I'm looking for an after-market fuel injection solution for my VW Squareback. It's a bored-n-stroked 2007cc beast with CompuFire DIS-IX ignition and 40mm Dellorto carbs. Those freakin' carbs are the death of me, I can't stand carbs and tuning them is beyond torture.

I understand FI and find it MUCH simpler and easier to work with, so with that in mind, any personal experienced recommendations? I'm looking for a complete system under $2000 -- I don't need ignition management, just fuel (but if it comes w/it I'll take it ). Laptop tuning would be great but not necessary. I personally think the CB Performance system is too much ($1800) for too little but without actually using it I could be wrong. I know about MegaSquirt but I don't want to build it, just attach it -- or is someone selling completed kits? KitCarlson? Wish there was better info out there on it (since he originally did have it on his Squareback) because it sounds good to me (especially the data logging).

you might hit up Zois since he is taking off his CB stuff I believe.....

SDS might fit the bill, no laptop, it uses a handheld pendant...I have LINK which I really like, uses a laptop or a pendant...

Fuel only SDS is fairly cheap. But then you need an intake. I like a plenum system better, but I think a stock T3 intake might be a bit small for a 2007.

How much work are you willing to do? You say you don't want to build MS, but there's a lot of other stuff you will have to do to replace carbs with EFI.

Yes, there are people who sell already-soldered MS boards. You'll still have to work out the wiring, all the fuel plumbing, the air management, and so on. And of course you'll have to program it for your engine. Others can provide programs that are probably pretty close, but you'll still have to do a lot of tuning.

You could go with CIS. Parts should be cheap from a boneyard; look for any 80s or early-90s-vintage European four-banger car as a potential donor. You'll still have to do some work to come up with most of the same stuff I mentioned above... No programming, though.

SDS EFI will sell you a more complete kit. But you'll still have to deal with air management, fuel distribution, and so on. I think they may provide a wiri ng harness or a partly-complete harness. They also may have a pre-loaded program that will let you get started on your own tuning. There are less parameters to tune with them, I believe. (Though the last time I checked on them was a number of years ago.)

Jake sells a specialized version (for the Type IV; is your Square a Type IV conversion?) of the SDS. I don't know exactly what is included. I'm betting it's outside of your price range, though....

Or you could scrounge up the stock EFI parts and tweak from there. You may have to do at least some of that anyway, because that is generally the easiest way to deal with manifolding/air management/fuel distribution/etc.

--DD

Dave it's a type 1/3 I believe.

CIS won't work with your/his cam.

I know of a used LM- 1 wide band meter coming up for sale.....

Correct, Type 3 engine (yes, Type 1 but with a cooling system similar to the Type 4). Click on my '72 VW Squareback... part of my signature to get more info about her.

Putting everything together (fuel lines, components, wiring, etc.) is nothing for me and I know it's part of the procedure. I find that TUNING fuel injection is far easier for me than tuning carbs Plus all of the other effecientcies that FI has over carbs is nice.

I've looked into CIS but I'm not too crazy about that system. There was a local guy who specialized in CIS conversions and we pretty much figured that putting it on a T3 engine would be a far more trouble than it's worth.

We've used a performance electronics system on our formula car. It's extremely adjustable and the price is right. I know they're coming out with a newer ecu pretty soon, but I'm not sure how long down the line that is.



http://www.pe-ltd.com/

VW Bus or Vanagon L jetronic injection from air cooled vans, possible Vanagon
Digifant? Dimitri

CIS is actually very nice, but you'd have a hard time fitting it under the engine cover in a Square. You could buy a complete D-Jet setup from a later Square, though you may have some top-end airflow problems since the runners/plenum/throttle body are sized for the 60hp 1600. You can also use MS very easily with the D-Jet parts, which frees you from the need to find a working MPS.

If you do need more airflow, you can look at adding fuel injector bungs to the carb manifolds you have and use the Dells as throttle bodies (relatively cheap), or you can buy a set of TWM IDF-style throttle bodies, which should bolt up to the Dell manifolds (quite expensive, though).

