 Active toe in the rear!, poly bushings already crapping out... |
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| cha914 |
  Dec 20 2004, 12:20 PM
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#1
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus  Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63  |
So I have the car up in the air dealing with the oil as usual, and I happen to lean on the inside of one of the rear tires and I hear a sucking sound as the control arm moves about a 1/8th inch...hmmm...check both the large nuts and they are both tight as they should be.
DAMN...it seems that the inside bushings on BOTH control arms have failed. They both move about 1/8th inch (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon8.gif) Now, I know these wern't the best solution, but I expected them to last more than 4000miles...I do have a pretty agressive alignment -2* camber and 0 toe in the rear, but I am still on street tires, and almost all the driving I have done has been on the street maybe 3 autox's... I grooved the bushings for grease on the inside, and I reamed them out so that they would fit snugly but not have to be pressed on...and I also checked to be sure that I shaved the outer edge down so I wouldn't get the wallow effect I have seen posted here so many times...however, it seems that none of this mattered because its been maybe 4K street miles and I now have the neato active toe... Sooooo...I know the real answer is to go to the muller bearings, but in the case that I can't get that kinda scratch together, did I do something wrong in the prep of these bushings, or do they just not last more than 4k miles? It seems like the inside of the bushing has been wallowed out, so that the control arm is moving around the center rod, the rod doesn't seem to be moving, but I know that is a dangerous assumption. I also find it strange that both sides have failed in the same way, at the same time...I guess I was consistant in whatever I did wrong (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) Any thoughts, comments welcome... Tony |
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Replies(1 - 19)
| lapuwali |
Dec 20 2004, 02:10 PM
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#2
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Not another one! Group: Benefactors Posts: 4,526 Joined: 1-March 04 From: San Mateo, CA Member No.: 1,743  |
There's an intermediate product between plain poly bushings and Mueller's bearings, made by Elephant Racing. It's a bronze bushing with a grease fitting, wrapped by a poly shell so it can still be installed in the never perfectly round stock control arm tube. I have no data on how well it works, but they are easier to install and cheaper than Mueller's parts. If you can afford them (and the installation), Mueller's stuff will certainly be longer lasting and will ultimately work better than the Elephant parts.
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| cha914 |
Dec 20 2004, 02:42 PM
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#3
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
I thought the elephant products were only for the front though? Didn't know they had a rear solution...however, I think they are only about a 100bucks cheaper, if I am gonna spend 300, might as well spend 400 and get the good stuff (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)
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| Mueller |
Dec 20 2004, 02:57 PM
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#4
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None 
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Yea, Chuck now has something for the rear, have not seen them, but I'd imagine that they work just fine....now back to your problem... are you sure that the thru hole for the 14mm threaded portion of the shaft is not oblong?? |
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| J P Stein |
Dec 20 2004, 02:58 PM
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#5
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
Ayup, I posted some pics a while back showing plastic deformation of poly graphite rear bushings a while back.
As far as I'm concerned, cutting lube grooves just makes it worse......more room for the material to flow. Mine were in there for 2-3 years with no grooves...but still toast. Muller bearing= end of problem. Dunno the longevity of them, tho. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) |
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| iamchappy |
Dec 20 2004, 03:10 PM
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#6
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It all happens so fast! Group: Members Posts: 4,893 Joined: 5-November 03 From: minnetonka, mn Member No.: 1,315 Region Association: Upper MidWest  |
What about the original bushings are they still available. At least they last for quite a long time.
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| cha914 |
Dec 20 2004, 03:11 PM
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#7
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
As of a year ago they were not oblong...and right now its definately the bushing that is moving not the center rod...I have been dreading pulling off that nut to see if the hole is now oblong...I hope I have caught this early enough, i am sure if I let it go, it would make the hole oblong.
I guess thats what happened, the grooves just sped the process, I will know for sure once I pull the things back apart (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mad.gif) You said yours lasted 2-3 years, but if you didn't grove them were you having the standard "stiction" issues?
I eventually want to run full muller bearings, but I need to actually get some use outa the current setup before I go drop another 800 bucks on it, right now the next 400 bucks is going into tires, or I will never get this car on a track and might as well sell the damn thing... |
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| Dave_Darling |
Dec 20 2004, 03:41 PM
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#8
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 14,991 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California
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Yeah, they are still available from time to time. The problem is, you have to buy a whole new trailing arm to get 'em! They're vulcanized to the inside of the trailing arm pivot, and not available separately. (Nor would they work correctly IMHO if they were available separately.) --DD |
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| J P Stein |
Dec 20 2004, 03:49 PM
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#9
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
Well, no. When the things oblong .03/.04 they move real easy.......sitll make them gawdawful noises, tho. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) Here's a pic. Note the squeeze out. Attached thumbnail(s) 
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| cha914 |
Dec 20 2004, 04:27 PM
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#10
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
Those are purdy...can't wait to see what mine look like...
