Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

Jake -- hands down

if i had it to do over i'd definately go with a modern engine. the subi being up there. i may get po-poed but... your not being a purist if you go with anything put the original anyway. look at the benifits of newer technology i.e. efficientcy/drivability. look at the expense of doing 225hp vrs. 325 hp. look at upgrade or even stock parts avalibility.

just my .02
mike

Well, I think it really depends on you really. I would go with a Porsche 6 if I were going to do anything because I like the fact I am keeping it as close to it roots as possible. I guess the type IV is even more so but I preffer the six. I would think you could do a six for less than 10K installed.

Serious question.
How old are you?

I have found that the older I am getting the more I am liking the original design just for the fact that its original...and old.

I like keeping an old engine running..and still getting better mileage than the tuner boys...

But, if you are in an age group that like subies, you have clubs you can have fun with, then go for the suby...

Its really all about what you will do with it once its done..

Rich

Since I have gone to the dark side with my current v8 car I'm a little torn. I really like the idea of Jake's motor & staying air cooled. Buying one allready done was a little easier. I don't think I could cut up a nice stock car . So from that point I would stay air cooled. I have no problem having a water cooled car. I like my v8 & the power. Still I am only in the mid 200's HP wise anyway. I may go subie at some point with my car. It is allready a bastard child so it would be an easy decision for me there. Good luck whichever way you go

from my (limited) experiance with type iv i've found them to be more expensive and definately a challange to build than any other motor i've ever built. personally i'll have just short of $5g in my 2056 and it's still not sorted out. i know others have done them for half but usually they have started with a a good base. talking to a few acuall high dollar big type iv's owners they will tell you they were blown away with all the unexpected thousands in extras they had to spend to complete it. this may not be true for all, just my experiance personally and others i've known.

sounds like a good deal on a six could be done for the same $



what kind of h.p./mileage do you get?
Its really all about what you will do with it once its done..

Well, My opinion Having a 400 hp V8 now, and Having a 300 hp v-6 20 years ago, I can really tell the weight difference and balance in the V-8, too much unser steer. Don't get me wrong I love the HP. I also own a WRX turbo Subie wagon 230 hp, It seems to me the Subie would be the logical choice. You are getting more HP/$ and the weight and center ogf gravity (COG) wil be as close to design as possible. I am a Newbie too, Also a purest at heart but cant afford the $ for the flat 6. I am looking forward to checking all the combinations of engines and power at the WCR08. That would be the best time and place to make the decision.

When I got my car, I wanted to do a Subie. You have to decide what's important. The 325 HP Subie would be loads of fun... more fun than anyone should be having on the street. This is where the problem comes... you put a Subie in there, and the PCA won't let you play. SCCA puts you in E-Mod with the trailer-riding monsters. If you don't plan on racing, then the Subie would probably be a great street engine... but then, if you don't plan on racing, you don't need 325 HP either...

This is why I changed my mind, and am building a Type IV... 2256cc.

I've got nothing against a Subie conversion, but it wasn't the right fit for me once I thought it through.

what subie motor are you doing?

a newer wrx motor is 224 hp, and a WRX sti motor is 300. Are you looking at a modified motor? I ask because a brand new STI motor, which is only 305 hp.

Both wont be cheap (ie fitting a watercooled motor into an aircooled car, plus all the work for the turbo, etc, or getting parts for the Type IV)

I think the suby conversion is cool (i sure do like STI's), but it is def. alot of work to do. The massive type 4 though, with that much power, will probably not have alot of street drivability, but would be alot easier to make things work.


Are you just looking for a fast race car, or a street/track warrior car, or just a fast street car? You mention running against muscle cars, and most MR cars are bad at drag racing, Period. If its more of freeway racing, then the subie will def work.


What exactly do you want from your car, what will you use it for, how much work do you want to do, and how much do you want to spend? Also, for some good power, check out some Porsche 6's as another alternative.

If you go with Jake's engine you get a new motor and great tech support from Jake himself.

With a Suby you get a used engine and your tech support is a bunch of kids on a forum talking about drifting and coffee can exhaust systems.

