A URO rep saw my fail video and contacted me regarding their desire to understand the failure and make improvements. Part of the problem seems that Corporate doesn't see any failure rate unlike we do -- as none of us seem to be returning them.

So here is a chance to speak up for your experiences.

* My FLAPS sourced URO switch was marked with a green Sharpie 'quality control' dot, so it's safe to assume "other brands" with the same dot come from UROs manufacturer. For me that includes 2 other name brands.

My Video post

Ford solenoid mod no failure, original switch.

Well ive done it before, but could make these. What is the mode of failure? Loise contact arcing causing switch to melt?
Id be happy to make these correctly.

Plastic is not hard enough to keep from breaking where the tip of key rotates the switch.

Yeah, the switches are likely crap, but everyone should relay their starter circuit regardless (link in Mark's sig above). There's no reason to be sending that higher-amps all the way forward, through a plastic switch, and all the way back.

w Mark. My 76 is done that way and I've had it since 99 w/ same switch. My 73 has OEM and solenoid, too. Still ok since '11. My 70 failed after about 25 on/off cycles off the switch while doing tests. This is even before it ever cranked over. I bought a used OEM from Bruce and installed solenoid. Have no Idea what brand it came with but it was junk. Would not send power out to the #9 blk wire.

When i had the opportunity I bought about 6 NOS switches. This was a few years ago. Think ill dig these out and take a look. I would make available a few for those in need, but thinking if i made in glass reinforced Delrin. It would be a better product.

I would agree from a design standpoint the relay is a great improvement.
Mark

My experience with ignition switches
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=110441

They don’t return them because the price is low enough that the hassle exceeds the reward.

They don’t return them because the price is low enough that the hassle exceeds the reward.

"Genuine Porsche" from Pelican about 2 years ago. Plan on doing the Ford solenoid soon, but 100 miles a day and still no issues. (I thought I put the Meistersatz in and accidentally voted "other".)

They're still available OEM for later car's. Delrin would be a great solution, IMHO.

Yay Mark

A new-improved version will be great
Are there 3 versions of the switch for the different years ?

I replaced my cracked OE switch with one from a local VW parts shop. Do not recall the brand but hopefully it lasts a little while.

This thread has some good 'fix' info:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...START&st=20

Please correct me if I am wrong believing as follows:

1) Relay switches.

The starter motor has a relay switch attached to it with a large wire connection for the positive wire (high amps) directly from the battery, and a small blade connection for the yellow wire (low amps) from the ignition switch starter mode contact. The yellow wire signal is a low amp signal to the relay switch which then connects the high amp power from the battery onto the motor, probably drawing as much as 30 to 40 amps to turn the engine over.

Thus, why do some suggest an additional relay switch is helpful?

2) Ignition switch.

I have noticed the high frequency failure of the typical column mounted ignition switch reported. The physical force to turn the key the last clockwise notch to engage the starter (yellow wire) maybe the primary cause of these switches failing.

My solution was to install a "press start" switch (see pic) with a relay switch so that to start the engine - you switch the ignition on as usual, but use the press start switch to engage the starter, thus avoiding using the key to press/twist the switch to the starter position. It also looks cool



Click to view attachment

Without getting into too much electrical technical discussion...you are correct: the starter motor itself gets its driving amps directly from the battery through the large positive cable. And, the starter solenoid is itself a relay in that it engages the motor when it moves.

However, engagement of the solenoid is a relatively-high-amp draw itself, since it has high(er) coil resistance. While maintaining a solenoid engaged is only around 8-10A or so (I've never measured it) the process of engaging that solenoid, the first 30-50 milliseconds of inrush when you turn to the start position, is actually a higher current draw, I'm guessing anywhere from 25-30A. That can be hard on a switch, especially one of crappy design.

Energizing a relay, such as the Ford relay or the commonly-used "hot start kit" Bosch relay, only takes about 3A.

