DISCLAIMER: This is not a thread to argue bash or to say yours is better than mine.

I would like to learn what the difference is!

I am an MS user and happy with it, if SDS will fuel an engine better, I would like to find out why!

I have been following Daves thread about MS not fueling his engine well enough. There are dyno results proving this, can they be posted with the reasons why MS fails to provide an engine with what it needs?

I have been to SDS's site and cannot find any reason why it would fuel an engine better.

Is it the simplicity of setup?
Is it that SDS has 16x16 fuel tables?
Is SDS's processor faster?


I'm sure if MS was capable of doing the same as SDS, Jake would have figured it out.

I would like to learn differences!

AGAIN, no bashing, just learning.

Keith

I think that megasquirt is a great system, but in some ways has too many options. Some people to get in over their head when tuning it, because it has so much flexibility. As for fueling an engine, all systems are pretty simple, and do the same thing. The sds is simple, and pretty much plug and play. I am sure Jake could make megasquirt work fine. But as he has posted before, most megasquirts are in kit form, and you cant control the build quality. He could sell a system, then have someone buy it, load different software on it, blow their engine and blame him for selling it. When companies sell products the ultimately need to support them, with sds, he knows he has support.

To summarize, both systems will exceed your needs. However MS gives you a tons of settings and adjustments figures. Aside from Dave, I've yet to hear of another person with major issues such as dave's. The other variable in MS is that YOU assemble it. What may look good on the stim, may in reality be problematic when actually driving injectors. Ask me how i know I had a tiny solder or flux bridge that took me 3 months to find. One injector bank would essentially get 50% less current than the other.

All in all, MS is a great system for those that really want to get into the inner workings of an engine management system AND are on a budget. If you want something plug and play and have the $$, go SDS.

On another note, we're installing a Haltech E6K on my brother's 951. He bought the unit for $500. Granted it's 6-7 years old, but it gets the job done.

In terms of MS support, you are limited to posting on a forum. You are paying for support when you buy SDS or any other system. I can't justify switching over, i'm happy as is. It's been a HUGE learning experience for me, if I had to do it again I would. Time is another thing...

I wouldn't call SDS plug 'n play. Might be nothing compared to a MS, but still a lot of work to install it right.

But...they are real simple to tune....no dyno time is really needed to get it working good. I even got it running pretty good without a wideband, wouldn't try it now that I have one, but I did do it. (I do have lots of carb experience though).

See my sig for SDS install thread. I went that way because it had everything I needed, and nothing I didn't. It was easier to install than I thought, but I'm kind of mental about 2x 3x checking and thinking things thru 200x 300x times before doing it, so the install went well, considering that it was the first time I installed it in the real world, but had done the install a million times in my head. The learning curve on the MS with all the options and configuration seemed to offer alot of chances for an oops. The SDS, while a little challenging to install, really was plug and play. The car started on the first attempt and settled into a smooth idle. Amazing. I could drive it around the block. After all the planning, it took less than 1 day to physically install and drive. And during all the planning, and once or twice since, I called the co. in Canada. Nice guys. They speak the same english I do, are availible during the hours I'm awake and working on the car, and are more than happy to help. Best customer service I have had on anything.

The challenge of building the MS was a potential draw for me- I like a good project, as my sig links will attest to, however the speed that the SDS went in, the ease of programming, well, as much fun as a good project is, driving your car rather than looking for a weak solder joint is WAY more fun.

My .02.

I guess I would challenge the dyno results at least with my engine. MS never made it on the dyno.

Here's my take. None of the these knocks against MS are insurmountable but, they are potential pitfalls that aren't a concern with SDS.

I have some assembly issues. 1)MS is homemade and it depends on the skill of the assembler. 2)Solder flux is acidic and if not cleaned well the board will deteriorate.

Installation is realatively difficult because of the wide variety of applications and the number of options. This may be the biggest challenge. It was my wiring harness that let me down at Jake's.

Tuning is way out of control with MS. It can be daunting looking at all the menus. Some of the stuff is a crap shoot cause it's not explained well. Changes are made frequently as a lot of code is experimental.

