SDS VS MS, I would like to figure this one out?????? Options

[toon1]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a thread to argue bash or to say yours is better than mine.

I would like to learn what the difference is!

I am an MS user and happy with it, if SDS will fuel an engine better, I would like to find out why!

I have been following Daves thread about MS not fueling his engine well enough. There are dyno results proving this, can they be posted with the reasons why MS fails to provide an engine with what it needs?

I have been to SDS's site and cannot find any reason why it would fuel an engine better.

Is it the simplicity of setup?
Is it that SDS has 16x16 fuel tables?
Is SDS's processor faster?


I'm sure if MS was capable of doing the same as SDS, Jake would have figured it out.

I would like to learn differences!

AGAIN, no bashing, just learning.

Keith

[banger]

I think that megasquirt is a great system, but in some ways has too many options. Some people to get in over their head when tuning it, because it has so much flexibility. As for fueling an engine, all systems are pretty simple, and do the same thing. The sds is simple, and pretty much plug and play. I am sure Jake could make megasquirt work fine. But as he has posted before, most megasquirts are in kit form, and you cant control the build quality. He could sell a system, then have someone buy it, load different software on it, blow their engine and blame him for selling it. When companies sell products the ultimately need to support them, with sds, he knows he has support.

[yarin]

To summarize, both systems will exceed your needs. However MS gives you a tons of settings and adjustments figures. Aside from Dave, I've yet to hear of another person with major issues such as dave's. The other variable in MS is that YOU assemble it. What may look good on the stim, may in reality be problematic when actually driving injectors. Ask me how i know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I had a tiny solder or flux bridge that took me 3 months to find. One injector bank would essentially get 50% less current than the other.

All in all, MS is a great system for those that really want to get into the inner workings of an engine management system AND are on a budget. If you want something plug and play and have the $$, go SDS.

On another note, we're installing a Haltech E6K on my brother's 951. He bought the unit for $500. Granted it's 6-7 years old, but it gets the job done.

In terms of MS support, you are limited to posting on a forum. You are paying for support when you buy SDS or any other system. I can't justify switching over, i'm happy as is. It's been a HUGE learning experience for me, if I had to do it again I would. Time is another thing...

[Mark Henry]

I wouldn't call SDS plug 'n play. Might be nothing compared to a MS, but still a lot of work to install it right.

But...they are real simple to tune....no dyno time is really needed to get it working good. I even got it running pretty good without a wideband, wouldn't try it now that I have one, but I did do it. (I do have lots of carb experience though).

[ottox914]

See my sig for SDS install thread. I went that way because it had everything I needed, and nothing I didn't. It was easier to install than I thought, but I'm kind of mental about 2x 3x checking and thinking things thru 200x 300x times before doing it, so the install went well, considering that it was the first time I installed it in the real world, but had done the install a million times in my head. The learning curve on the MS with all the options and configuration seemed to offer alot of chances for an oops. The SDS, while a little challenging to install, really was plug and play. The car started on the first attempt and settled into a smooth idle. Amazing. I could drive it around the block. After all the planning, it took less than 1 day to physically install and drive. And during all the planning, and once or twice since, I called the co. in Canada. Nice guys. They speak the same english I do, are availible during the hours I'm awake and working on the car, and are more than happy to help. Best customer service I have had on anything.

The challenge of building the MS was a potential draw for me- I like a good project, as my sig links will attest to, however the speed that the SDS went in, the ease of programming, well, as much fun as a good project is, driving your car rather than looking for a weak solder joint is WAY more fun.

My .02.

[DNHunt]

I guess I would challenge the dyno results at least with my engine. MS never made it on the dyno.

Here's my take. None of the these knocks against MS are insurmountable but, they are potential pitfalls that aren't a concern with SDS.

I have some assembly issues. 1)MS is homemade and it depends on the skill of the assembler. 2)Solder flux is acidic and if not cleaned well the board will deteriorate.