Further, in the Porsche 914 that 25/30-then-~10A current has to go from the battery, all the way up front to the fuse panel, then up to the ignition switch, then all the way back to the starter solenoid. And all across 40+-yr-old wiring and connections.

So, all in all, it's just good electrical design to place a relay back there, keep the current local, and minimize current to all the way up front and then back.

The replaceable ignition switch plastic portion rotates in the metal switch barrel when operated and needs to be lubricated to reduce wear and stress on the plastic switch housing. I believe this lack of lubrication is a major contributor to premature switch failures. Use a thin coating of silicone grease.

This makes sense. I will add a 30 amp relay switch (Ford or Bosch) for the solenoid switch connection to the battery, using the yellow wire from my push start to initiate this additional relay switch. Thanks for the description.

The switch design is basically the same for 914,T2,944,924,T25 and I believe later T1 and several Audi's of a similar era there is possibly more that I don't know about.
The key issue is the top section cracks @ the point where the return spring tang fits no getting past that regardless of the brand IMO its just a matter of time/use ,from direct experience I haven't seen a switch melt but I'am sure it could happen.
I started a thread some months ago after looking into the issue and found the direct result of the top section cracking is the contact springs lose tension and cause intermitant "dead spots" until the switch fails completely.
Using Pelican Meistersatz replacement and so far so good,I refuse to buy anything URO after being stranded on the side of the road by one of their parts in my old Golf GTI,URO guy pops up every now and then but never directly replies quality issues......funny that .
Perhaps 914 rubber could make a stronger top cap section for the switch then folks could swap them out....easy enough to do afterall.

Hurry up Mikey. In the car I am rebuilding the plastic housing was cracked so I heat welded it back together. If you make the switch before I put the column back in the car I don't have to take the risk.

..........who can post "ford" mod thread?

Click to view attachment

The 'top' from my URO swapped over and fixed my OEM switch, thus not a total waste. If that's all you need this might be the way to go.

URO -- Original with URO 'cap' -- Original from a parts car.
Click to view attachment

Bottom of my signature.

BTW the pic 76-914 posted is my drawing that I posted in the early 2000's when the 914world (club) started.

This is in process.
I have Bruce sending me a few different switches for analysis. I'd rather get it right than fast. But the process should take about 14 weeks give or take a few.
Mark

So I went through 15 switches to see how they failed. They include the 75-76 type and the 72-74 type. Late type have a different bottom shape. About half were cracked at the small hole that holds the return spring. Some have the hole wallowed out where the tumbler assembly fits into the switch. The cracking looks like a design flaw with Porsche and aftermarket switches. The wall is less than .025' and it cracks from the spring pressure. I had one switch that had the spring holding hole made horizontally and may be less prone to cracking. One early and one late and a bunch of cracked ones going to Mark to make a better switch. From what I have seen at Pelican the cheap brands are bad no matter who makes them. Porsche is $40. We had one customer drop his onto the carpeted floor from the steering column height and is shattered on the floor. If you need one now buy a genuine Porsche one.
Other observations.

1 Some have an electrical contact inside of the hole for the tumbler. (last picture)
2 The top area that cracks might be able to be enlarged in diameter to reduce the cracking. It fits into the housing but the hole there seems to be bigger than the part that goes intio it.

[quote name='Chris914n6' date='Jan 1 2018, 10:07 PM' post='2563415']
The 'top' from my URO swapped over and fixed my OEM switch, thus not a total waste. If that's all you need this might be the way to go.

Why but a URO parts at all ? Considering the labor to put one in you do not want to do the job twice. Go buy a genuine one for $40 and be done with it.

A URO rep saw my fail video and contacted me regarding their desire to understand the failure and make improvements. Part of the problem seems that Corporate doesn't see any failure rate unlike we do -- as none of us seem to be returning them.

They do not care about quality until some one posts about the crap they make. If they had a clue as to how to make parts they would not need to ask customers how they fail.
And they could test the product if they cared at all before selling there junk and asking customers how they fail. They copy products and do little to make sure they are reliable. Same with the other crap brands.

