OT: After-market FI suggestions, I freakin' HATE carbs! Options

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

I'm looking for an after-market fuel injection solution for my VW Squareback. It's a bored-n-stroked 2007cc beast with CompuFire DIS-IX ignition and 40mm Dellorto carbs. Those freakin' carbs are the death of me, I can't stand carbs and tuning them is beyond torture.

I understand FI and find it MUCH simpler and easier to work with, so with that in mind, any personal experienced recommendations? I'm looking for a complete system under $2000 -- I don't need ignition management, just fuel (but if it comes w/it I'll take it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). Laptop tuning would be great but not necessary. I personally think the CB Performance system is too much ($1800) for too little but without actually using it I could be wrong. I know about MegaSquirt but I don't want to build it, just attach it -- or is someone selling completed kits? KitCarlson? Wish there was better info out there on it (since he originally did have it on his Squareback) because it sounds good to me (especially the data logging).

[Mueller]

you might hit up Zois since he is taking off his CB stuff I believe.....

SDS might fit the bill, no laptop, it uses a handheld pendant...I have LINK which I really like, uses a laptop or a pendant...

[Mark Henry]

Fuel only SDS is fairly cheap. But then you need an intake. I like a plenum system better, but I think a stock T3 intake might be a bit small for a 2007.

[Dave_Darling]

How much work are you willing to do? You say you don't want to build MS, but there's a lot of other stuff you will have to do to replace carbs with EFI.

Yes, there are people who sell already-soldered MS boards. You'll still have to work out the wiring, all the fuel plumbing, the air management, and so on. And of course you'll have to program it for your engine. Others can provide programs that are probably pretty close, but you'll still have to do a lot of tuning.

You could go with CIS. Parts should be cheap from a boneyard; look for any 80s or early-90s-vintage European four-banger car as a potential donor. You'll still have to do some work to come up with most of the same stuff I mentioned above... No programming, though.

SDS EFI will sell you a more complete kit. But you'll still have to deal with air management, fuel distribution, and so on. I think they may provide a wiri ng harness or a partly-complete harness. They also may have a pre-loaded program that will let you get started on your own tuning. There are less parameters to tune with them, I believe. (Though the last time I checked on them was a number of years ago.)

Jake sells a specialized version (for the Type IV; is your Square a Type IV conversion?) of the SDS. I don't know exactly what is included. I'm betting it's outside of your price range, though....

Or you could scrounge up the stock EFI parts and tweak from there. You may have to do at least some of that anyway, because that is generally the easiest way to deal with manifolding/air management/fuel distribution/etc.

--DD

[Mark Henry]

Dave it's a type 1/3 I believe.

CIS won't work with your/his cam.

I know of a used LM- 1 wide band meter coming up for sale.....

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Correct, Type 3 engine (yes, Type 1 but with a cooling system similar to the Type 4). Click on my '72 VW Squareback... part of my signature to get more info about her.

Putting everything together (fuel lines, components, wiring, etc.) is nothing for me and I know it's part of the procedure. I find that TUNING fuel injection is far easier for me than tuning carbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Plus all of the other effecientcies that FI has over carbs is nice.

I've looked into CIS but I'm not too crazy about that system. There was a local guy who specialized in CIS conversions and we pretty much figured that putting it on a T3 engine would be a far more trouble than it's worth.

[biggy72]

We've used a performance electronics system on our formula car. It's extremely adjustable and the price is right. I know they're coming out with a newer ecu pretty soon, but I'm not sure how long down the line that is.



http://www.pe-ltd.com/

[dimitri]

VW Bus or Vanagon L jetronic injection from air cooled vans, possible Vanagon
Digifant? Dimitri

[lapuwali]

CIS is actually very nice, but you'd have a hard time fitting it under the engine cover in a Square. You could buy a complete D-Jet setup from a later Square, though you may have some top-end airflow problems since the runners/plenum/throttle body are sized for the 60hp 1600. You can also use MS very easily with the D-Jet parts, which frees you from the need to find a working MPS.

If you do need more airflow, you can look at adding fuel injector bungs to the carb manifolds you have and use the Dells as throttle bodies (relatively cheap), or you can buy a set of TWM IDF-style throttle bodies, which should bolt up to the Dell manifolds (quite expensive, though).

Yes, there are several shops that sell pre-assembled and tested MS ECUs, plus wiring harnesses, connectors, etc. All the electrical stuff can be handled by these places. Look in the vendor section of the msefi.com message boards.

The main thing SDS will buy you is handholding from SDS. With the MS, you have to read the MS boards and hold your own hand, or find someone else familiar with the system to help (like several people on this board). The difference is several hundred dollars, so it's up to you.

