 Do you think "sticky" auto-x tires and or slicks can be &quo, for both the car, the driver and those around??? |
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| Mueller |
 Apr 19 2006, 05:13 PM
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#1
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914 Freak!  Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None 
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title should be "Do you think "sticky" auto-x tires and or slicks are DANGEROUS??? it....
So I got to thinking that it would be nice to have a second set of rims and tires for the few times that I've auto-x'd and for the few times I plan on going again.... With the price of slicks being pretty well within reach they are tempting...however, I am starting to wonder if there are dangers to going with super sticky tires and wanted to get the thoughts of others... example 1... let's say on a particular course one would hit turn 1 at 50mph on street tires..the combination of "slip" along with "squeal" would make the driver back off somewhat.... add slicks, and lets say the speed increases to 60mph with no "warnings" of impeading loss of traction... It seems to me that the slicks could be dangerous in the wrong hands.....what do you think?? |
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Replies(1 - 19)
| DanT |
Apr 19 2006, 05:24 PM
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#2
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Mueller @ Apr 19 2006, 04:13 PM)  title should be "Do you think "sticky" auto-x tires and or slicks are DANGEROUS??? it.... So I got to thinking that it would be nice to have a second set of rims and tires for the few times that I've auto-x'd and for the few times I plan on going again.... With the price of slicks being pretty well within reach they are tempting...however, I am starting to wonder if there are dangers to going with super sticky tires and wanted to get the thoughts of others... example 1... let's say on a particular course one would hit turn 1 at 50mph on street tires..the combination of "slip" along with "squeal" would make the driver back off somewhat.... add slicks, and lets say the speed increases to 60mph with no "warnings" of impeading loss of traction... It seems to me that the slicks could be dangerous in the wrong hands.....what do you think?? You are correct in thinking that the street tires, DOT Rs will give you more audible feed back before impending doom. For a car with basic suspension set up slicks are a waste of time in my book. If you car is basically a street car. Rs are as high as I would go. Slicks are better matched to a chassis with reinforcements and much stiffer suspension and bushings. IMHO Stay with streets or DOT Rs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Nomex is on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) |
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| r_towle |
Apr 19 2006, 05:26 PM
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#3
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,594 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States
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well, do you want to win?
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| SirAndy |
Apr 19 2006, 05:26 PM
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#4
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,689 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
you can still *feel* them losing grip. they just won't yell at 'ya like a street tire does ...
they start slipping just like any other tire when near the edge of their potential "stick" ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Andy |
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| turboman808 |
Apr 19 2006, 05:30 PM
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#5
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,718 Joined: 31-January 06 From: North Jersey Member No.: 5,505 Region Association: North East States |
Got to say losing by a second wek after week to guys on race tires always has me leaving ready to buy a set. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But then I watch as they spend time putting there tires back on and say OH Nevermind! Did that for years now I jusr want to show up and have fun. I don't care if I win. Let them challenge me to a bicycle race! |
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| Brad Roberts |
Apr 19 2006, 05:33 PM
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#6
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
The latest Hoosiers slip then stick.
Once you drive a tire to it's max grip.. you will learn were that is and drive the tire on the "edge" It took 6-8 laps on the new Hoosiers to find out where the grip was. It took me the same number of laps on the Kuhmo's. Push the tires until you find the limit. Is a slick harder on the car? It comes down to how hard you drive it. And.. what is your description of a slick? Some people have different opinions. Slick in my world: GoodYear, Yoko, Dunlap, Pirelli, Hoosier, Michelin DOT in my world: Hoosier, Kuhmo, Avon, Falkin I have a lot of people referring to the Kuhmo's and Hoosiers as "slicks".. um.. NO B |
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| Tobra |
Apr 19 2006, 05:43 PM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,453 Joined: 22-August 05 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 4,634 |
I think the better the tires stick to the road the better it is. I know when I got rid of the crappy OEM tires on my Honda, the stopping distances drp noticably, with no other modification. Saved my butt shortly after I got the Yokohama tires the first time when someone pulled in front of me. I don't think every yahoo on the road should be rolling R compound tires, but I would not mind doing it myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I have had street tires that howled like banshees every time you pitched the car a little bit sideways(OEM Michelins on the Honda, lasted forever too, the bastards, I hated those fuchin' tires) Had AVS intermediates after that, quiet, even when giving up grip a bit, totally controllable and predictable. Had some Kumho Ecsta tires after that, cheap, stuck like the the Yokohamas, but loud, in a straight line, on a corner, started to pull late in their lives. Yokohama makes a heckova tire |
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| Randal |
Apr 19 2006, 05:51 PM
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#8
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
"along with "squeal" would make the driver back off somewhat...."