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

Granted, all this stuff can be overcome but, in my case I have a lot invested in my motor (and Jake and Charles may have more invested in it). After spending a morning troubleshooting no rpm signal to the MS board, I decided to go with something I could depend on so, I switched.

SDS is far simpler, it's easy to tune and the tune is stable with increasing temps.

Dave

One thing I would think about is how many aircraft are flying on MS?
How about SDS? (Take a look at the SDS site)

These guys (inclueding the owners of SDS) don't only depend on it for their engines life...

I use SDS exclusively based on the user interface it provides.

Most of my turn key engine customers are professionals, they are not mechanics and are looking to EFI for the benefits it offers for tuning and less maintenance. They do not want or need to learn software to tune their engine.

SDS provides this and it also provides absolute reliability. I have converted all but one of my vehicles to SDS and have been driving these vehicles every day for the past 5 solid years. Not once has SWDS ever left me stranded.

SDS does have a very high concentration of units used for aircraft use. Not much else has to be said of any component that is "Air worthy" as 90% of the other parts within the engine don't meet that criteria!

The guys at SDS have unparalleled support. I have used Motec, Autronic and most every other system at least once and no one's support even comes close to SDS. I have literally stayed on the phone with an SDS rep for 4 hours in the past when I had a glitch with my dyno having interference from the what we thought was the SDS.

I have nothing good to say about MS, so I will refrain from saying anything at all.

If I remember correctly you should use rosin core solder for electronic applications. Acid core is for pipes, radiators, and heater cores.

When I did board soldering in my electronics classes years ago we never used any additional flux.

Yes that is correct. Standard temp for hobby/standard temp applications is 60/40 rosin core solder. No additional flux needed. However, a byproduct of the soldering process is always flux. The average person does not have an ultrasonic bath to clean boards with. The board isn't terribly difficult to solder, but it takes a steady hand and a lot of patience.

As a side note, you would never get a warranty or phone support due to the nature of the product. It's a do it yourself kit. You can buy MS already assembled, but the price is almost double.

As a car/technology hobbiest, it's rewarding when you inform others that "I built it".

Correct.

However people need to be informed that the chances of failure are not on their side any time you experience something for the first time.

That pride comes with a higher price tag than most want to pay, more times than not.

Agreed. Which is why I would never build a new MS system and debug it on a new engine. I with there was a service or self-diagnostics kit to actually evaluate the accuracy and consistency of an engine management system. Would have helped resolve the issues I had while building it. Then again, I'm not confident in relying upon 35 year old injectors, I aim to swap in something newer over the next few months.

I found that the stock Bosch sensor suffered from heat soak, after swapping it for a GM open cage sensor that problem disappeared. Now I'm only getting a very small change in AFR's based on air intake temps that seems somewhat random. On the other hand, I see a definite trend that AFR's get richer as the head temperatures increase. The clt (head sensor) isn't used by MS after warmup so I have no idea why it is happening. I don't know if the SDS system has the same problem.

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That's the beauty of SDS, nothing to de-bug. I did price a pre-built MS and found that at best you save about $100 over an SDS, so that's a no-brainer.

I'm trying talk a customer into going SDS on his $10K+ (78X103) engine, I'm not worried if he does, In fact I'd be happier if he did. We'll see when I start putting the top end (upgrading to Jakes top of the line heads) together next week.
My own 78X102mm massive/nickies engine will get SDS, whenever I get it done. Maybe I'll get to it this year.....maybe...

No SDS doesn't have any head temp/heat soak issues. It uses std. bosch head temp sender, same as in the stock L or d-jet. On my wideband A/F values are rock soild were I set them 12.5 to 13:1, my old cammed 2.0 and stock 1.8 had/have head temps just barely over 300F.

I've had no tuning issues, in fact when I sold my 2.0 and stuck in my stock 1.8 it took me only about 10-15min to change my map and tune, as I drove alone by myself. Try doing that with any other system.
BTW I then took the programmer and WB out of the car and drove 2 seasons without ever looking at my WB, no problems.

Just looking at that table gives me a headache...and that's not even the map. Too much information.