Yes, there are several shops that sell pre-assembled and tested MS ECUs, plus wiring harnesses, connectors, etc. All the electrical stuff can be handled by these places. Look in the vendor section of the msefi.com message boards.

The main thing SDS will buy you is handholding from SDS. With the MS, you have to read the MS boards and hold your own hand, or find someone else familiar with the system to help (like several people on this board). The difference is several hundred dollars, so it's up to you.

No matter how you slice it, you're looking at about $1K to do this, minimum. None of the EFI systems are strictly plug and play. Tuning a setup can take just as long as tuning carbs, you just don't have to get fuel all over your hands doing it. Dealing with an EFI system that's not working can be just as frustrating as dealing with carbs that aren't cooperating.

Again won't work because of the cam.

Toby, please tell them your engine specs

He WILL need a PEFI system

If you have 35 psi injectors rated @ 2.4 ohms I have the CB Performance box.....

Copied from my web page:
2007cc Type 3 air-cooled VW engine. This engine in stock form is 1600cc.


Engine was built by a very competent pro off-roader and is a real stump-puller. Dyno'd 91hp at the rear wheels (stock engine is rated at 65bhp). I don't want to get into a discussion about the engine, this is simply to show the engine IS NOT STOCK!

Whuzzat? Any specs available? Or can you give us an overall description like "mild", "wild", "full-race", or ??? (You said "stump-puller", so I'm guessing it's not immensely wild.)

A mild or very mild cam should work with CIS or L-jet. D-jet would probably require the "very milld" cam only.

Sounds like the pre-assembled MS kit might be a good option. As long as your only real objection is to the actual soldering.

The CB setup, well... I don't care much for it, if it's still the same thing they were advertising years ago. It is simple to tune, I'll give them that (two adjustments, "idle" and "off idle") but that results in not being able to get all that close on the mixture.

--DD

Sorry DD, mild is all I can tell ya. Soldering is no big deal, it's just a simpler form of welding!

Cam info:
http://www.phnet.fi/public/hefor1/eng/vwinfoca.htm
Look under BugPack, I think that's where it falls.

I've been researching alot of EFI lately, and will be ordering SDS from Mark. Sure, setting up the crank sensor will be a challenge, but on our 914's, there was a pulley mounted behind the fan for the optional A/C system, I'll dig one of those out and see if it will work to mount the mags. If not, there is a large washer that goes between the crank and fan, I can take that to the local moon light machinist and have it duplicated, just a larger diameter, to put the mags out where they need to be to be seen by the hall sensor. Do a search on our club site for "SDS" in the topic heading, (not the body of the postings, you'll get to many hits) and check out what mark did on his. Add up the costs, a full SDS system with fuel, ignition, and the WMS wideband to allow better tuneing and closed loop management for highway driving is under 2k. No laptop needed. The SDS programmer will now log wideband AFR values to make tuneing even easier. Not as fancy as a Motec, but do you really need all that? The SDS page is packed with TONS of useful info. Allow plenty of time to read it over, and over, and over, and the install will become less daunting, the choice more clear.

My decision has been made. The check is in the mail. Autocross glory awaits.

actually I think James meant that as a positive

support is a huge factor unless you are an expert...as much as I like the MS, there is no real 100% guaranted support..posting questions on msefti.com is a crap shoot at times, you have to word your question just right and at the right time and place, otherwise you get the chance of getting no response at all....

Support for LINK has been okay, limited hours (luckly same time zone as me), but nothing on the weekends....

The pulley replaced the washer on the AC equipped cars. So you're basically talking about the same thing either way.

--DD

I DID mean that as a positive. Support is expensive to provide, and accounts for most of the price difference. If support is what you think you need (not everyone does), then SDS is the better buy.

Many of the people on the MS boards could design and build their own boards from scratch, so they don't need quite so much support. Oddly, many people who can design boards often can't write code (and the opposite is also true). Quite a few of the people in MS land could write all the code from scratch (and some have), including myself.

