1973 914 progress, 2.0l engine/rear suspension upgrade/fixing what needs to be fixed Options

['73-914kid]

Follow me along as I venture into type 4 hell as a newbie to VW's!
This thread will show how a V8 guy does a 4 cylinder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)





Okay guys, pulled the engine out last weekend, and today project was disassembling it. I knew it had a knock, and it was super oily, but found out that it had gotten worse that I thought, and had actualy spun a bearing, with another connecting rod getting close to it.

Damage report:
-The crank is a little tweeked, and should be able to be ground to get rid of any evidence of the connecting rod slamming down upon the journal.
-1 cylinder has been scored terribly with 1-2 mm scratches in it. I'm hoping that the KB oversized pistons are big enough to compensate for the scoring to be taken out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
-lots of tiny bits of bearing EVERYWHERE!

The good:
-valve train is in good condition
-cases have NO marring on them
-cam looks good
-connecting rods are perfect

Other than that, it's just goint to be money to get new parts and take the crank in to be ground and possibly rebalanced and tweeked back to alignment.

And now for some pictures.......
(IMG:http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/perfectshot_12/1973%20Porsche%20914/Picture830.jpg)
(IMG:http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/perfectshot_12/1973%20Porsche%20914/Picture832.jpg)
(IMG:http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/perfectshot_12/1973%20Porsche%20914/Picture834.jpg)
(IMG:http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/perfectshot_12/1973%20Porsche%20914/Picture835.jpg)
And here's that god awful FI system.....
(IMG:http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/perfectshot_12/1973%20Porsche%20914/Picture831.jpg)

[Todd Enlund]

The good:
-cam looks good

While you are in there... spend the $$ for a new cam and lifters. In the grand scheme of how much you will spend, it will be money well spent.

[Jake Raby]

Do your homework.

The biggest mistakes we see come from guys with extensive experience of other engines and trying to apply this experience to the TIV engine.

My best advice would be to forget everything you know about V8s except the 4 strokes of the engine as these are the only characteristics they share.

...and I see a crack in one of your heads from here. (seriously) and your thermostat is blown and should be replaced.. Remove those sodium filled exhaust valves and replace them with quality stainless steel items.

I haven't seen a "perfect" stock cam come from a TIV engine in the past 15 years.. Post pics of it and DO NOT RE-USE IT! the cam is the second part installed into the engine and the most critical wear item of a TIV engine. If the cam goes south it's the second to last part you'll remove and replace and a full tear down is required. re-using a cam is like a very nasty game of Russian Roulette.

Read for at least 3 months before you buy the first part and do your home work, I have to help guys out of situations on a weekly basis because of poor decisions during the component selection processes and many of them spend double what the cost of one of my kits cost and they still don't have matched components.

Don't buy a single part until you have measured every single part n that engine and have come up with a map of the project.

I don't want to come across as abrasive, I just want to get the point across on this topic...

With this engine, trying to save a dollar is the fastest way to spend three.


This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 2 2008, 05:17 AM

['73-914kid]

Thanks for the info. My plan was to get a WebCam, and not use this one, as I am looking for just a mild improvement over stock. Can you really see a head crack from that picture? Other than the valves they looked fine to me, but then again, I'm new to air-cooled parts. Tell me where you think it's at and I'll get a better picture. So I seem to be understanding that this could cost upwards of 3-4k to get it running?
Here's the parts I've come up with so far Jake:
-KB pistons from your website
-WebCam (not sure how aggressive to go for the street to allow me to run Webers)


As you can see the list is short.....any advise from you is very appreciated!

[Todd Enlund]

Here's the parts I've come up with so far Jake:
-KB pistons from your website
-WebCam (not sure how aggressive to go for the street to allow me to run Webers)


As you can see the list is short.....any advise from you is very appreciated!

Jake could tell you way better than I, but, at a minimum:

-main bearings
-rod bearings
-cam bearings
-gasket set
-pushrod tube seals
-oil seal
-rear main seal
-timing gear for the cam
-cam plug
-oil galley plugs
-lifters
-valves
-valve springs
-retainers
-machine work on the heads, crank and rods

My list is longer than this, but I think this pretty much covers the essentials.

[Jake Raby]

Yes. I do see a crack in those heads, even though they are dirty. I might be wrong, but thus far I have a 100% accuracy rate for picking out cracked chambers here on the forums. Clean them up and bead blast them and then let me look at those pics.

If you wanted a comprehensive list of whats needed the list of components that come with my engine kits can be referenced because I feel these are the minimum components that need to be used to properly "rebuild" one of these engines today, some 32 years after the last 914 engine was made new.

If you do the job correctly there isn't a lot of parts that you'll be able to reuse. Look at my engine kit presentations and you'll see how serious I take the reconstruction of these engines.