Installation is realatively difficult because of the wide variety of applications and the number of options. This may be the biggest challenge. It was my wiring harness that let me down at Jake's.

Tuning is way out of control with MS. It can be daunting looking at all the menus. Some of the stuff is a crap shoot cause it's not explained well. Changes are made frequently as a lot of code is experimental.

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

Granted, all this stuff can be overcome but, in my case I have a lot invested in my motor (and Jake and Charles may have more invested in it). After spending a morning troubleshooting no rpm signal to the MS board, I decided to go with something I could depend on so, I switched.

SDS is far simpler, it's easy to tune and the tune is stable with increasing temps.

Dave

[Mark Henry]

One thing I would think about is how many aircraft are flying on MS?
How about SDS? (Take a look at the SDS site)

These guys (inclueding the owners of SDS) don't only depend on it for their engines life...

[Jake Raby]

I use SDS exclusively based on the user interface it provides.

Most of my turn key engine customers are professionals, they are not mechanics and are looking to EFI for the benefits it offers for tuning and less maintenance. They do not want or need to learn software to tune their engine.

SDS provides this and it also provides absolute reliability. I have converted all but one of my vehicles to SDS and have been driving these vehicles every day for the past 5 solid years. Not once has SWDS ever left me stranded.

SDS does have a very high concentration of units used for aircraft use. Not much else has to be said of any component that is "Air worthy" as 90% of the other parts within the engine don't meet that criteria!

The guys at SDS have unparalleled support. I have used Motec, Autronic and most every other system at least once and no one's support even comes close to SDS. I have literally stayed on the phone with an SDS rep for 4 hours in the past when I had a glitch with my dyno having interference from the what we thought was the SDS.

I have nothing good to say about MS, so I will refrain from saying anything at all.

[ws91420]

2)Solder flux is acidic and if not cleaned well the board will deteriorate.
Dave

If I remember correctly you should use rosin core solder for electronic applications. Acid core is for pipes, radiators, and heater cores.

When I did board soldering in my electronics classes years ago we never used any additional flux.

[yarin]

Yes that is correct. Standard temp for hobby/standard temp applications is 60/40 rosin core solder. No additional flux needed. However, a byproduct of the soldering process is always flux. The average person does not have an ultrasonic bath to clean boards with. The board isn't terribly difficult to solder, but it takes a steady hand and a lot of patience.

As a side note, you would never get a warranty or phone support due to the nature of the product. It's a do it yourself kit. You can buy MS already assembled, but the price is almost double.

As a car/technology hobbiest, it's rewarding when you inform others that "I built it".

[Jake Raby]

As a car/technology hobbiest, it's rewarding when you inform others that "I built it".

Correct.

However people need to be informed that the chances of failure are not on their side any time you experience something for the first time.

That pride comes with a higher price tag than most want to pay, more times than not.

[yarin]

As a car/technology hobbiest, it's rewarding when you inform others that "I built it".

Correct.

However people need to be informed that the chances of failure are not on their side any time you experience something for the first time.

That pride comes with a higher price tag than most want to pay, more times than not.

Agreed. Which is why I would never build a new MS system and debug it on a new engine. I with there was a service or self-diagnostics kit to actually evaluate the accuracy and consistency of an engine management system. Would have helped resolve the issues I had while building it. Then again, I'm not confident in relying upon 35 year old injectors, I aim to swap in something newer over the next few months.

[agrump]

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

I found that the stock Bosch sensor suffered from heat soak, after swapping it for a GM open cage sensor that problem disappeared. Now I'm only getting a very small change in AFR's based on air intake temps that seems somewhat random. On the other hand, I see a definite trend that AFR's get richer as the head temperatures increase. The clt (head sensor) isn't used by MS after warmup so I have no idea why it is happening. I don't know if the SDS system has the same problem.

