356SC 2.0L in my 914, have some questions... Options

[Nor.Cal.914]

My current 1.8 Type IV in my 914 is in need of a rebuild and I want to get it out of the car fast. I just received a freshly rebuilt 2.0L from a 356SC (Type I ??)for free this weekend and I am planning on putting it into my 914 as a temporary fix until I can fully rebuild my 1.8. I'm posting here with a few questions:
1. Do I have to use the 356 flywheel and clutch assembly or is there a way to run the flywheel and clutch assembly from the 914? The flywheel looks like it is held on by a single center nut on the 356 engine so I assume Type IV flywheels will not bolt up to this engine?
2. Is there a difference between a flywheel for a 6V system vs. a 12V system? Are there more or less teeth on the ring gear for a 6V system compared to a 12V? I only question this because maybe there are more teeth on a 6V system to be able to spin the engine faster?
And finally, is there anything else I should know that has to be done to make this engine work? Like I said, this is only a temporary fix until I can fully rebuild my 1.8L Type IV so I would just like some help on finding out what I need to know to make this engine work. Thanks!
-Chris

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Also, I was told that the 901 will bolt up to a 356 engine so I am hoping that means there is a way to make this all work!

[markb]

I would think you could put the 356SC motor on the Samba for sale, and take the money & buy another engine for the 914. I think there are more problems getting that motor in the 914 than it's worth, and those 356 guys love finding those motors.

[Nor.Cal.914]

I would think you could put the 356SC motor on the Samba for sale, and take the money & buy another engine for the 914. I think there are more problems getting that motor in the 914 than it's worth, and those 356 guys love finding those motors.

If it does turn out to be too much trouble I might end up doing that, but I would like to find out everything involved first before deciding on whether or not I want to do that. I think it would be pretty fun to try and make it work, but we'll see. Thanks
-Chris

[Jake Raby]

I hope this is a joke.... I really, really do.

[Nor.Cal.914]

I hope this is a joke.... I really, really do.

That is why I didn't want to post here with this, but I thought people would be decent enough to at least answer my questions. I didn't post this to find out what people think, I just want a couple questions answered if it's not too much to ask. I know people here are extremely knowledgeable and I like posting here with questions knowing that you guys always come through with a helpful answer! Thanks
-Chris

[Cap'n Krusty]

You want answers? Here goes. A 356 engine is 80-100 HP 1.6L, not 2.0L. It's also not a Type 1. HUGE difference! Common big bore applications bring it up to like 1720ccs. The engines are fragile, and broken cranks are not uncommon. A proper rebuild with good (but not "top") quality parts and labor can EASILY top $10K. Going first rate can be $14-15K. To accommodate coupling one to a 914 transaxle requires a 912 flywheel and clutch. Flywheels are a dime a dozen, relatively speaking, as a great many 912 engines have either gone into 356s or gone to engine heaven. 912 clutches have gotten uncomfortably pricey.

6 volt starter ring gears are smaller in diameter than 12 volt ones, and have fewer teeth. A 12v ring gear installed on a flywheel and fitted to a 356 transmission will interfere with the bell housing.

As far as making it work in a 914, you'll need a 12v generator and regulator. As the small diameter 12v generators are nearly NLA in any form, you'll need a generator stand for the larger generator ('68-'69 912) and the associated generator tin. You'll need to figure out a way to attach a home fabricated motor mount to the front of the engine, and there is no place on the case to fasten it. That means you'll need to fit and pin a 912 front cover to the engine. Doable, IF you know what you're doing. THEN you have to build the mount. Finally, you'll have to fabricate an engine compartment air seal between the engine and the body. Any air going up or down around the engine is not good, and will contribute to overheating. You'll have to fabricate an exhaust system from scratch, because there aren't any out there that I've ever heard of.

This all assumes the fan shroud will even clear the engine lid and/or the rain tray.

All this stuff applies to a T1 engine, EXCEPT, you'll have to buy a custom made T1/T4 adapter flywheel and a special clutch. A 2L T1 engine is apt to be AT LEAST as fragile as a 356/912 engine, BTW.

There you go, everything you wanted to know, most of which you didn't really want to know .................... The Cap'n

[r_towle]

A running unknown (rebuilt by an amateur) 356 motor would be considered a core motor, or at the very least a spare motor.

First, post a few good pictures of the motor and the serial number of the motor so we can tell you if its a 356 motor or a 912 motor.
There will be a significant price difference on the used market.
912 motors are considered spares.
Real 356 motors with the correct numbers on the case, and the third piece can bring decent money
Older 356 motors can bring real money...even used.
A used 912 motor might pull 2-3k
A used 356 motor might get you 5k...more if you find the guy who owns the car that matches that motor...or a car that is the right year...and he needs a motor.
Older motors, rare motors bring more...