['73-914kid]

Okay guys.....everything is entirely apart in the engine.
I'll try to keep working this weekend even without any parts. Then again, the engine bay needs to be cleaned....

So, I know I'm beating the dead donkey with this question, but can the camshaft be reused at all, even with new lifters? I'm in awe that a newer camshaft (Sneider I h=think you said?) would fatigue so terribly that it couldn't be reused...I just don't get that. Yes, I need a new crank, yes I need new cylinders and pistons, and yes I need to rebuild the heads.....but the cam seems like it's fine. I plan on taking it to the VW performance shop 10 minutes away and see what they think.

Work will continue this weekend, but just thought I'd put this out there.

[Todd Enlund]

Okay guys.....everything is entirely apart in the engine.
I'll try to keep working this weekend even without any parts. Then again, the engine bay needs to be cleaned....

So, I know I'm beating the dead donkey with this question, but can the camshaft be reused at all, even with new lifters? I'm in awe that a newer camshaft (Sneider I h=think you said?) would fatigue so terribly that it couldn't be reused...I just don't get that. Yes, I need a new crank, yes I need new cylinders and pistons, and yes I need to rebuild the heads.....but the cam seems like it's fine. I plan on taking it to the VW performance shop 10 minutes away and see what they think.

Work will continue this weekend, but just thought I'd put this out there.

It's not fatigue, it's wear. The cam lobes and lifters will develop a wear pattern, and if you swap the lifters around, you're rolling the dice as to whether the wear patterns will be compatible or destructive. I would think that with a new set of lifters, you'd be okay, but...

...an aftermarket cam is one of the big steps that you can take to increase performance. If money is tight, shop around. I got an unused Web #163 for $72.

[McMark]

Possible cracks...

['73-914kid]

Okay, well I got the heads guoted for $600 for a full rebuild. $200 for a used reground cam and $250 for the honing of my cylinders to 96mm with KB pistons.

This is actually looking do-able for under $3k.

BTW: those are not cracks....the cylinder heads have so much carbon build up that some of it cracked away, leaving the impression of a crack in the aluminum.

[Jake Raby]

I'll bet you 50 bucks there is a crack in at least one of the chambers or exhaust ports in each head. If they haven't been found you haven't looked hard enough or you haven't inspected the heads at above room temperature where cracks really start to open up. Does your rebuilder include valve seats in that price? If not the heads aren't fully rebuilt !

200 for a used reground cam is not a good deal, maybe 50 bucks would be or maybe 75! I charge less than that for my new cams! IF the cam is reground but isn't re heat treated you can expect failures since the stock heat treat only penetrates about .020 into the cam blank. When you regrind the cam you also MUST use a stock reground lifter which also must be re heat treated and reground with the proper crown radii to match the lobe taper of the camshaft.

I spent 2 years and over 20K bucks to create wear solutions for cams and lifers- this is THE most critical aspect of the TIV engine undoubtedly.

250.00 for opening those cylinders is also not a good deal, when I offered the service I did it for less than that, its only worth 180.00 at max. Does your machine shop have a torque plate to bore the cylinders under load? if not they'll destroy the cylinders as the dimensions will change under torque loads.

Remember- trying to save a buck is the fastest way to spend 3.

What good is doing this for under 3K if you have to spend another 2K to repair the mistakes that can be made if this is done at anything less than comprehensively?

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 7 2008, 09:34 PM

['73-914kid]

Oh dangit.....sorry guys. I was so focused on finding more information about camshafts, that I made a typo.....$200 was for a reground CRANK. dangit

And honestly Raby, I'm unaware if these are the actual prices.....? My dad talked to him and he has the worst repeating information skills out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I know I'm gonna have to call the guy myself to get the actual prices and/or information on what all he thinks should be done.

[Jake Raby]

Thats more like it, BUT 200 is even steep for a reground crank, unless your core is trashed. Most cranks don't need more than a repolish unless they have seen a bearing failure.

['73-914kid]

Thats more like it, BUT 200 is even steep for a reground crank, unless your core is trashed. Most cranks don't need more than a repolish unless they have seen a bearing failure.

This crank is TOAST I believe. It saw a bearing failure (one bearing went, and another was getting ready to! It was run for that long with a knock), rather severe, and the crank is tweeked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) . Sadly I don't see how it could be reground back to specs.

Man, going over prices and such, and doing more and more homework, I'm starting to hate TIV'S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Just kidding...........to a certain extent.

Maybe I'll do a Suby or SBC conversion....I'm sure you love me for doing that would you Raby? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)





On a more serious note, I may be looking into a -6 conversion. I can get a rather nice 2.0l -6 out of a 911 in return for a SBC 327 from a good friend. In theory I'd be getting this engine for free as the 327 is just sitting and I have no empty engine bays for it......(minus the 914..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) )I have the plans and drawings to make fibre glass engine tin, and would only really have to fork out $375 for an engine mount and the other sums of $$$ that would go along with getting one hooked up (exhaust, oil and electrical)

Any ideas on this type of conversion guys, because I'm honestly scared of rebuilding this 2.0l TIV and spending WAY more money than I initially expected, where I pretty much have a checklist of conversion bits and pieces rather than a list on how to build a working TIV!