BTW I got the upgrade chip kit for my 4F, so now I'll be able to datalog and see my WB values with my fuel value.

Tell that customer that if he decides to use MS on the engine with my heads that if something happens to those parts he shouldn't even waste his time contacting me...

I am really tired of experimental things being used on proven parts and making those parts suffer. Thats why I won't allow my engine kits to be fed with MS.

Hey Dean, what software is that???

Hell, if I set up my maps as 12.5 I wouldn't notice it either, but at 15-16 cruise it starts to stand out as an oddity.

Wrote it myself. I didn't like the way most of the tuning software averaged the VE bins so I wrote one that interpolates similar to how the MS ECU does it. It only supports MSII, v2.6 or 2.8 but if you want a copy send me a pm with your email address

I can do that, but on a T4 you can watch the head temps climb fast as soon as you start lean it out a cruise. Best I've hit is about 14:1 without the temps getting up there.
I can say for sure that's your heat soak issue and if you keep doing it it will waste your engine.

Your system and WB is only part of the package, you need to know your head and oil temps as well. This is not an option.


Jake, it's the 44's or SDS...never said anything different....I don't have time to waste on messing with anything else. Time is money.

What was that recent post about stifling creativity?

My CLT's run around 300 and oil just breaks 170 right now but it's still cool here, last summer was around 360 and 220 but with a different exhaust. Clt measured at the plug, oil in the standard location.

It's an interesting repeatable trend and I would like to see other people's data on it. It hasn't caused a driveability issue but I'm curious as to whether this is a characteristic of aircooled motors or MS. Does SDS not do this?

Hey Dean,

Can you please post your spark tables? I believe i'm running a bit too advanced, my head temps are high. Nice app.

I ran my air temp sensor in a custom intake pipe, no heat soak issues since it's mounted to PVC.

Are you, Mark and Jake, confident enough to break a motor in using SDS only?

I ask because otherwise I would need carbs for three different combos as I get to each one, and that does not make sense.

This is purely for bench level break in (cam break in etc)
Once the motor is in the car, I can tune it from that point forward.

Is there enough canned a/f maps out there to get a decent baseline that wont flood the pistons?

Rich

see my sig and contribute maybe?

Good idea about mounting the sensor in PVC, the stock plenum gets stupid hot. Care to share some pics?

My head temps are lower then normal since I’m running Nickies but I’ll post my table. Good idea about mounting the sensor in PVC, the stock plenum gets stupid hot.

Standard disclaimer that this may destroy your engine, blah, blah, blah


Sorry if I hijacked the thread, I’m a big fan of the MS system.

Click to view attachment

rich

I broke in my fresh rebuild with SDS

I used the lean - rich knob to smooth out while keeping my rpms between 2-2.4K
for the 25 minutes or so went well in my opinion, and I'm working towards novice status

Thanks for posting your table dean. When you get a chance, please send me the table file so i can adjust and import into megatune.

Here is a pic of my intake. I'm using stock 2.0L parts, without the air box. Just ran a 90 deg elbow to PVC and a K&N filter.

More pics in my sig..

(Pics are from early stages in the build, wires aren't cleaned up yet)

FWIW,
Ross from SDS will be teaming up with me to complete a full DVD for the install of SDS and familiarization with aftermarket EFI systems this coming July.

This will be a reference unlike any other.. It'll be the best 40 bucks you can spend!

Absolutely no problem as long as I have a wideband and a CHT. The baseline map from SDS will be right in the ballpark and with a WB if you can see if your A/F is OK and you're good to go.
BUT, there's a "but" on crankfire.

If you're using crankfire it is a bit trickier, as you must set your initial timing with a strobe at around idle. You can't set it static like you would a stock dizzy. On the crankfire you do change the timing through programming, BUT the first time you must use a strobe and "tell" the system (one time only) where the timing is (i.e. 10 degrees BTDC).
If you're fast and get it up to break-in RPM ASAP you should be OK.

Jake most likely (I'm guessing) gets around this using a known crankfire mount set up, or he has a non-crankfire SDS unit and uses a dizzy and set initial timing.
In other words if you use the same known system, disc and sensor/mount and nothing changes when you swap it out, you shouldn't have to set the initial timing.
On a dyno this is no problem, but it would be a real PITA to do on an installed engine.