I bought a spare Porsche ignition switch to keep as a spare shortly after my original switch failed and I replaced it with original. One could argue that the original switch had lasted 25-30 years and that point so what am I worried about. Well, I’m worried about the second one failing and the only solution being a big red button on the dash. (No offense but I’m not trying to keep a tractor running, it’s a classic.)
If Mark uses glass reinforced delrin And otherwise the same quality? 70 years? problem pretty much eliminated right?

Mark, would it be possible to "rig" some type of actuator to cycle the new improved switch you will be producing on and off multiple times? Somewhat similar to what you used for testing your master cylinder.

Yes.
Unlike the "laboratory" that URO has we actually test our parts. Damn, we don't have a periodic table.

Here you go-
Click to view attachment

-HB

I'm on my 2nd "aftermarket" switch from Pelican in 3 years (about 24,000 miles).

Last time I also paid big ca$h for a genuine OEM and had to wait weeks for it to come in. This will be going in WHEN the next "aftermarket" Pelican switch fails.

I may consider the Ford relay if this continues to be a problem for me.

I'm not a fan of BS so here is an excerpt from the first email I got. This is also why I started this thread.

"Hi Chris, our engineers pulled five random samples of ignition switch 111 905 865L from our inventory, and fully tested both the "on" and "start" circuits, checking all cylinder positions for loss of power. All five switches performed properly, with no defects.

We've sold more than 500 of these switches in the last year, and only one was returned because it was not needed by the customer. We have have zero returned as defective, though it is certainly possible that there were some defective units and they were thrown away instead of returned. The engineers are at a loss as to why yours failed, and would like to provide you with a prepaid return label so we can get it back to determine why it was defective, if you still have it. We would also like to reimburse you, whether or not the switch is returned.

Thank you,
Justin "

They are sending me a replacement. I will post my findings.

I find it difficult to believe a company would trade their reputation for a couple $ they make off of reselling a Chinese clone. But if I find out the new oil leak on the 335i is their oil cooler seal I replaced last year all hell is going to break loose.

I do not go for BS either although those are my initials.

Working at Pelican today I had two calls of reported Uro parts failures in a short time. The first was a 912 oil line two weeks after installation.. Customer thought it was the oil sending unit and bought that part needlessly to find it was the new Uro line he had recently installed. The second one was a master cylinder. He reported the Uro brand was tapered or champhered at the top where the feed lines attach. Original is straight bore. They may have made them wider to make the line installation easier. He reported visible small puddles of brake fluid on the ground. Found the grommets leaking at the top of the master cylinder. Both customers had extensive vehicle repair experience on vintage Porsches so I do not think installation error was a factor.

Regarding the Uro testing.
What amperage load did they test them under?
How many cycles they they test the switch to in development ?
10 times day normal use would be 3,650 a year so 10,000 = 3 year average use would be a good test to start with.
Did they test for switch temperature and voltage drop over time ?

I read their response as:
"We don't know what we are doing, but to appear responsible we will give you another part just like the first one that failed so you can help us figure out how to make it not fail."
Ahh...., no thanks would be my thought. Not a replacement job that is worth the potential $ savings.
Get a genuine or wait for Mark to make them. Samples of failures sent to him.

Why not pop that failed one open and see for your self what failed ?

The last one that failed on me was cracked. I already had the "hot start" mod.

It failed in hot teperatures.

Hot start mod will not cure a faulty or poor quality switch.
It will put less of a load on the switch, which is a good thing on a 40 year old OE switch and may help with contact issues of the cheap switches.

Your failure in hot temperatures definitely points at a material issue.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

It certainly is.

I know why. The Y shaped contact isn't bent as accurately as OEM, and the cloning process offset the terminals enough that an OEM Y does the same thing where it doesn't stay connected with RUN while engaging START, and with my original ignition lock it doesn't rotate enough to contact both at the same time.

Technically it didn't fail, it just doesn't work right, as is seen in my video.

