SDS VS MS, I would like to figure this one out?????? Options

[toon1]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a thread to argue bash or to say yours is better than mine.

I would like to learn what the difference is!

I am an MS user and happy with it, if SDS will fuel an engine better, I would like to find out why!

I have been following Daves thread about MS not fueling his engine well enough. There are dyno results proving this, can they be posted with the reasons why MS fails to provide an engine with what it needs?

I have been to SDS's site and cannot find any reason why it would fuel an engine better.

Is it the simplicity of setup?
Is it that SDS has 16x16 fuel tables?
Is SDS's processor faster?


I'm sure if MS was capable of doing the same as SDS, Jake would have figured it out.

I would like to learn differences!

AGAIN, no bashing, just learning.

Keith

[DNHunt]

I guess I would challenge the dyno results at least with my engine. MS never made it on the dyno.

Here's my take. None of the these knocks against MS are insurmountable but, they are potential pitfalls that aren't a concern with SDS.

I have some assembly issues. 1)MS is homemade and it depends on the skill of the assembler. 2)Solder flux is acidic and if not cleaned well the board will deteriorate.

Installation is realatively difficult because of the wide variety of applications and the number of options. This may be the biggest challenge. It was my wiring harness that let me down at Jake's.

Tuning is way out of control with MS. It can be daunting looking at all the menus. Some of the stuff is a crap shoot cause it's not explained well. Changes are made frequently as a lot of code is experimental.

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

Granted, all this stuff can be overcome but, in my case I have a lot invested in my motor (and Jake and Charles may have more invested in it). After spending a morning troubleshooting no rpm signal to the MS board, I decided to go with something I could depend on so, I switched.

SDS is far simpler, it's easy to tune and the tune is stable with increasing temps.

Dave

[agrump]

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

I found that the stock Bosch sensor suffered from heat soak, after swapping it for a GM open cage sensor that problem disappeared. Now I'm only getting a very small change in AFR's based on air intake temps that seems somewhat random. On the other hand, I see a definite trend that AFR's get richer as the head temperatures increase. The clt (head sensor) isn't used by MS after warmup so I have no idea why it is happening. I don't know if the SDS system has the same problem.

[Mark Henry]

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

I found that the stock Bosch sensor suffered from heat soak, after swapping it for a GM open cage sensor that problem disappeared. Now I'm only getting a very small change in AFR's based on air intake temps that seems somewhat random. On the other hand, I see a definite trend that AFR's get richer as the head temperatures increase. The clt (head sensor) isn't used by MS after warmup so I have no idea why it is happening. I don't know if the SDS system has the same problem.

No SDS doesn't have any head temp/heat soak issues. It uses std. bosch head temp sender, same as in the stock L or d-jet. On my wideband A/F values are rock soild were I set them 12.5 to 13:1, my old cammed 2.0 and stock 1.8 had/have head temps just barely over 300F.

I've had no tuning issues, in fact when I sold my 2.0 and stuck in my stock 1.8 it took me only about 10-15min to change my map and tune, as I drove alone by myself. Try doing that with any other system.
BTW I then took the programmer and WB out of the car and drove 2 seasons without ever looking at my WB, no problems.

Just looking at that table gives me a headache...and that's not even the map. Too much information.

BTW I got the upgrade chip kit for my 4F, so now I'll be able to datalog and see my WB values with my fuel value.

[agrump]

No SDS doesn't have any head temp/heat soak issues. It uses std. bosch head temp sender, same as in the stock L or d-jet. On my wideband A/F values are rock soild were I set them 12.5 to 13:1, my old cammed 2.0 and stock 1.8 had/have head temps just barely over 300F.

Hell, if I set up my maps as 12.5 I wouldn't notice it either, but at 15-16 cruise it starts to stand out as an oddity.

[Mark Henry]

Hell, if I set up my maps as 12.5 I wouldn't notice it either, but at 15-16 cruise it starts to stand out as an oddity.

I can do that, but on a T4 you can watch the head temps climb fast as soon as you start lean it out a cruise. Best I've hit is about 14:1 without the temps getting up there.
I can say for sure that's your heat soak issue and if you keep doing it it will waste your engine.

Your system and WB is only part of the package, you need to know your head and oil temps as well. This is not an option.


Jake, it's the 44's or SDS...never said anything different....I don't have time to waste on messing with anything else. Time is money.

[agrump]

I can do that, but on a T4 you can watch the head temps climb fast as soon as you start lean it out a cruise. Best I've hit is about 14:1 without the temps getting up there.
I can say for sure that's your heat soak issue and if you keep doing it it will waste your engine.

Your system and WB is only part of the package, you need to know your head and oil temps as well. This is not an option.

My CLT's run around 300 and oil just breaks 170 right now but it's still cool here, last summer was around 360 and 220 but with a different exhaust. Clt measured at the plug, oil in the standard location.

It's an interesting repeatable trend and I would like to see other people's data on it. It hasn't caused a driveability issue but I'm curious as to whether this is a characteristic of aircooled motors or MS. Does SDS not do this?

[yarin]

Hey Dean,

Can you please post your spark tables? I believe i'm running a bit too advanced, my head temps are high. Nice app.

I ran my air temp sensor in a custom intake pipe, no heat soak issues since it's mounted to PVC.