Ignition switch failures, Poll participation por favor |
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Ignition switch failures, Poll participation por favor |
Chris914n6 |
Dec 30 2017, 08:40 PM
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#1
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Jackstands are my life. Group: Members Posts: 3,333 Joined: 14-March 03 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 431 Region Association: Southwest Region |
A URO rep saw my fail video and contacted me regarding their desire to understand the failure and make improvements. Part of the problem seems that Corporate doesn't see any failure rate unlike we do -- as none of us seem to be returning them.
So here is a chance to speak up for your experiences. * My FLAPS sourced URO switch was marked with a green Sharpie 'quality control' dot, so it's safe to assume "other brands" with the same dot come from UROs manufacturer. For me that includes 2 other name brands. My Video post |
Mark Henry |
Dec 30 2017, 09:37 PM
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#2
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
Ford solenoid mod no failure, original switch.
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Mikey914 |
Dec 31 2017, 09:20 AM
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#3
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The rubber man Group: Members Posts: 12,678 Joined: 27-December 04 From: Hillsboro, OR Member No.: 3,348 Region Association: None |
Well ive done it before, but could make these. What is the mode of failure? Loise contact arcing causing switch to melt?
Id be happy to make these correctly. |
914Sixer |
Dec 31 2017, 09:27 AM
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#4
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 8,903 Joined: 17-January 05 From: San Angelo Texas Member No.: 3,457 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Plastic is not hard enough to keep from breaking where the tip of key rotates the switch.
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GregAmy |
Dec 31 2017, 09:42 AM
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#5
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,311 Joined: 22-February 13 From: Middletown CT Member No.: 15,565 Region Association: North East States |
Yeah, the switches are likely crap, but everyone should relay their starter circuit regardless (link in Mark's sig above). There's no reason to be sending that higher-amps all the way forward, through a plastic switch, and all the way back.
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76-914 |
Dec 31 2017, 10:00 AM
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#6
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist Group: Members Posts: 13,508 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) w Mark. My 76 is done that way and I've had it since 99 w/ same switch. My 73 has OEM and solenoid, too. Still ok since '11. My 70 failed after about 25 on/off cycles off the switch while doing tests. This is even before it ever cranked over. I bought a used OEM from Bruce and installed solenoid. Have no Idea what brand it came with but it was junk. Would not send power out to the #9 blk wire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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Mikey914 |
Dec 31 2017, 10:48 AM
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#7
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The rubber man Group: Members Posts: 12,678 Joined: 27-December 04 From: Hillsboro, OR Member No.: 3,348 Region Association: None |
When i had the opportunity I bought about 6 NOS switches. This was a few years ago. Think ill dig these out and take a look. I would make available a few for those in need, but thinking if i made in glass reinforced Delrin. It would be a better product.
I would agree from a design standpoint the relay is a great improvement. Mark |
StratPlayer |
Dec 31 2017, 11:29 AM
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#8
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StratPlayer Group: Members Posts: 3,278 Joined: 27-December 02 From: SLC, Utah Member No.: 27 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
My experience with ignition switches
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=110441 |
ConeDodger |
Dec 31 2017, 11:38 AM
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#9
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,612 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California |
A URO rep saw my fail video and contacted me regarding their desire to understand the failure and make improvements. Part of the problem seems that Corporate doesn't see any failure rate unlike we do -- as none of us seem to be returning them. So here is a chance to speak up for your experiences. * My FLAPS sourced URO switch was marked with a green Sharpie 'quality control' dot, so it's safe to assume "other brands" with the same dot come from UROs manufacturer. For me that includes 2 other name brands. My Video post They don’t return them because the price is low enough that the hassle exceeds the reward. |
ConeDodger |
Dec 31 2017, 11:39 AM
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#10
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,612 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California |
A URO rep saw my fail video and contacted me regarding their desire to understand the failure and make improvements. Part of the problem seems that Corporate doesn't see any failure rate unlike we do -- as none of us seem to be returning them. So here is a chance to speak up for your experiences. * My FLAPS sourced URO switch was marked with a green Sharpie 'quality control' dot, so it's safe to assume "other brands" with the same dot come from UROs manufacturer. For me that includes 2 other name brands. My Video post They don’t return them because the price is low enough that the hassle exceeds the reward. |
Tbrown4x4 |
Jan 1 2018, 03:55 AM
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#11
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 705 Joined: 13-May 14 From: Port Orchard, WA Member No.: 17,338 Region Association: None |
"Genuine Porsche" from Pelican about 2 years ago. Plan on doing the Ford solenoid soon, but 100 miles a day and still no issues. (I thought I put the Meistersatz in and accidentally voted "other".)