[Mark Henry]

That's the beauty of SDS, nothing to de-bug. I did price a pre-built MS and found that at best you save about $100 over an SDS, so that's a no-brainer.

I'm trying talk a customer into going SDS on his $10K+ (78X103) engine, I'm not worried if he does, In fact I'd be happier if he did. We'll see when I start putting the top end (upgrading to Jakes top of the line heads) together next week.
My own 78X102mm massive/nickies engine will get SDS, whenever I get it done. Maybe I'll get to it this year.....maybe...

[Mark Henry]

If a person gets beyond all that MS will work just fine with 1 exception. The intake air temperature correction is almost impossible to get right because the tables are generated with only 3 entries. For people using MS check your AFR values with changes in IAT: I bet it will vary. There is a bandaid solution in the program which is a tunable 5 point table. So, on top of tuning all the other stuff one gets to tune out problems. The solution might be to use a GM sensor (that is what SDS uses) instead of a Bosch but, I don't know how that table was generated.

I found that the stock Bosch sensor suffered from heat soak, after swapping it for a GM open cage sensor that problem disappeared. Now I'm only getting a very small change in AFR's based on air intake temps that seems somewhat random. On the other hand, I see a definite trend that AFR's get richer as the head temperatures increase. The clt (head sensor) isn't used by MS after warmup so I have no idea why it is happening. I don't know if the SDS system has the same problem.

No SDS doesn't have any head temp/heat soak issues. It uses std. bosch head temp sender, same as in the stock L or d-jet. On my wideband A/F values are rock soild were I set them 12.5 to 13:1, my old cammed 2.0 and stock 1.8 had/have head temps just barely over 300F.

I've had no tuning issues, in fact when I sold my 2.0 and stuck in my stock 1.8 it took me only about 10-15min to change my map and tune, as I drove alone by myself. Try doing that with any other system.
BTW I then took the programmer and WB out of the car and drove 2 seasons without ever looking at my WB, no problems.

Just looking at that table gives me a headache...and that's not even the map. Too much information.

BTW I got the upgrade chip kit for my 4F, so now I'll be able to datalog and see my WB values with my fuel value.

[Jake Raby]

I'm trying talk a customer into going SDS on his $10K+ (78X103) engine, I'm not worried if he does, In fact I'd be happier if he did. We'll see when I start putting the top end (upgrading to Jakes top of the line heads) together next week.

Tell that customer that if he decides to use MS on the engine with my heads that if something happens to those parts he shouldn't even waste his time contacting me...

I am really tired of experimental things being used on proven parts and making those parts suffer. Thats why I won't allow my engine kits to be fed with MS.

[Rick_Eberle]

Hey Dean, what software is that???

[agrump]

No SDS doesn't have any head temp/heat soak issues. It uses std. bosch head temp sender, same as in the stock L or d-jet. On my wideband A/F values are rock soild were I set them 12.5 to 13:1, my old cammed 2.0 and stock 1.8 had/have head temps just barely over 300F.

Hell, if I set up my maps as 12.5 I wouldn't notice it either, but at 15-16 cruise it starts to stand out as an oddity.

[agrump]

Hey Dean, what software is that???

Wrote it myself. I didn't like the way most of the tuning software averaged the VE bins so I wrote one that interpolates similar to how the MS ECU does it. It only supports MSII, v2.6 or 2.8 but if you want a copy send me a pm with your email address

[Mark Henry]

Hell, if I set up my maps as 12.5 I wouldn't notice it either, but at 15-16 cruise it starts to stand out as an oddity.

I can do that, but on a T4 you can watch the head temps climb fast as soon as you start lean it out a cruise. Best I've hit is about 14:1 without the temps getting up there.
I can say for sure that's your heat soak issue and if you keep doing it it will waste your engine.

Your system and WB is only part of the package, you need to know your head and oil temps as well. This is not an option.


Jake, it's the 44's or SDS...never said anything different....I don't have time to waste on messing with anything else. Time is money.