You could swap out a stock engine for Jake's on a Saturday and be driving to church on Sunday. With the Suby, you won't.

This is so much personal choice.

For my car, I built a 2056 T4, and am having similar experiences as Orange. But it is the first motor that I have built, and all I need to do right now is sync the carbs and get it in the car (I think).

If I were to buy another, I'd put a suby in it. It is a fantastic motor.

Zach

You can get a 220 hp 2.8 from Jake for seven grand? All in? I think you might want to check that again.

Keep it "original"? You're suggesting that I make sacrifices just so I can keep that original VW 411 motor? Hmmm.... OK, I can see your point, but I'm not seeing why I should be looking forward to that. As for going TIV because you're old, I guess that means I'm older, because I've adjusted valves, changed points and cleaned idle jets all my life and I think I've had just about enough of that. And for good order's sake nobody drifts Subaru's. They're four wheel drive cars, so too much traction to drift. Try drag racers and rally cars, more like it. And there's nothing uncool about rally cars.

I've always thought that "you know you can't race a Subaru" was a specious argument. Yes, you most certainly can race a water cooled 914, but since you'll be in a higher and more competitive (cubic dollars) class you're going to have some very formidable competition. So if you go Subaru you probably aren't going to be racing to WIN, but you can certainly go racing for FUN, which is why you're doing the conversion anyway. Isn't it? And with 300 horsepower you'll be waving bye-bye and thanks a lot to those aircooled fours all day after they wave you by. Now THAT'S fun! Can't race PCA? Since they don't much like my NARP anyway that doesn't bother me too much.

Either engine will give you more than enough horsepower. With flares you already won't have an "original" car, so that's not a consideration either. Even a used Subaru will give you twice or three times the miles that you'll get from a big four, with less than half the hassle. And if it breaks after 100,000 miles just get another used $2000 motor, they're all over the place, and bolt it in in an evening. No hassles. With either engine you'll be breaking transmissions more often than that. But that bnings up a consideration not mentioned, that the Subaru might have too much horsepower. No kidding, with that much HP you can spin the tires pretty much at will under sixty mph. So unless you have maturity and some skills it might be prudent to dial it down a bit and go with Jake's motor. Easier to control.

Can you get a 325 hp Subaru that won't require cutting up one of your trunks for the radiator/intercooler?

If yes, I'd go with the Subie.

If no, I'd go with the Type IV. I like the idea of 2 trunks.

Thats a tough one. I personally would prefer to have a twin plugged 6 to anything else. I would love to see Jake start putting some RnD into the early 911 motors.

Come on Jake I want my 400hp twin plug 3.0

But as things stand a aircooled 6 would be my first choice
subi second. Hey can't deny it's power, reliability, cost and weight.
3rd would be one of Jakes motors.

Wow, i remember getting in a big flame war over putting water cooled engines in VWs over on the samba. LOL

Let's just say i wouldn't be for it at all, and while the type 4 or flat six would enhance value, IMHO a water cooled motor would kill the value.

The extra HP would be soaked up by all the radiators and water and pumps and junk....LOL

there's something to be said of the sound the ac boxers make. i 'd never heard my car getting worked while ahead of me. curt was driving my car faster that i felt going in his carrera. i enjoy the 'crudity' of a 914.

Wow! tough decision , which ever one you chose ,make sure you follow thru
make a list of the mods required for each engine swap (detailed,there are lots
of unexpected items) and decide on what kind of time for each swap and how
long you can handle your 914 being up on jackstands .

I myself have a 2.8 IV (84 x 103) and I'm loving it. It's more power then I
needed 180 rwhp (215 fw) at 5500 rpm / 187 rwTorque at 4500 rpm . I've
realized now that I need better brakes . Ah but it's worth it when you give
someone a ride and they can't believe it's VW Type IV