Sell the motor on the 356 registry, NOT the samba.

If you want quick cash...PM me. I might be able to get it off your hands locally FAST.

If you want some more details, post pics.

You could sell the motor for the right price and buy a decent motor to work in your car....and save alot of head scratching.

Rich

[davep]

I just received a freshly rebuilt 2.0L from a 356SC (Type I ??)for free

I think the lack of respect you got was because of the lack of research you did to start with. First off, a 356SC engine is far from a type 1 motor; yes they both are flat fours, but that is about it. A freshly rebuilt 356SC motor is about $20K, and no one gives them away free. A 356SC motor is 1600cc, not 2.0L; the only 356C motor of 2.0L displacement is a Carrera motor worth upwards of $100K, again not given away free. So to start with, what kind of an engine have you really got?

Considering what the Krusty one says, trade the free engine for any type 4 motor you can find.

[type47]

I hope I didn't read this too fast to see if this had been mentioned. The above information is coming from some experts and they are really trying to help, however they appear to have replied. The problem I see with your situation is the exhaust system. Type IV motors have the exhaust come out the underside of the engine, basically, the exhaust exits toward the ground. A 356, and a Type I also to my knowledge, exits the exhaust out of the ends of the heads in a horizontal to the ground direction. That means, if you install the 356 motor, you have to custom fabricate an exhaust and to me, that would exceed the cost of a Type IV rebuild. My recommendation: verify that it is indeed a 356 and not a VW type I motor, then sell it and use the money to rebuild the type IV. I've seen 2.0L type IV's for sale here for $1000 for a plug-and-play motor.

[ME733]

Yes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) and If the 356 engine is actually a 356 SC.(confermation by crankcase,timing case numbers).its one of the most VALUABLE of all the 356 engines made....Therefore...selling the engine...will produce FUNDS/cashorama/moola/MONEY!!!!...of sufficient quantity to let you afford a very good,nicely built 914 engine and all the accessories it may need, exhaust, muffler,etc,etc..you may even have enough money left over to buy everyone here a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) .certainly enought to congratulate yourself on how SMART YOU WERE!. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[Joe Bob]

If you think it's harsh here....try asking about a Type IV engine in a 356 on the 356 Registry. Yer ass will have blisters....

[r_towle]

If you think it's harsh here....try asking about a Type IV engine in a 356 on the 356 Registry. Yer ass will have blisters....

What...are we bored...

Lets go have some fun...

I have this old bent window cabriolet I have been thinking about putting a mid engine chevy motor in it...
How would you go about cutting the frame to fit the motor??

Rich

[Cap'n Krusty]

If you think it's harsh here....try asking about a Type IV engine in a 356 on the 356 Registry. Yer ass will have blisters....

What...are we bored...

Lets go have some fun...

I have this old bent window cabriolet I have been thinking about putting a mid engine chevy motor in it...
How would you go about cutting the frame to fit the motor??

Rich

Plasma cutter, definitely. Sawzall's too unmanageable for such delicate work.

The Cap'n

[sww914]

I don't think you need to cut, Rich. I think you can get it in by just heating with a rose bud and a big sledge to move the metal out of the way.
It worked on the firewall of my S-10 when I put a SBC in it.
After that, a bit of undercoating and you'll be there.
Man, I wish I still had that truck.

[Nor.Cal.914]

You want answers? Here goes. A 356 engine is 80-100 HP 1.6L, not 2.0L. It's also not a Type 1. HUGE difference! Common big bore applications bring it up to like 1720ccs. The engines are fragile, and broken cranks are not uncommon. A proper rebuild with good (but not "top") quality parts and labor can EASILY top $10K. Going first rate can be $14-15K. To accommodate coupling one to a 914 transaxle requires a 912 flywheel and clutch. Flywheels are a dime a dozen, relatively speaking, as a great many 912 engines have either gone into 356s or gone to engine heaven. 912 clutches have gotten uncomfortably pricey.

6 volt starter ring gears are smaller in diameter than 12 volt ones, and have fewer teeth. A 12v ring gear installed on a flywheel and fitted to a 356 transmission will interfere with the bell housing.