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Porschef |
Jan 1 2018, 08:41 AM
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#12
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How you doin' Group: Members Posts: 2,165 Joined: 7-September 10 From: LawnGuyland Member No.: 12,152 Region Association: North East States |
They're still available OEM for later car's. Delrin would be a great solution, IMHO.
Yay Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
jim_hoyland |
Jan 1 2018, 09:42 AM
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#13
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Get that VIN ? Group: Members Posts: 9,318 Joined: 1-May 03 From: Sunset Beach, CA Member No.: 643 Region Association: Southern California |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) A new-improved version will be great
Are there 3 versions of the switch for the different years ? |
gothspeed |
Jan 1 2018, 09:48 AM
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#14
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,539 Joined: 3-February 09 From: SoCal Member No.: 10,019 Region Association: None |
I replaced my cracked OE switch with one from a local VW parts shop. Do not recall the brand but hopefully it lasts a little while.
This thread has some good 'fix' info: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...START&st=20 |
914Toy |
Jan 1 2018, 12:58 PM
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#15
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 12-November 17 From: Laguna beach Member No.: 21,596 Region Association: Southern California |
Please correct me if I am wrong believing as follows:
1) Relay switches. The starter motor has a relay switch attached to it with a large wire connection for the positive wire (high amps) directly from the battery, and a small blade connection for the yellow wire (low amps) from the ignition switch starter mode contact. The yellow wire signal is a low amp signal to the relay switch which then connects the high amp power from the battery onto the motor, probably drawing as much as 30 to 40 amps to turn the engine over. Thus, why do some suggest an additional relay switch is helpful? 2) Ignition switch. I have noticed the high frequency failure of the typical column mounted ignition switch reported. The physical force to turn the key the last clockwise notch to engage the starter (yellow wire) maybe the primary cause of these switches failing. My solution was to install a "press start" switch (see pic) with a relay switch so that to start the engine - you switch the ignition on as usual, but use the press start switch to engage the starter, thus avoiding using the key to press/twist the switch to the starter position. It also looks cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
GregAmy |
Jan 1 2018, 01:47 PM
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#16
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,311 Joined: 22-February 13 From: Middletown CT Member No.: 15,565 Region Association: North East States |
The starter motor has a relay switch attached to it with a large wire connection for the positive wire (high amps) directly from the battery, and a small blade connection for the yellow wire (low amps) from the ignition switch starter mode contact. The yellow wire signal is a low amp signal to the relay switch which then connects the high amp power from the battery onto the motor, probably drawing as much as 30 to 40 amps to turn the engine over. Thus, why do some suggest an additional relay switch is helpful? Without getting into too much electrical technical discussion...you are correct: the starter motor itself gets its driving amps directly from the battery through the large positive cable. And, the starter solenoid is itself a relay in that it engages the motor when it moves. However, engagement of the solenoid is a relatively-high-amp draw itself, since it has high(er) coil resistance. While maintaining a solenoid engaged is only around 8-10A or so (I've never measured it) the process of engaging that solenoid, the first 30-50 milliseconds of inrush when you turn to the start position, is actually a higher current draw, I'm guessing anywhere from 25-30A. That can be hard on a switch, especially one of crappy design. Energizing a relay, such as the Ford relay or the commonly-used "hot start kit" Bosch relay, only takes about 3A. Further, in the Porsche 914 that 25/30-then-~10A current has to go from the battery, all the way up front to the fuse panel, then up to the ignition switch, then all the way back to the starter solenoid. And all across 40+-yr-old wiring and connections. So, all in all, it's just good electrical design to place a relay back there, keep the current local, and minimize current to all the way up front and then back. |
JeffBowlsby |
Jan 1 2018, 02:03 PM
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#17
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914 Wiring Harnesses Group: Members Posts: 8,533 Joined: 7-January 03 From: San Ramon CA Member No.: 104 Region Association: None |
The replaceable ignition switch plastic portion rotates in the metal switch barrel when operated and needs to be lubricated to reduce wear and stress on the plastic switch housing. I believe this lack of lubrication is a major contributor to premature switch failures. Use a thin coating of silicone grease.