Which ever you choose Good Luck with your endevorer

P.S. future plans down the road are to add a TURBO
for now I'm enjoying as is

Bill

First off I want to thank everybody for their input and opinions. I now realize I left out a lot of info that should have been included. I am at heart a purist but by nature a wild speed deamon never achieving a speed so fast that I didn't want more. I will be restoring my LE Bumblebee to keep a nice pure 914 and as much as I would love to do a tweaked out 3.2 or 3.6 conversion I have not run across an affordable deal to do that as I have with this big bore IV. Yes Jake I do know one of your engines would be around 12 or 13 thousand and someday I hope to own a Raby engine. However on occaision you get lucky and stumble upon a sweet deal that saves you a ton of money and this is what I have a shot at with the IV. my first instinct is to stay pure with the air cooled as it will provide plenty of horse power and will have that sweet unmistakable sound. The freak in me wants so much power it is ridiculous and it would be so nice to actually beat some of the cars to the curves before waxing their asses in the curves. Nothing sucks more than to have a little Mustang GT walk off and leave you on the straight because as we all know, they just won't follow us to our turf in the curves. Therefore a subi would give me the best of both without the maintenance cost of a 3.2 conversion. Maybe some day I will have one of those and actually be able to afford it. I can get into the subie fairly reasonable for the end result and also can the IV right now. I have not made my final decision yet but as of now am still leaning towards the IV even though it will cost me more. You all have made excellent points and each has it's pros and cons so still not sure. I do know that no matter what I decide I will always be a purist at heart and will show that with my LE once it is finished.

Thanks again for all the input. You guys rock!

Donald

people drift the awd subies and evo's.

they modify the awd so its either the rwd, or just pulling most to the rear end. How do I know? Went to a drift competion, and saw alot of sti's and evo's drifting. Though, they are more popular for rally.

I do love the type 4. Not the fastest, or most reliable known motor, but with the 914, its still not hard to get a smile. As for the massive Type IV, you can build your own. Raby makes good motors, but you can build a cheaper version, that is just as good (just takes some more effort than buying a R2R motor)

good luck though on the search

Nope.. Thats no fun at all.

When I chose to move forward with engine development, my engine of choice was the Boxster/996 and 997. They are unknown, have tons of issues and offer the challenges needed to keep me from getting bored.

Here is my cross post from this thread on the "other" site
First off:
The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

Most of my customers never even consider doing a water cooled conversion. They are hardcore aircooled and will spend the extra money initially to keep their car aircooled. Its your car and your choice...

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!


I beg to differ. Plenty of people have that mis-conception and end up learning that they were incorrect. This usually occurs about the time that they have spent more money than my kit and still have components colliding with each other inside the engine. About then they realize that they should have bought the kit.

That happens dozens of times per year.

Others can sell you some parts, but they can't parallel my engine design or the R&D that has been expended to create these designs. They also can't parallel our support during assembly and most importantly they can't sell you LE heads and RAT components.

There are many ways to make a TIV bigger and faster, but only one way to make it MassIVe.

THAT is the way to say it....well said .

Rich

As an older guy, I really prefer a 914 that is as unmolested as possible, but the choice is a fun one to make.

My only thought is that a 200+ HP Raby engine is going to provide you with a 914 as it was designed. It should be scary quick and fast, without compromising the integrity of the tub (body).

A Subi conversion will not only involve cutting the body, but at 300+ HP, I imaginge you will have to reinforce the tub in a number of places. IMHO, the 914 was never designed to take the stresses of a 300+hp powerplant, and I would imaging the stresses would torque the body pretty hard.

So if you decide to convert to a Subi, you should probably plan to make upgrades in the body reinforcement, suspension, braking and obviously, cooling.

Seems like a lot more work (and money) you may not have included in your budget.

Eric Read

OK, in other words your big four will cost two or three times the cost of a Subaru conversion, for 100 less horsepower. Is that right?



That's just salesman's talk, Jake. What you end up with doesn't look like a Fiero or a Boxter, but a 914. A NARP with a LOT of horsepower. And there are no "irreversible" changes needed to put in a water cooled motor. Simply save the sheet metal pieces cut out for the radiator inlet and outlets, and if you ever want to convert it back to aircooled just weld them back in. Done and dusted. Doing that is no different than very simple rust repair, so it's certainly not "irreversible" and not even that expensive. It would be ten times more difficult and expensive to remove flairs from a car, trailing arm reinforcements, an inner long kit, but nobody ever does that, either.