[Ericv1]

Thats more like it, BUT 200 is even steep for a reground crank, unless your core is trashed. Most cranks don't need more than a repolish unless they have seen a bearing failure.

This crank is TOAST I believe. It saw a bearing failure (one bearing went, and another was getting ready to! It was run for that long with a knock), rather severe, and the crank is tweeked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) . Sadly I don't see how it could be reground back to specs.

Man, going over prices and such, and doing more and more homework, I'm starting to hate TIV'S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Just kidding...........to a certain extent.

Maybe I'll do a Suby or SBC conversion....I'm sure you love me for doing that would you Raby? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)





On a more serious note, I may be looking into a -6 conversion. I can get a rather nice 2.0l -6 out of a 911 in return for a SBC 327 from a good friend. In theory I'd be getting this engine for free as the 327 is just sitting and I have no empty engine bays for it......(minus the 914..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) )I have the plans and drawings to make fibre glass engine tin, and would only really have to fork out $375 for an engine mount and the other sums of $$$ that would go along with getting one hooked up (exhaust, oil and electrical)

Any ideas on this type of conversion guys, because I'm honestly scared of rebuilding this 2.0l TIV and spending WAY more money than I initially expected, where I pretty much have a checklist of conversion bits and pieces rather than a list on how to build a working TIV!

A 2.0L out of a 911 is going to be 39 years old. What's the condition because if you think a Type 4 is expensive to rebuild correctly, a six is almost double the price. Then, there's the conversion parts aside from the motor that add up to roughly $4,000 for new. You obviously could get conversion parts cheaper if you waited for some good deals. But, with the R@D that Raby's done, I see no reason to convert to a 2.0L six. He offers more HP and torque across the full RPM spectrum for less than a six conversion.The horse power may push around 130 with the engine your suggesting. This of coarse is just my opinion. Eric

[Todd Enlund]

Any ideas on this type of conversion guys, because I'm honestly scared of rebuilding this 2.0l TIV and spending WAY more money than I initially expected, where I pretty much have a checklist of conversion bits and pieces rather than a list on how to build a working TIV!

The oil tank for a /6 is $1k. Carbs? Exhaust? Sounds cheap up front, but you'll get in deep quick. Plus, a 2.0 /6 at it's best won't give you much over a good 2056, and it weighs more.

I went through the engine decision, and decided on the type 4. Conversions are tempting, and impressive if done well... but they cost $$$ to do well. If your budget is tight, stick with the type 4 rebuild and shop around for parts. Deals are out there if you are patient and persistent. That's what I'm doing. So far, I've spent $258.71 and saved $761.79 over what the parts would have cost from retail sources.

If your crank is shot, find a core engine. You can get a 1.7 core for less than $100, and build a nice 1911 out of it with your 2.0 heads. Or, find a 2.0 core... they are out there for $300-$400.

[messix]

a 1911 would really be a great fun engine, short stroke/big bore high rev motor.
if your going to go carbs raby would have a really good cam set up that would make a screamer motor. i think he had some kind of kit or concept of a 1911 that made really good power. and pretty cheap to.

['73-914kid]

Okay.....so do I understand you guys right? I can put a 1.7l crank in my case, use the 2.0l heads, get big bore 96mm pistons? Will this work? Because man, I LOVE RPM's! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
Kinda like the old trans am mustangs that ran 302's and 289's.....short stroke, decent size piston =8-9k RPM.
How much could a 1.7 crank and 96mm pistons take?

Honestly, Raby has me scared straight that my heads are scrap.......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) so.......that outcome will wether or not the VW guy can tell if something is wrong with them.

What kind of cam would you recomend for 40IDF webers Jake?
I think my sneider cam will have to be left behind on this build....

Thanks for the realization on a -6 conversion guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Todd Enlund]

Honestly, Raby has me scared straight that my heads are scrap.......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

They have cracks. They all do. They can be repaired.

And yes, a 1.7 crank with 96mm jugs gives you a 1911.

[Jake Raby]

Maybe I'll do a Suby or SBC conversion....I'm sure you love me for doing that would you Raby?

Nope- I no longer give a damn if people want to bastardize their vehicle.

What matters most to me is that you do not experience a TIV engine failure and if that means that you don't build a TIV then so be it.

Go ahead and chop up the car and add what ever engine you want. You can sell all your TIV engine components to a Type 1, 356 or 912 convert that will appreciate them for the superiority they have.

Chop that bitch up and have a blast!