JP - When you installed yours did you fit them or just press and go? Seems like the fit will take care of itself given enough time... What if I went with the opposite route, and pressed the bushings onto the center shaft, then milled down the outside so it was a decent fit and put the lube on the outside of the bushings? I am probably thinking too hard...just need to give in and empty my wallet... Muller, you running any christmas specials (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) |
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| Joe Ricard |
Dec 20 2004, 09:16 PM
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#11
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
Man I didn't need to read this post at all.
I just finished putting poly bushings in the rear of my car. Went in fairly smooth had to put the nut on and tighten them down to get the last 3/8 inch to seat. Running about the same camber and toe settings in the rear. Kumho V700's Ecsta on Fuchs. Rubber bushings would not allow zero toe. they were kinda collapsed. Man burning them out sure sucked. |
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| cha914 |
Dec 20 2004, 11:35 PM
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#12
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
Yeah, I wonder how much faster they would wear with sticky rubber...or maybe I just screwed up and put too much of a grove in them when I installed them...either way, paying the extra 340 dollars for muller bearings is very tempting...
So, who has been running the muller bearings the longest? How have they lasted? Maintaince? ugh... Tony |
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| Dave-O |
Dec 20 2004, 11:39 PM
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#13
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Is winter done yet? Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 26-August 03 From: Minneapols, MN Member No.: 1,082 |
hey, i've been playing with fire for a long time...this isn't so bad David Attached image(s) 
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| Joe Ricard |
Dec 21 2004, 08:05 AM
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#14
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
I guess that would have made it easier to take the trailing arms off the car 1st. I had a fire extinguisher at arms reach and a pan of water for the burning rubber bits to fall into.
If I'm not doing it the hard way I'm just not happy. |
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| joea9146 |
Dec 21 2004, 08:21 AM
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#15
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 663 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Denver, NC Member No.: 283 Region Association: None |
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| J P Stein |
Dec 21 2004, 01:01 PM
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#16
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
Another thing to worry over.
As I interpret THE BOOK, Meuller bearings are illegal in the SCCA Street Prepared classes(not that you're likely to get protested locally). The plastic jobbies are legal and will prolly be OK for a season or so. I've had Meuller front bearings for 2 seasons and the rears for one. I don't put much mileage on my car.....maybe 1K in the last 2 years. |
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| Mueller |
Dec 21 2004, 01:36 PM
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#17
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None
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a $45 press from Harbor Freight gets the axle and bushing out in about 3 minutes...with no fumes (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) We've had these installed in a few cars for a few years with no problems...unfortentely, I cannot give you an honest miles used, I do know that one set is installed on a heavily used street/track original /6 with a 3.0 and when Jeroen was here last year, the parts had been inspected with no signs of wear.... The rear bearings are sealed with an O-ring...for the fronts, liberal use of rtv on the front carrier works...Qarl fitted a large shrink tubing piece on the rear carrier for the front bearings which should work great....this is untested since his car is still in pieces (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) |
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| Joe Ricard |
Dec 21 2004, 04:40 PM
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#18
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
Crap. Good thing you said something. Thats all I need is some other minor reason to get kicked up another class. SM-2 is bad enough. Now as far the "stripper" is concerned I have been listening to a Mustang buddy that assures me 400 HP from a 302. The lightest of the V-8 engines. This will definately be a prepared class car. Save me some of them bearings for next year.. |
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| ewdysar |
Dec 21 2004, 07:47 PM
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#19
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What happens here, stays here. Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 29-October 04 From: Altadena, CA Member No.: 3,030 |
about those Meuller bearings, What does it do to the ride? Is it appropriate for a street car (V8)? More road noise? Just wondering...
Eric '75 2.0 Renegaded 327 SBC |
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| Brad Roberts |
Dec 21 2004, 08:04 PM
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#20
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Eric,
I'm not busting your ass directly.. we get these question A LOT.
The car will ride better. Why would it effect the ride ?
It will ride smoother....
No. The shocks actually have a easy time of working with the suspension. This means they dampen the bumps and not the "stick" in the suspension. I truelly dont understand why people think the ride *might* change. All it can do is get better as you allow the shocks and springs to work without fighting the plastic bushings or stock worn out rubber. Others have posted that Muellers bearings will wear quicker... BULLSHIT. They are designed for high speed machines that run 24/7. I pulled them out after 3 years of ABUSE... they looked new. The only change I made was to boat trailer wheel bearing grease so I didnt have to worry about water washing the lube out. Constantly people ask for "zirk" fittings so they can grease them... BULLSHIT. Your lower control arm balljoints dont have zirk fittings and never had them. Your front and rear wheel bearings dont have zirk fittings..... why do these need fittings ? |
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