Which would you choose?, Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp Options

[hot_shoe914]

Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I would love to see Jake start putting some RnD into the early 911 motors.

Nope.. Thats no fun at all.

When I chose to move forward with engine development, my engine of choice was the Boxster/996 and 997. They are unknown, have tons of issues and offer the challenges needed to keep me from getting bored.

Here is my cross post from this thread on the "other" site
First off:
The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

Most of my customers never even consider doing a water cooled conversion. They are hardcore aircooled and will spend the extra money initially to keep their car aircooled. Its your car and your choice...

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!

Raby makes good motors, but you can build a cheaper version, that is just as good

I beg to differ. Plenty of people have that mis-conception and end up learning that they were incorrect. This usually occurs about the time that they have spent more money than my kit and still have components colliding with each other inside the engine. About then they realize that they should have bought the kit.

That happens dozens of times per year.

Others can sell you some parts, but they can't parallel my engine design or the R&D that has been expended to create these designs. They also can't parallel our support during assembly and most importantly they can't sell you LE heads and RAT components.

There are many ways to make a TIV bigger and faster, but only one way to make it MassIVe.

[DBCooper]

The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

OK, in other words your big four will cost two or three times the cost of a Subaru conversion, for 100 less horsepower. Is that right?

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

That's just salesman's talk, Jake. What you end up with doesn't look like a Fiero or a Boxter, but a 914. A NARP with a LOT of horsepower. And there are no "irreversible" changes needed to put in a water cooled motor. Simply save the sheet metal pieces cut out for the radiator inlet and outlets, and if you ever want to convert it back to aircooled just weld them back in. Done and dusted. Doing that is no different than very simple rust repair, so it's certainly not "irreversible" and not even that expensive. It would be ten times more difficult and expensive to remove flairs from a car, trailing arm reinforcements, an inner long kit, but nobody ever does that, either.

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!

Again, just salesman's talk. The fact is that no modified car of any make will retain value as well as an unused and untouched original, but if anyone is considering a big motor it's because they want to have FUN with their car, not leave it under glass so others can admire. If you want a concours car you can't make any changes anyway, and that includes the beefed up suspension and brakes that even your 200 hp engine will require, or a Porsche six. But of course you can always remove whatever brakes, suspension, engine, water cooled components, if you want, so it's not true that anything is ever really "ruined", with any of those engines. That's IF you want to remove them and put the 1.8 back in, but no one ever does.

And about respect, there's a reason the term NARP is used around here. In Europe these cars were called VW/Porsches, so with that VW 411 engine you're going to be dissed by some people at Porsche events anyway. But consider the source and thank the jerks for identifying themselves so you don't have to waste any of your time with them. Spend your time with people who understand where you're coming from. And forgive me, but I've seen exactly the opposite of what you say about Subarui engines in VW's. They attract enormous attention at VW shows. And respect, too. Why? It's obvious. 300 horsepower that you can drive everyday on the street, without any special attention, without needing to even adjust valves? You've just hit on what any hard-core VW guy dreams of, a gently brutal giant killer. And that includes the Porsche/VW guys.

If VW and/or Porsche were still making these cars today, had been evolving them this whole time, they'd be putting in water cooled engines very similar to the Subaru engine anyway. And isn't that why we do most of the modifications to our cars anyway, because there's a better way than when the factory did it forty years ago? Isn't that why you're modifying T4 motors?

I agree totally that you should do what you want with your car. Period, end of sentence. But please, no need to exaggerate. You have good products, they can stand on their own. If people are asking questions to make decisions they need facts, not exaggeration and hyperbole.