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914Toy |
Jan 1 2018, 02:06 PM
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#18
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 12-November 17 From: Laguna beach Member No.: 21,596 Region Association: Southern California |
The starter motor has a relay switch attached to it with a large wire connection for the positive wire (high amps) directly from the battery, and a small blade connection for the yellow wire (low amps) from the ignition switch starter mode contact. The yellow wire signal is a low amp signal to the relay switch which then connects the high amp power from the battery onto the motor, probably drawing as much as 30 to 40 amps to turn the engine over. Thus, why do some suggest an additional relay switch is helpful? Without getting into too much electrical technical discussion...you are correct: the starter motor itself gets its driving amps directly from the battery through the large positive cable. And, the starter solenoid is itself a relay in that it engages the motor when it moves. However, engagement of the solenoid is a relatively-high-amp draw itself, since it has high(er) coil resistance. While maintaining a solenoid engaged is only around 8-10A or so (I've never measured it) the process of engaging that solenoid, the first 30-50 milliseconds of inrush when you turn to the start position, is actually a higher current draw, I'm guessing anywhere from 25-30A. That can be hard on a switch, especially one of crappy design. Energizing a relay, such as the Ford relay or the commonly-used "hot start kit" Bosch relay, only takes about 3A. Further, in the Porsche 914 that 25/30-then-~10A current has to go from the battery, all the way up front to the fuse panel, then up to the ignition switch, then all the way back to the starter solenoid. And all across 40+-yr-old wiring and connections. So, all in all, it's just good electrical design to place a relay back there, keep the current local, and minimize current to all the way up front and then back. This makes sense. I will add a 30 amp relay switch (Ford or Bosch) for the solenoid switch connection to the battery, using the yellow wire from my push start to initiate this additional relay switch. Thanks for the description. |
porschetub |
Jan 1 2018, 02:56 PM
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#19
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,705 Joined: 25-July 15 From: New Zealand Member No.: 18,995 Region Association: None |
The switch design is basically the same for 914,T2,944,924,T25 and I believe later T1 and several Audi's of a similar era there is possibly more that I don't know about.
The key issue is the top section cracks @ the point where the return spring tang fits no getting past that regardless of the brand IMO its just a matter of time/use ,from direct experience I haven't seen a switch melt but I'am sure it could happen. I started a thread some months ago after looking into the issue and found the direct result of the top section cracking is the contact springs lose tension and cause intermitant "dead spots" until the switch fails completely. Using Pelican Meistersatz replacement and so far so good,I refuse to buy anything URO after being stranded on the side of the road by one of their parts in my old Golf GTI,URO guy pops up every now and then but never directly replies quality issues......funny that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif). Perhaps 914 rubber could make a stronger top cap section for the switch then folks could swap them out....easy enough to do afterall. |
djway |
Jan 1 2018, 07:47 PM
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#20
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 787 Joined: 16-October 15 From: Riverside Member No.: 19,266 Region Association: Southern California |
Hurry up Mikey. In the car I am rebuilding the plastic housing was cracked so I heat welded it back together. If you make the switch before I put the column back in the car I don't have to take the risk.
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