Unfortunately if you have a crankfire SDS it won't work with a dizzy, as a non-crankfire SDS needs a tach signal. The CF tach signal comes off of the coilpack so there is no work around.

From what I've read here is sounds like SDS is the way to go. I'd love to set my 914 AND my Benz to run SDS (just need to take the leap I guess...and find out how to convert the Benz to FI).

It will only work on the Benz if it's gas, but if it's a crankfire SDS system the Benz will be easier to do than the T4.

so for break in a stock dizzy should work??
Then go to Crank Fire prior to installing the engine??
That sounds more reasonable then having to setup carbs for break in and EFI for motor install.///

Rich

When I hear/read these discussions, I can't help but see a lot of apples-to-oranges comparisons.

1. Build Quality: SDS is professionally built, but MS is available as a pre-built and pre-tested unit as well. I would never recommend a built at home MS system to anyone but a veteran solder monkey. Not that a 'normal' person can't build one, but do you want to be an electronics expert? or do you want a running car? IMHO, you're already taking a big bite by going with any tunable FI. Advantage: TIE as long as you buy a pre-built MS.

2. Wiring Harness: Using the right connectors, the right wire, and the right layout is important to a wiring harness. If you're building a MS harness, it's up to you to do it right. Advantage: SDS

3. Software Complexity: MS has many more options than SDS. This can make it more difficult to tune, but if you zero extra parameters out and get familiar with the settings/software it should be comparable to the SDS. Advantage: SDS for 'beginners' and TIE for 'experts'.

4. Cost: SDS is around $1000 for brain, tuner, and wiring. MS is $400 for a build ECU. MS will require a laptop and wiring harness. Both units will require a TPS, MAP, and other sensors. Advantage: MS

So I don't think that either system has a clear cut advantage. SDS is simple and straightforward. But not everyone needs simple and straight-forward. For some people I would absolutely recommend carbs, because they are easy to set up for a daily driver. For some people I would recommend SDS because it's easier than MS. And some people have the skills and knowledge to work with a MS system. Anyone who insisted on running MS on a motor of mine would be treated to a long conversation about whether it was right for them or not. Jeff Keyzer has one of my motors that he set up with MS and it's running GREAT!

There's not going to be a final decision, where we can blow the whistle and establish a clear winner. The real question here is which system is right for you, your skills/knowledge, your desire to learn/tinker, your tolerance for risks/setbacks, etc. For each person it is different. It's not, "Which one is better?", it's "Which one is suited for me?".

I will blow the whistle and say

"advantage, McMark".

Well said!

Keith

Let's not forget some of the extra features that MS supports, MAF support, X-Tau accel/decel enrichment, short and long term map corrections, adjustable temperature bins for warmup, support for a wide range of idle controllers and very good tuneability for cranking/warmup. It's still not as completely integrated as an OEM ECU on even an entry level car but current plans are to take it to that level or better. It's one hell of a product but does require some smarts to realize it's full potential.

Done

Dean

Those items are only advantages if you need them. If you don't then they are at best something to ignore and at worst a source of confusion. Megasquirt has plenty of capabilities; it's just damn hard. I never could get around X-tau. I understood the theory but, trying to remember what factor or table to change was very confusing.

SDS in terms of features is very much like earlier versions of MS. For example, acceleration enrichment is 2 RPM bins with adjustable pulsewidths. time is hard coded and sensitivity of the TPS is hard coded.

The guys who control MS want a product that will work for everyone and it has become a huge hard to understand system. SDS gives you a simple functional system with no apologies.

Mark is right about apples and oranges and it starts with the philosophy applied to the product and the mames chosen. MS is Mega, SDS is simple

Dave

I believe that most of the things that MS uses as "advantages" are actually disadvantages.

They give more parameters to set up and that gives more parameters to "screw up".

The advantage that no one can appreciate until they have to use it is SDS's tech support that is absolutely unparalleled. Sure with MS you have a few guys that really know it online, but seldom will you get a phone call with the guy that built the system and have him sit on the phone with you for as long as needed to work through ANY issue.

