledge about the benefits, unavailability of the materials &/or processes/machinery as a result of post-WWII shortages, the lack of European countries using salt on their roads in most cases during that period, or a combination of these.

Remember that German industrial capacity was utterly destroyed in WWII, and then 1/2 of the country was "lost" behind the Iron Curtain - e.g.: Porsche started 356 production outside of Stuttgart in Austria; & BMW's pre/during-WWII plant was lost to the other side & they had to relocate & rebuild in Munich). So the German mfgrs. were literally pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps (with help from the Marshall Plan), and incrementally getting back to being top manufacturers.

But the zinc coatings & galvanizing was only part of the rust story on Porsches & other German cars from that period, as the steel - both in the various steel alloys' composition & raw materials used played a big factor. According to my one Grandfather who had worked at J&L Steel in Pittsburgh PA as an industrial engineer - and who used to lecture me on my 914's inferior steel - post WWII German steel up through the mid-1970's at least, was generally considered inferior to USA steel alloys & quality within each type, mainly due to the higher scrap (recycled) steel content.

And so all 1940s-70's European cars were considered by many in the auto industry to be even more rust prone than their US built contemporaries for the steel alone - aside from galvanizing. Once a few mfgrs. started galvanizing (incl. any of hot dip, spray paint, electroplating, etc.), then everybody jumped on the bandwagon to do it. I think it was the hot dip process & tanks in the assy. line which made it feasible production time-wise & economically viable to rust treat the metals.

Also IIRC, old school galvanized steel is made more brittle for panel stamping & prone to have the galvanization chip off, as well as being toxic when subjected to welding (perhaps more important in the days when people did the welding on bodies - not robots).

Anyway, that's my take on it!

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

Actually Tom, whole bodies started being galvanized in 1975. Prior to that certain panels were. Ther is a thread somewhere on Pelican about this

[Tom_T]

Remember that German industrial capacity was utterly destroyed in WWII

Actually, most of it was "exported" to the 4 countries that won the war. Where do you think your moon rocket came from?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And using WW2 as some sort of argument related to car production in the early seventies is a moot point since the German industry had long since recovered.

Do a search for "Wirtschaftswunder" on Google to get your timeline straight.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Actually Andy, during the 60's Porsche was still considered a small niche producer, and depended upon mass producer VW to market their P-cars up until the 914 came out in 69, and then VOA (VW of Amearica) & Porsche opened dedicated Porsche+Audi (or Porsche|Audi in some logos & signs) dealerships for the 70 MY here in the USA.

BMW, VW & Porsche in the 60's were then just coming into their own, especially relative to the Big 3 auto mfgrs., so some of their production lines were still in the process of upgrading during the 1970's - including my example of Porsche adding the hot dip tanks in their plant for the 76 MY P-cars.

You see, I don't have to "Google" it, because I was alive & cognizant then as a teen in the 60's & young man in the 70's!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I just have a different opinion than you, that the post-war recovery was a moot point in 1972 or 76! You should also note that I also presented that as only part of the several reasons as to why they weren't zinc treated before `76.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

" never under estimate the power of human stupidity " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

J/K
But I did want to say that just in case. Someone might be new to welding and want to use some on their car or something. I'm a certified welder, but someone working on their car on the weekends might not know.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Likewise, the old school 60's-70's & earlier method of tack welding wire mesh to the backside of panels & then "Leading" or "dipping" is very dangerous & little done today because of the toxic lead fumes from the molten lead.

.... and you think lead containing paint on a house is bad! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif)

Anyone leading seams or patches today should use appropriate gear & precautions, as I recall seeing guys wearing in the Porsche Classics "resto factory" pix of that 911T which was restored for PCA's member raffle last year, when they were leading the seams.

[Tom_T]

Actually Tom, whole bodies started being galvanized in 1975. Prior to that certain panels were. Ther is a thread somewhere on Pelican about this

Scotty,

I hadn't heard about other Porsche models' bodies - 911s/912Es - being dipped in 75, other than for the 76 MY production (i.e.: during July or Aug. 75 on).

AFAIK none of the 914 bodies were treated, but then they were produced at the Karmann plant.

Were any of the certain panels which were zinc treated prior for 914s, that you mentioned?

I'd like to read that Pelican topic on it, if anyone has the link? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[scotty b]

AFAIK no 914 panels were treated, only the 911's. Then starting with the 924 and on,all were dipped

Here's the link. Also note the talk about the stamping oil actually being burned off of the cars in a furnace prior to paint. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...1s-history.html

My 73 911 still has original lfoors in it with factory paint. Maybe for S&G I'll strip a spot one afternoon and see if the metal under the paint is indeed galvanized

[mepstein]

AFAIK no 914 panels were treated, only the 911's. Then starting with the 924 and on,all were dipped

Here's the link. Also note the talk about the stamping oil actually being burned off of the cars in a furnace prior to paint. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...1s-history.html

My 73 911 still has original lfoors in it with factory paint. Maybe for S&G I'll strip a spot one afternoon and see if the metal under the paint is indeed galvanized

Quoted from Pelican - The '72 does have a galvanized tub even though the body panels are not. I removed the kidney-shaped rocker support and the targa bar filler plate, which were rusted to bits, from the tub and the tub was pristine. I was very impressed. Too bad the body panels didn't get the same treatment.

That's really interesting, and consistent with what I've seen, too. It's one reason to avoid the Karmann built cars, and all 911s built before 1970. (1970 and 1971 Porsche built cars had the zinc coated panels, whereas the Karmann built cars did not, probably because of the different welding methods needed with the zinc coated panels.)

By the way, it's a hot dip zinc coating, not an electrolytically applied coating, so it's not really "galvanizing," to the best of my understanding.

[McMark]

I think it only had to do with dollars. The 914 was a economy car, was built to be cheap and not intended to last 40 years. They could have made it out of stainless steel too. But that wouldn't pass the accountants either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tom_T]

I think it only had to do with dollars. The 914 was a economy car, was built to be cheap and not intended to last 40 years. They could have made it out of stainless steel too. But that wouldn't pass the accountants either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ooooohhh.....now there's an idea, an all SS replacement 914 body-in-white! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Oooops, There I go again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Thanx Scotty, I'll read up on that link tonight when I have more time, gotta run!

[SirAndy]

You see, I don't have to "Google" it, because I was alive & cognizant then as a teen in the 60's & young man in the 70's!!
I just have a different opinion than you, that the post-war recovery was a moot point in 1972 or 76!

I grew up in Germany during the 60s and 70s.

Your opinion does not reflect reality.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[scotty b]

You see, I don't have to "Google" it, because I was alive & cognizant then as a teen in the 60's & young man in the 70's!!
I just have a different opinion than you, that the post-war recovery was a moot point in 1972 or 76!

I grew up in Germany during the 60s and 70s.

Your opinion does not reflect reality.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

.