Again, just salesman's talk. The fact is that no modified car of any make will retain value as well as an unused and untouched original, but if anyone is considering a big motor it's because they want to have FUN with their car, not leave it under glass so others can admire. If you want a concours car you can't make any changes anyway, and that includes the beefed up suspension and brakes that even your 200 hp engine will require, or a Porsche six. But of course you can always remove whatever brakes, suspension, engine, water cooled components, if you want, so it's not true that anything is ever really "ruined", with any of those engines. That's IF you want to remove them and put the 1.8 back in, but no one ever does.

And about respect, there's a reason the term NARP is used around here. In Europe these cars were called VW/Porsches, so with that VW 411 engine you're going to be dissed by some people at Porsche events anyway. But consider the source and thank the jerks for identifying themselves so you don't have to waste any of your time with them. Spend your time with people who understand where you're coming from. And forgive me, but I've seen exactly the opposite of what you say about Subarui engines in VW's. They attract enormous attention at VW shows. And respect, too. Why? It's obvious. 300 horsepower that you can drive everyday on the street, without any special attention, without needing to even adjust valves? You've just hit on what any hard-core VW guy dreams of, a gently brutal giant killer. And that includes the Porsche/VW guys.

If VW and/or Porsche were still making these cars today, had been evolving them this whole time, they'd be putting in water cooled engines very similar to the Subaru engine anyway. And isn't that why we do most of the modifications to our cars anyway, because there's a better way than when the factory did it forty years ago? Isn't that why you're modifying T4 motors?

I agree totally that you should do what you want with your car. Period, end of sentence. But please, no need to exaggerate. You have good products, they can stand on their own. If people are asking questions to make decisions they need facts, not exaggeration and hyperbole.

The only water in a 914 should be in the window washer bottle.
Jake's motor will fit right in with no mods at all. The suby will force you to cut up your car and it will take a lot time and money to do it.

Jake, I was refering to Steve (i think his profile name is sww914) and he built his massive type IV, and thats a fast car. My buddy hershel also has a massive type IV, and I think he also built his, and that's a fast car too.

They knew what they were doing to build it, and knew how to get the results they wanted. IM not bagging on your business or anything (I don't know how to build monster type IV, so maybe in a few years I might call you for a new R2R motor), but you are not the only option when it comes to type IV

neither ...
Andy

those may be fast cars that have well built engines, but unless it has a RAT serial number is can't be MassIVe... Lots of knockoffs have spawned as the evolution of my program has gone to the more advanced levels.

I was is this posistion also. Not for the reason of massive power but for the reason of an engine rebuild/swap.

I decided to go with the TIV. NOT for purist reasons. I just wanted to see if I could build a nice running TIV.

The challenges I faced where frustrating and rewarding. The expenses I encoured where more than I thought.

I also wanted a nice DD that was good on fuel. That being said, and hinde site being 20/20, I think I should have gone with the subi.

The subi offers a little more for what I wanted out of MY car.

There are things that can be done with the Subi. that you just cannot do with the TIV. The subi . offeres about 110HP in the 1.8 with no mods.

There are places I want to take the car that with a subie I would not have to think about it, with the TIV I would think twice.

I am alway's worried about head temps with the TIV and sometimes alter my route to avoid potential areas that might cause issues. No matter how well the engine is tuned, there is always that long hill in a head wind that you will encounter that will create heat issues there is just no way around it


In the end, It's all about what YOU want and what YOU are happy with.

P.S.- if the 914 was produced today( ummm boxster) it WOULD be water cooled.

IMHO, WC engines are just better and more reliable ( no offense to anyone)

Does that apply only engines that you assemble, or also to the kits you sell for people to assemble themselves? I seem to recall one of your posts stating that a customer could save a lot of money by assembling one of your kits rather than paying for your time to assemble the engine.