What is "back off somewhat?" Never hear of that. |
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| Brad Roberts |
Apr 19 2006, 05:56 PM
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#9
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
That is how Mike drives.. he "backs off" sometimes.
I had the Boxster completely sideways with 3 cars close to my tail at Streets a week or so back. I had no more gas pedal to straighten the car back out.. and the corner was questionable about running it in 3rd and bog the engine or at the top of second (I was expermenting) so.. here I am sideways with a decent distance between me and cars behind me. I take a chance and downshift the car into second and re plant throttle.. car straightened out and I didnt lose my lead..LOL I learned a lot. I entered the corner too hot for third, but coming up on the corner with a downshift into 2nd worked perfect. Driving on the edge. B |
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| jhadler |
Apr 19 2006, 07:00 PM
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#10
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Long term tinkerer... Group: Members Posts: 1,879 Joined: 7-April 03 From: Lyons, CO Member No.: 529 |
If it's just the occasional autox, and not an entire season. I'd say get a set of nice Falken's or Hankook's. Sticky street rubber that pretends to be DOT R tires. DOT R tires are super sticky, but don't take kindly to uneccessary punishment. Also, DOT R's tend to heat cylce and die over time. And slicks? Unless you've substantially upgraded the suspension and reinforced the rear console somehow. You're not gonna get much out of 'em. Slicks (Goodyear, Pirelli, Hoosier etc) are really grippy, and will drive very differently than a radial tire (Kumho, Toyo, Yokohama, etc).
And DOT radials are not cheap. Used slicks are definitely cheaper, and occasionally, you can find a half way decent set of cast off DOT R tires behind the tire truck at a track day. So if it's jsut for the occasional autox, and no street driving, go dumpster diving at the track. If it's gonna see street use too, get some nice high performance street tires. I'd steer clear of "slicks" unless you've got a lot of work into the suspension. Street tires howl and complain as you get close to the limit. DOT R's will talk to you as you ride the limit, and will dramatically out perform street rubber. Slicks will grip forever, even after they start to slide (that's where they're best!), and will put more load on your suspension (and brain) than you ever expected. Oh, did I mention that slicks are awfull fun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Still, slicks are commitment. One that the rules in my class don't allow. Oh yeah, -rules-. Certain classes will allow DOT R tires, and higher level prep classes will allow slicks. If you're shooting for TTOD, be prepared to invest to compete against the fire-breathing-trailer-riding-mosters that are running on slicks... -Josh2 |
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| Mueller |
Apr 19 2006, 07:04 PM
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#11
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None
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I guess the point of the original question was kinda lost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
To me, in in-experianced hands, "I" think slicks can be dangerous since it ups the speeds and limits at which things happen. Even on the street with super sticky tires, I can see yahoos getting into trouble... |
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| nine14cats |
Apr 19 2006, 09:13 PM
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#12
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Bill Pickering -- 914-6 GT aka....Leeloo Group: Members Posts: 2,618 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Campbell, CA Member No.: 287 Region Association: None |
Hi Mike,
I'll chime in here since I'm a slick advocate. Going back to your original question, I may disagree that they are more dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced person. I think the threshold limit of grip is higher and you will be carrying more speed, but the local PCA AX's that you may attend (GGR, Redwood Region, LPR) normally design pretty safe courses. That really is a key for letting it hang out. If designed and constructed to the rules, you can spin out, slide out and no person or car should get hurt. There is a slight issue with slicks liking less camber than a dot r, but that can be overcome, especially for learning and having fun. If you do decide to go slicks, run Hoosiers or other tires that are not Goodyear's. Goodyears really like zero camber, while Hoosiers like some negative. I actually put a set of the Beast's slicks on JLO and took it out for a loop on the on/off ramps of my local expressway. Even with street settings the car stuck like glue. I do not believe you would be of danger to anyone at one of our well run and designed AX's. And the slicks are relatively inexpensive and last a very long time (I'm talking bias ply, I do not experience with radial slicks). I don't believe you could drive them to the event but maybe you could. If you are driving and not packing on a trailer, the dot r's with steel belts would be fine. So I'm on record as saying it wouldn't be more dangerous. I'm not saying a certain driver would not be a hazard because that is real life, but I think it's fine. Bill P. |
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| Joe Ricard |
Apr 19 2006, 09:15 PM
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#13
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
Yes Slicks should be a graduation from learn to drive. Learn to driver faster then learn to drive on DOT R tires. By then you have modded the car to the point where slicks will allow faster speeds.