I do feel MS has reached a point where it's useful to those who can't do either one, and there's plenty of support on the MS boards. BUT, it's still very much DIY, there are no refunds, you can't bitch at anyone (well, you can, but nobody listens).

I'm am installing a Emerald M3D system. Cost less then $2,000 complete. Get a hold of Mack www.emeraldperformance.com He can get you set up.

Jake Raby was going to test one of these systems. Anyone heard if he did and what he thought?

Sorry James...thought it was a put down... what are you starting to like the system?

Is SDS the best system on the market?
No, Like David said it's not a Motec. It can't control a VTEC, it doesn't have traction control, big spread sheets, it's not waterproof, no sequential injection, etc. They are up-front about this.

EDIT I've been told SDS will run VTEC...not that it matters to this crowd.

But what it does have going for is it's programming simplicity, you don't have to be a geek or need a dyno to program it. One guy driving around can fine tune the program pretty good in about a half hour or so.
Price is competitive and certainly lower than the high-end systems out there
and the price is up-front and on their website.
It's reliable, so it doesn't need a limp home mode. (it's in severial homebuilt planes)
Tech support and service is second to none.
They have a no BS business model, although they have had very few problems they do have bulletins on how to fix or avoid any issues.
They will fix what they sell, of course if it's your bad they will charge you, but I KNOW Ross will eat the shipping (both ways, Fed-Ex) if it's their bad, as I got the only bad WB meter (lambda issue) they've sold. I had a new one in 2 days.
They do have data-logging now and for $94 you can re-chip your older EM-4 or EM-3.
They also have an open forum, you can download their manual, they will support 2nd hand units, I could go on and on.
Every one I've sold has had positive result.

I wish that the rest of the aftermarket were just half as good as these guys.

DD- you are correct about the pulley replacing the big washer. My plan is to check the pulley first to see how it fits relative to the mounting of the hall sensor. If the clearances and diameter are good, I mount the magnets in the pully. If not, I use the washer as a template for the moonlight machinest to build me a more correctly sized mounting surface for the magnets. I plan about a jillion photos, to be uploaded to the SDS site, and of course a thread here that links there, once the project is done. I'm sure curious minds will want to see what happens...

I wasted more time thinking about how to mount the trigger to the fan, flywheel, smog pump, etc.

The disc method was the simplest solution. The 911 crank pulley is almost a bolt on and about the same size as the disc I made. It's just a bit thicker than the spacer washer so something (hub, fan or pulley) would need to be cut down .098.

Nice pic- good info to know. How, if in any way, is this 911 crank pulley different from the pulley that was used on the 914's with the "factory" (dealer installed) A/C systems? If you could, send me one of those 911 pulleys along with my system, and I can see how it fits. This could be a good solution to the crank sensor mounting for our cars.

David, just in case you haven't seen my trigger install look at this thread for some pic's.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=5396

Found that thread a long while ago, while researching systems, and have stared at the pics for hours thinking about doing that to my car...

Back to pulleys- anyone know the difference between the 911 crank pulley in the prior photos and the 914 a/c pulley?

Do we have a going on?

It's okay, even though it doesn't help my T3 engine it's all good

You guys are very helpful, keep this going!

Hey this is our thread!



Ooooops! Doh! sorry for the hijack



Hey you started it....

here are few pictures of the 911 pulley with an EDIS trigger wheel bolted to it...

here is mark's wheel..

Toby, I have an old SDS 4cyl (fuel only) in the basement. I think its a the EM-2D? Was on my Jeep for years. If interested, shoot me an email w/ a phone # and we can chat.

If you don't need ignition, why bother w/ the toothed trigger wheel? The fuel only SDS will trigger off the points/hall output of the dizzy. Thats what I did w/ my jeep. Actually, I ran a MSD-6 off the dizzy and tied the tach output of the MSD into the SDS (=clean signal).

SMD