How can that be true? 911s are rather reliable. Porsche didn't go to water cooled because they felt it would be more reliable And to say that if a 914 was made today it would be water cooled is like saying if they made the 911 today it would be water cooled

I never said AC engines where NOT reliable, they are to a point. I said "IMHO WC engines are MORE relaible". I do know for a fact, ( as I stated above) there are times I will avoid taking my 914 certain places due to the fact I am usure about how the engine may handle it. Call me over cautious but I would sure hate to be stranded by an engine that dropped a valve seat because it couldn't climb a hill on hot day or any other day for that matter.

Is that a tuning thing? maybe!

Is that a maintenence prob.? maybe!

could it happen to a perfectly good running TIV? maybe!

It could also happen to a WC engine BUT there is more room for error and a WC engine gives the ability to have that margine of error.

Hence makes them MORE reliable, MORE forgiving and MORE user freindly.

I HAVE and AC engine. I'm fairly happy with it but I have to work around it's parameters, sometimes I like it sometimes I don't. But for now that's what I have until it blows up and at that point it's decision time again. A Subi may be the way I go. It's all a matter of opinion It's all good!

You will have to excuse my ignorance.

Why did Porsche start putting WC engines in their cars?

more horse power. They felt they could create more efficient HP going water cooled.

Most of your reasoning behind your engine not being as trust worthy may be from it not being a fresh engine. If it is it and set up correctly it can withstand very high heat. Remember, 914s and 911s regularly beat water cooled cars in the 24 hour races. Now if you are pushing your engine to a higher compression or something like that it may be more unstable. However, a stock 914 or 911 engine is a very reliable engine and just as much as any water cooled engine.

I think though that they are more temperature sensitive. My car runs pretty hot, especially during summer. The point is that it runs hotter when its being cooled by 110 degree weather, vs my water cooled RSX that the temp stays about the same anytime of the year

but i agree, they will run in either condition. Now, stopping the car, and getting vapor lock (havnt relocated fuel pump) is where the long roadtrips start to show some problems, but thats now an ac/wc problem

Doens't efficiancy breed reliability?

My engine IS fresh! it has about 3k on it. I am running 1.7 with MS, crank trigger, 8.2:1 comp. and a 9550 cam. I have ifinite adjustability over timing and AFR's. With all that, there are still heat related issues. Not all the time. Most the time, they are fine. Most of my driving is on flat terrain. BUT, in those instances where I have to cross a Mtn. pass the temps. climb to an uncomfortable level(390*, 13.5:1 afr, 25* timing). There are no ways of getting around it, it's just what they do. In my WC car, it's not that way.

The fact that, seemingly MOST of the topics related to these engines is try to COOL them say's it all. Everybody here with a AC engines go through great lengths to make sure they stay cool. I would venture to say it's the #1 killer of the ac engine.

Keith

My Turn Key engine program and my engine kit program share none of the same characteristics.. The engines built in the shop as "Turn Key" units are not based from our kit.

The kit engines are 2-3 years behind the development of their turn key counterparts as we use the experiences gathered from the design, testing and effectiveness of the base engines used in turn key customers cars to create the engine kits... Thats why it takes 2-3 years to chose the easiest to assemble, most effective base engines for the foundation of that "kit" engine.

Today in my Turn Key engine shop we are taking orders for twin plug TIV engines, roller cam and lifter equipped engines and even engines with forced induction that also use both the roller cam and twin plug technology all rolled into one package. I refer to these engines as "MassIVe Generation II".

The engine kit program was updated in January 2008 and will not change till mid year, 2010. These kits are derived from the turn key engines of the 2005-2007 era and use that technology and those engine combinations. This makes it simple to create an engine that we can forecast tuning for as well as know what it will attain for power, MPG and longevity.

These kits are easy to assemble engines that we can assist you in creating step by step. This can be done with only a 119 piece tool set by someone with ZERO previous experience! We actually prefer that kit assemblers have no prior experience and bad habits! Those are always the best builds.

The engine kit program is so far advanced that we now have assembly tool kits that can be purchased cheaply and used for engine assembly... Thats how well the program is refined.

If you base an engine off of one of my kits, it will be MassIVe, but it will always be a kit that you assembled yourself. The only way to make a TIV MassIVe is with one of my kits, or a complete engine package... Anything else is just a "Big 4".

And noise/emissions, IIRC...