Thats the progression I have gone through. Now running doubled spring rates on poly bushings big sway bar and coil overs. welded up some stiffening stuff. and boy I tell ya R25A Hoosier Slicks are a hoot. 1st 400 ft is slippery then it's like flipping a switch to GRIP like crazy. by the end of the 1st run I had the tires to 130 degrees and the next run was all out nuts. Hot shoe in the honda nearly broke his neck tryingto read the time display. Slicks got me 3 seconds faster on a 45 second course. |
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| Porcharu |
Apr 19 2006, 09:36 PM
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#14
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,314 Joined: 27-January 05 From: Campbell, CA Member No.: 3,518 Region Association: Northern California |
I think the word here is what kind of car? With a sloppy handling stock car slicks or DOT's can be bad news. I have seen 2 cars roll at the Lone pine "auto-x". They used to let anyone run any tire in any class. One guy in 5.0 Mustang with formula ford slicks (WAY overloaded) went into a tank slapper and flipped another in totally stock base model civic with DOT's just barrel rolled in a slalom - went into the turn leaned WAY over and just kept going. The civic driver had never raced before.
These are pretty extreme and shouldn't have even been allowed to run. |
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| jhadler |
Apr 19 2006, 10:02 PM
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#15
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Long term tinkerer... Group: Members Posts: 1,879 Joined: 7-April 03 From: Lyons, CO Member No.: 529 |
Mike,
Addressing your issue about dangerous? It depends...but if we're talking rookie here... If it's a FWD hot-hatch, then it's a recipie for a rollover. If it's a 914, it's a recipie for a spin, some massive flat spots, and a deflated wallet at the end of the day. Slicks don't take kindly to abuse, and will not behave like a conventional radial. More likely than not, if a rookie goes out on slicks, and they attempt to drive hard, the tires will be toast by day's end. If it's leisurely put around the cones, it doesn't matter what kind of tire it is. But if you push it, race tires will push back. -Josh2 |
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| J P Stein |
Apr 19 2006, 10:10 PM
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#16
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
Mike, sometimes I wonder where you come up with some of this stuff.
Me thinks you thinks too much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) EVERYBODY in the SCCA stock classes runs R spec (DOT Rs...whut ever) tires or they get their doors blowed off. All these cars have stock suspension less shocks, which are free. Somehow they get along with having their tiars talk to them....they have well educated butts & quick hands, me thinks. In my experience, both R spec & slick tires are more forgiving when one is exploring the outer limits of traction. No offense intended, but IMO you don't have enuff experience to form a reasoned opinion.....get some & report back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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| iamchappy |
Apr 19 2006, 10:11 PM
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#17
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It all happens so fast! Group: Members Posts: 4,893 Joined: 5-November 03 From: minnetonka, mn Member No.: 1,315 Region Association: Upper MidWest  |
I've been considering a set of Toyo RA 1's for limited street use this summer. I have another set of ES100's on my teletubbies and was thinking of putting the Toyo's on my Fuchs. I can swap them out now and then depending on what my driving plans are for the day.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 19 2006, 10:15 PM
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#18
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Try a set of 710's, Mike.
I've run Falkens, Yoko's, Hoosiers and now the 710's. These are the only ones that recover when a spin seems unavoidable. I have no regrets with these tires. Nathan will run them for the first time this Saturday at Alameda. It'll be fun to watch him push the car to the limit. The real fun will be watching the pit lane celebration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) The 710's grip is unmatched in a DOT in my experience. KT |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 19 2006, 10:24 PM
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#19
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Listen to JP.
Mike I'm trying to remember. Have you run an a/x since April of '04 when I ran for the first time? QUOTE my teletubbies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) KT |
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| DanT |
Apr 19 2006, 10:28 PM
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#20
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 19 2006, 09:15 PM) Try a set of 710's, Mike. I've run Falkens, Yoko's, Hoosiers and now the 710's. These are the only ones that recover when a spin seems unavoidable. I have no regrets with these tires. Nathan will run them for the first time this Saturday at Alameda. It'll be fun to watch him push the car to the limit. The real fun will be watching the pit lane celebration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) The 710's grip is unmatched in a DOT in my experience. KT Just have to see what my old Victoracers will do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Last year TTOD at one GGR AX was by a well preparred 924S on brand new RA1s. All right the car was driven by a 7 or 8 time SCCA champion. Again the driver is probably the bigger factor...tires...car secondary. I think that Mike's querry was more hypothetical than anything.... Slicks on a non-preparred car with a novice driver= danger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) |
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