The 2 fail points I see with OEM switches:
1. The piece that cracks under pressure from the return spring.
2. Wear in the rotating piece where it contacts the ignition cylinder, and also on the ignition cylinder.

Those 3 pieces can be made easy enough that we could have a cheap repair kit. Add a starter relay, like all modern cars have, and you should be good for the rest of your life

URO sent me 2 new in the bag. Put both thru my 'video test' rig and they worked like factory, with RUN staying on during the whole START motion. They have a white paint dot instead of the green Sharpie dot, so maybe something changed along the line

I'm ready to go start on something else

Thanks for the update Chris. Our engineers are still re-evaluating this switch, we'll PM you if any improvements are possible while still keeping the price where it is (to remain competitive with everyone else selling "green dot" economy switches).

We looked into making a high-end switch from scratch, but the tooling for all of the tiny internals adds up to a small fortune. We'd have to charge as much or more than OEM to even begin to recoup the tooling investment, so it doesn't make financial sense when folks can simply buy OEM instead. Unfortunately there's no middle ground on these switches.

Don't worry, I'm on it. Currently re evaluating several failed switches, Working on a redesign. I'll be posting a GB when I have the details worked out.

Looking at the pictures from Bruce and thinking of plastics becoming brittle with age from out-gassing, I would think finding the material with the proper durometer that does not have the "brittle over time" problem should solve the issue.

That's quite odd, since URO does not make oil lines for the 912, and never has. Pelican only lists Genuine Porsche and COHLINE oil lines for the 912 on its web site. Why would a customer call Pelican and mention a "URO 912 oil line" that he or she couldn't have possibly purchased from Pelican, or anywhere else? Very strange, this is the third or fourth recent report of a "failed URO item" that URO doesn't even make.



The URO master cylinder has a slightly larger chamfer at the top of the bore to make grommet installation easier, but the grommet doesn't touch the chamfer after it's fully inserted. The grommet snapps into place below a lip at the bottom of the chamfer, so the chamfer cannot possibly affect sealing.

A common reason for leakage at the feed line grommets is failure to reuse the original thin copper washers (p/n 901 355 936 00, see item 26 below) during installation. Whether the master cylinder is URO, ATE or other brand, the OE washers must be removed from the bottom of the feed line bores in the original master cylinder, and placed beneath the grommets in the new master cylinder.

It's hard to say why Porsche used these washers instead of just making the bores slightly less deep. It's possible that the early cars off the production line experienced some leakage at the feed lines, so Porsche engineers made a running change and added the washers to reduce volume in the grommet pockets, thereby increasing compression of the grommet for better sealing. (Something dealers could also do for cars already on the road.) And it's logical that OEM and aftermarket master cylinder manufacturers would machine the bores to the same depth as OE, even though it would make sense to reduce bore depth by the thickness of the washer, and eliminate the washers. Unfortunately such a tiny change to the OE design could lead to technicians adding the washers to "shallow" feed line bores designed to eliminate the washers, and make it even more difficult to insert the lines. So it's really best to stay with the OE design and trust that the mechanic will install all of the parts correctly, though that doesn't always happen.



As Chris mentioned, we've sold more than 500 of these switches in the past year without a single defect reported, and the switch has a 4-star rating on Amazon. So even though the sales data doesn't show any problems, clearly longevity is an issue based on actual experiences here, so our engineers are currently reviewing the switch. It's an economy item that's sold by lots of brands, so we're seeing if there's any way we can improve it post-production while still keeping the price where it is. Someone could certainly make a high-end switch for $25 or $30, but at that price why bother with aftermarket - just buy OEM.

Any updates Mark?

Click to view attachment

I bypassed my ignition switch with a toggle "start" switch. The left toggle is on/off for the fuel pump. The center toggle is spring loaded, push up to engage starter (after turning ignition switch to the on position with key) release when engine starts, the right toggle is for electric windshield washer pump. The right knob is trip odo reset. Unless a potential car thief knows the car, it's harder to steal just by punching out the ignition.