As far as making it work in a 914, you'll need a 12v generator and regulator. As the small diameter 12v generators are nearly NLA in any form, you'll need a generator stand for the larger generator ('68-'69 912) and the associated generator tin. You'll need to figure out a way to attach a home fabricated motor mount to the front of the engine, and there is no place on the case to fasten it. That means you'll need to fit and pin a 912 front cover to the engine. Doable, IF you know what you're doing. THEN you have to build the mount. Finally, you'll have to fabricate an engine compartment air seal between the engine and the body. Any air going up or down around the engine is not good, and will contribute to overheating. You'll have to fabricate an exhaust system from scratch, because there aren't any out there that I've ever heard of.

This all assumes the fan shroud will even clear the engine lid and/or the rain tray.

All this stuff applies to a T1 engine, EXCEPT, you'll have to buy a custom made T1/T4 adapter flywheel and a special clutch. A 2L T1 engine is apt to be AT LEAST as fragile as a 356/912 engine, BTW.

There you go, everything you wanted to know, most of which you didn't really want to know .................... The Cap'n

Well that about sums up my options then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I appreciate you taking the time to tell me all of this though, that is extremely helpful info! How much do 912 flywheel/clutch/pressure plate assemblies run for? I'm sure it's more than it's worth, but I'm still curious to know. Thanks
-Chris

[URY914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Nor.Cal.914]

A running unknown (rebuilt by an amateur) 356 motor would be considered a core motor, or at the very least a spare motor.

First, post a few good pictures of the motor and the serial number of the motor so we can tell you if its a 356 motor or a 912 motor.
There will be a significant price difference on the used market.
912 motors are considered spares.
Real 356 motors with the correct numbers on the case, and the third piece can bring decent money
Older 356 motors can bring real money...even used.
A used 912 motor might pull 2-3k
A used 356 motor might get you 5k...more if you find the guy who owns the car that matches that motor...or a car that is the right year...and he needs a motor.
Older motors, rare motors bring more...

Sell the motor on the 356 registry, NOT the samba.

If you want quick cash...PM me. I might be able to get it off your hands locally FAST.

If you want some more details, post pics.

You could sell the motor for the right price and buy a decent motor to work in your car....and save alot of head scratching.

Rich

I see... Well I did some more researching of myself and discovered my initial post was way wrong. The motor is a 356C 1.6L from a 1965. It was taken apart and just "refreshed" rather than rebuilt. The engine was put together by my grandfather who has been working on Porsche engines for over 20 years so I believe he is a little bit better than an amateur engine builder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I might be selling the motor, but again I'm going to go over my options first before I make my final decision. Also, I will post pictures in the next couple hours. Thanks
-Chris

[Nor.Cal.914]

I just received a freshly rebuilt 2.0L from a 356SC (Type I ??)for free

I think the lack of respect you got was because of the lack of research you did to start with. First off, a 356SC engine is far from a type 1 motor; yes they both are flat fours, but that is about it. A freshly rebuilt 356SC motor is about $20K, and no one gives them away free. A 356SC motor is 1600cc, not 2.0L; the only 356C motor of 2.0L displacement is a Carrera motor worth upwards of $100K, again not given away free. So to start with, what kind of an engine have you really got?

Considering what the Krusty one says, trade the free engine for any type 4 motor you can find.

The lack of research was due to the fact that I was handed the motor this weekend and I was just too excited to want to look anything up, but rather go on what I thought would be necessary along with asking some questions on this forum. And the engine was given to me by my grandfather who had a 356C that he sold a couple years back so that was the only reason I got it for free. Thanks
-Chris

[Nor.Cal.914]

I hope I didn't read this too fast to see if this had been mentioned. The above information is coming from some experts and they are really trying to help, however they appear to have replied. The problem I see with your situation is the exhaust system. Type IV motors have the exhaust come out the underside of the engine, basically, the exhaust exits toward the ground. A 356, and a Type I also to my knowledge, exits the exhaust out of the ends of the heads in a horizontal to the ground direction. That means, if you install the 356 motor, you have to custom fabricate an exhaust and to me, that would exceed the cost of a Type IV rebuild. My recommendation: verify that it is indeed a 356 and not a VW type I motor, then sell it and use the money to rebuild the type IV. I've seen 2.0L type IV's for sale here for $1000 for a plug-and-play motor.

I figured I might have to have exhaust custom fabricated but I also (possibly stupidly) thought I could maybe just switch sides and make the J-tubes point their opposite directions. Not sure that it would work, but again it was just a "quick-fix" thought I had come up with. Thanks
-Chris

[Nor.Cal.914]

If you think it's harsh here....try asking about a Type IV engine in a 356 on the 356 Registry. Yer ass will have blisters....

It's not really "harsh," I just knew that I wouldn't get the nicest response when I decided to post this. But again, I was looking for a quick fix that I didn't know anything about and I came here with questions knowing that you guys would supply me with the responses I needed. Thanks
-Chris