Simplicity and support for my customers are the two main reasons why I exclusively use SDS. I need to know that if a customer has an FI related issue that I can't assist with that they can get accurate, prompt and kind service from the guys who built the unit and SDS has never failed me. I have engines running SDS on 6 Continents for a very good reason. ALL of my personal cars run SDS for that same reason.

I'll soon be firing up a 750 HP TIV engine and it'll be managed by SDS, and I'll leave the Autronic system I have on the shelf.

As a seasoned tuner that can smell a rich/ lean engine 50 yards away I don't trust MS for anything more than a science project. Soome people have had success with it and an equal number have had failures (most of which they don't post about publicly, but email me about when they pick up the pieces) when using the system on an aircooled engine.

Our engines are particular compared to a Chevy or rice burning water pumper.

Yes, I do have a biased opinion as I feel that experimentation isn't for the consumer.

Yep we could argue this till blue in the face, nothing new, audotronic, motec, etc. owners would tell us all that both systems are junk.

For me what is being replaced...a carb and a dizzy. Two very simple systems...then why do you need something over the top complicated?
As an AC VW engine builder (soon to retire, different story) I want something that does the job very well and is simple.
For the most part I don't trust a customer to zip up his own fly without getting his beans caught and I'm going to trust him with a complex system??? Take the blame if (and loss of money, time, etc) if he fuchs up .....not.

I was one of the first persons (if not the first) on this board to go SDS, don't care if your system has more bells.
I'm not looking back.
I'm also done.

Yep, my car is a gasser...a 280C with a bad carb and points ignition. I think a crankfire SDS and finding someone to make me a throttle body setup for the carb replacement would be sweet.

does anyone here know if you can use sds on a 911 engine with itb's, or do have to use the oem plenum and throttle?

another question. the sds site boasts that sds can extract utmost hp from an engine. but, what about routine driving (cold start, idle, cruising at various speeds, and acceleration)?

Been driving one daily for 5 years... Thats everyday, rain, middle of summer, middle of winter.

The engine runs as well as you tune it to run. The cold start, enrichment and overall functionality is all on you and with SDS thats as simple as programmable FI can be.

It took me a year of seasonal changes to get my 912E perfect for cold start and weather changes, since then I haven't touched the programmer except to innstall a new programmable chip that I am developing with SDS that allows manipulation of the target AFR in closed loop mode especially for aircooled applications that need to run richer AFR than stoich.
I have even made the SDS retrofit onto my Pinzgauer aircooled engine. The FI did amazing things for this 90 HP beast...

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I'm surprised that Pinz doesn't have a MassIVe-torque TIV in it.

The TIV isn't heavy duty enough for the Pinz. The Pinz crankshaft weighs nearly 100 pounds and was developed not to break when the combat troops it is carrying are being shot at with artillery...

The Pinz engine uses many VW and Porsche parts and weighs about 800 pounds fully dressed
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Go to a junkyard and find a TB about the same size and SDS has some neat weld in injector bosses.
Or...see if Benz made an FI set-up for that engine and get all the intake parts.
The SDS site has some good "how to's" on building an intake.

See Jake has the idea, I'd like to do the same thing with all my vehicles...custom FI setup and crank-fire ignition could really wake up a tired old car...like a benz inline 6. I know Jake it's not aircooled, but what can you do?

Great I'll find and check out their FAQs etc and see how they suggest to proceed.

I'd like to find a mid 70s Benz vert myself, rip off the CIS and go crazy with it.. Even though it has a radiator..

Jake,
Well mine doesn't have a CIS system to begin with, and I'm sure you are talking about a 450SL or something.

But if you wanted a test mule that was a 280 motor....the Inline 6 revver let me know. I even found that AMG made an engine kit (way back when) that bumped it to a 7000 RPM redline and pushed 210hp. I'd love to find a set of cams with that profile...but I'm sure they'd be worth 2x what my car cost.

Anyway, let me know if you need a guinea pig car for SDS ignition/FI stuff on non air cooled cars.

Yeah a 450 or 500SL is what I'd like to find....