No matter how you slice it, you're looking at about $1K to do this, minimum. None of the EFI systems are strictly plug and play. Tuning a setup can take just as long as tuning carbs, you just don't have to get fuel all over your hands doing it. Dealing with an EFI system that's not working can be just as frustrating as dealing with carbs that aren't cooperating.

[Mark Henry]

VW Bus or Vanagon L jetronic injection from air cooled vans, possible Vanagon
Digifant? Dimitri

Again won't work because of the cam.

Toby, please tell them your engine specs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

He WILL need a PEFI system

[Cornholio]

If you have 35 psi injectors rated @ 2.4 ohms I have the CB Performance box.....

[Mark Henry]

...The main thing SDS will buy you is handholding from SDS.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/clown2.gif)

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

VW Bus or Vanagon L jetronic injection from air cooled vans, possible Vanagon
Digifant? Dimitri

Again won't work because of the cam.

Toby, please tell them your engine specs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

He WILL need a PEFI system

Copied from my web page:
2007cc Type 3 air-cooled VW engine. This engine in stock form is 1600cc.

CODE

OEM 40x35.5 ported & polished heads with 3-angle valve job
dual valve springs
8.0:1 compression (one reason she runs warmer than stock)
4063 Dee cam
Pauter 78mm crank, eight doweled to stock flywheel (previous flywheel was lightened but I didn't like it on the highway)
Rimco Super rods
Cima 90.5 pistons and cylinders
dual 40mm bbl Dellorto carbs
009 distributor
CompuFire DIS-IX distributorless ignition system
1.5 inch exhaust header (no heat exchangers), S&S merged collector

Engine was built by a very competent pro off-roader and is a real stump-puller. Dyno'd 91hp at the rear wheels (stock engine is rated at 65bhp). I don't want to get into a discussion about the engine, this is simply to show the engine IS NOT STOCK!

[Dave_Darling]

4063 Dee cam

Whuzzat? Any specs available? Or can you give us an overall description like "mild", "wild", "full-race", or ??? (You said "stump-puller", so I'm guessing it's not immensely wild.)

A mild or very mild cam should work with CIS or L-jet. D-jet would probably require the "very milld" cam only.

Sounds like the pre-assembled MS kit might be a good option. As long as your only real objection is to the actual soldering.

The CB setup, well... I don't care much for it, if it's still the same thing they were advertising years ago. It is simple to tune, I'll give them that (two adjustments, "idle" and "off idle") but that results in not being able to get all that close on the mixture.

--DD

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Sorry DD, mild is all I can tell ya. Soldering is no big deal, it's just a simpler form of welding! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Cam info:
http://www.phnet.fi/public/hefor1/eng/vwinfoca.htm
Look under BugPack, I think that's where it falls.

[ottox914]

I've been researching alot of EFI lately, and will be ordering SDS from Mark. Sure, setting up the crank sensor will be a challenge, but on our 914's, there was a pulley mounted behind the fan for the optional A/C system, I'll dig one of those out and see if it will work to mount the mags. If not, there is a large washer that goes between the crank and fan, I can take that to the local moon light machinist and have it duplicated, just a larger diameter, to put the mags out where they need to be to be seen by the hall sensor. Do a search on our club site for "SDS" in the topic heading, (not the body of the postings, you'll get to many hits) and check out what mark did on his. Add up the costs, a full SDS system with fuel, ignition, and the WMS wideband to allow better tuneing and closed loop management for highway driving is under 2k. No laptop needed. The SDS programmer will now log wideband AFR values to make tuneing even easier. Not as fancy as a Motec, but do you really need all that? The SDS page is packed with TONS of useful info. Allow plenty of time to read it over, and over, and over, and the install will become less daunting, the choice more clear.

My decision has been made. The check is in the mail. Autocross glory awaits.

[Mark Henry]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mueller]

...The main thing SDS will buy you is handholding from SDS.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/clown2.gif)

actually I think James meant that as a positive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

support is a huge factor unless you are an expert...as much as I like the MS, there is no real 100% guaranted support..posting questions on msefti.com is a crap shoot at times, you have to word your question just right and at the right time and place, otherwise you get the chance of getting no response at all....

Support for LINK has been okay, limited hours (luckly same time zone as me), but nothing on the weekends....

[Dave_Darling]

... on our 914's, there was a pulley mounted behind the fan for the optional A/C system ... there is a large washer that goes between the crank and fan...

The pulley replaced the washer on the AC equipped cars. So you're basically talking about the same thing either way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

--DD