As far as the reliability issues, if there is one place that I want a reliable engine, it is at 15,000 feet. The VAST majority of aero engines are aircooled.

Of course, they do have a bit of a cooling advantage over automotive engines... but the point remains.

Aviation engines operate in cooler ambient temps...

As for watercooling... The switch was most impacted by emission control restrictions.. Just like at the exhaust system on a 993 engine to see the challenges the environmental restrictions placed on the last aircooled Porsche engines.

even today with all the Boxster and 996 developments we are doing, I still don't appreciate any watercooled Porsche... Developing watercooled Porsche engines has been a business endeavor for us only. (So I can reinvest more into aircooled development!)

Never had a problem with overheating.

Didn't it have something to do with cooling issues for 4 valve heads? Porsche discovered on the 935 and 936 that they had to use water cooling for the heads because they were exceeding the thermal limits of the engine. (Bruce Anderson, Porsche 911 Performance Handbook)

And the heads were hotter because of the restrictions imposed by emissions equipment...

" it's hell being right all the time,"

Seems to me if you plan on doing any racing, a Raby motor is the absolute best choice because of classes and such. Also the ease of installation would be a big factor to consider.

If you want better daily driver driveability, the Subie motor is a real good choice (IMNSHO the Subie motor makes a V8 conversion obsolete unless you're trying to build something like a 500hp+ supercar out of a 914).

If you want "authenticity" and have the money, a 911 motor is still the best way to go.

Only thing not to like about the Raby is the price (but I suspect you get what you pay for).

I think you will find that a 3.2 or 3.6 liter six can be done cost effectively and will run reliably with time proven consistency and output will be superior to any 2.8 T4 on crack.

I'm not a fan of big T4's regardless of the sales pitches. Funny thing is many of the T4 horor stories rarely make it to any of the boards, but hang around in 914 community long enough you hear/see all the issues and the money that gets thrown at making these motors work correctly. Then just as they are working poof! Something lets go.

If not a six then subie would be my second choice.

Best choice of all for a 914-4 owner that plans street and some AX is to just go with a nice 2056 and pass on the drag racing. Why not keep thae car as close to stock as possible to retain reliability that was engineered by true engineers rather than barn yard bandits.

Blasphemy!!!

I'd bet that if YOU knew ANYTHING about them you'd certainly post them right here. Thats because you'll do anything possible to downplay what I create and the TIV- period. Any simple mistake I make is ammunition for a person such as yourself to use against me and the engines I create.

So if it really existed, why didn't YOU post it?

(And you wonder why I kicked your ass off my boards.)




So, you call me a "Barnyard Bandit"...

Have you ever designed an engine that made 52 HP per cylinder N/A and then standardized that assembly into a package that is able to be assembled by someone that has literally NEVER worked on an engine before??? Until you do you haven't been as effective as this "Barnyard Bandit".

Thats OK, Excellence Magazine will be in my "Barnyard" next week covering another of the developments that have sprouted from the seeds we started sowing 3 years ago. You'll rread about it in a couple of months in a few thousand words of detail. I wonder if Grant has ever had his work featured in such an article?

Here is a good pic to piss Grant off a little more.. This is a customer who I flew 2300 miles to see and repair his oil leak on his RAT Turn Key engine. He didn't have to ask me to do it. we pulled the engine in his garage and repaired the leak..

Honestly I don't understand the Type IV hate.

If you want to compete against 4cyl 914s and be competitive, the best thing you can do is stuff a big bore Type IV in the car.

Upgrading to a 6, a Subie or a V8 puts you in the same class as dedicated track cars who are going to eat your lunch unless you dump a TON of cash into the car with the new motor, and reduce the drivability of the car on the street (if not make it an outright track only car).

As for Raby's Type IVs, the only people I hear complaining about them are people that haven't bought them.

Imagine that..

And of course, Grant will always complain because he is Grant and is the ultimate "Jake Hater"..

But I love Grant.. Its guys like him that remind me how successful and effective myself and my program have been. If it is worth all that energy to hate me, I must really be getting on his nerves.

You have not arrived until you get your own personal haters.....

I've been tryin', but no hate for me yet...