Which would you choose?, Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp Options

[hot_shoe914]

Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[auerbach]

Jake -- hands down

[orange914]

if i had it to do over i'd definately go with a modern engine. the subi being up there. i may get po-poed but... your not being a purist if you go with anything put the original anyway. look at the benifits of newer technology i.e. efficientcy/drivability. look at the expense of doing 225hp vrs. 325 hp. look at upgrade or even stock parts avalibility.

just my .02
mike

[PeeGreen 914]

Well, I think it really depends on you really. I would go with a Porsche 6 if I were going to do anything because I like the fact I am keeping it as close to it roots as possible. I guess the type IV is even more so but I preffer the six. I would think you could do a six for less than 10K installed.

[r_towle]

Serious question.
How old are you?

I have found that the older I am getting the more I am liking the original design just for the fact that its original...and old.

I like keeping an old engine running..and still getting better mileage than the tuner boys...

But, if you are in an age group that like subies, you have clubs you can have fun with, then go for the suby...

Its really all about what you will do with it once its done..

Rich

[JRust]

Since I have gone to the dark side with my current v8 car I'm a little torn. I really like the idea of Jake's motor & staying air cooled. Buying one allready done was a little easier. I don't think I could cut up a nice stock car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) . So from that point I would stay air cooled. I have no problem having a water cooled car. I like my v8 & the power. Still I am only in the mid 200's HP wise anyway. I may go subie at some point with my car. It is allready a bastard child so it would be an easy decision for me there. Good luck whichever way you go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[orange914]

I would think you could do a six for less than 10K installed.

from my (limited) experiance with type iv i've found them to be more expensive and definately a challange to build than any other motor i've ever built. personally i'll have just short of $5g in my 2056 and it's still not sorted out. i know others have done them for half but usually they have started with a a good base. talking to a few acuall high dollar big type iv's owners they will tell you they were blown away with all the unexpected thousands in extras they had to spend to complete it. this may not be true for all, just my experiance personally and others i've known.

sounds like a good deal on a six could be done for the same $

Serious question.
How old are you?

I like keeping an old engine running..and still getting better mileage than the tuner boys...

Its really all about what you will do with it once its done..

Rich

what kind of h.p./mileage do you get?
Its really all about what you will do with it once its done.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[TC 914-8]

Well, My opinion Having a 400 hp V8 now, and Having a 300 hp v-6 20 years ago, I can really tell the weight difference and balance in the V-8, too much unser steer. Don't get me wrong I love the HP. I also own a WRX turbo Subie wagon 230 hp, It seems to me the Subie would be the logical choice. You are getting more HP/$ and the weight and center ogf gravity (COG) wil be as close to design as possible. I am a Newbie too, Also a purest at heart but cant afford the $ for the flat 6. I am looking forward to checking all the combinations of engines and power at the WCR08. That would be the best time and place to make the decision.

[Todd Enlund]

When I got my car, I wanted to do a Subie. You have to decide what's important. The 325 HP Subie would be loads of fun... more fun than anyone should be having on the street. This is where the problem comes... you put a Subie in there, and the PCA won't let you play. SCCA puts you in E-Mod with the trailer-riding monsters. If you don't plan on racing, then the Subie would probably be a great street engine... but then, if you don't plan on racing, you don't need 325 HP either...

This is why I changed my mind, and am building a Type IV... 2256cc.

I've got nothing against a Subie conversion, but it wasn't the right fit for me once I thought it through.

[dw914er]

what subie motor are you doing?

a newer wrx motor is 224 hp, and a WRX sti motor is 300. Are you looking at a modified motor? I ask because a brand new STI motor, which is only 305 hp.

Both wont be cheap (ie fitting a watercooled motor into an aircooled car, plus all the work for the turbo, etc, or getting parts for the Type IV)

I think the suby conversion is cool (i sure do like STI's), but it is def. alot of work to do. The massive type 4 though, with that much power, will probably not have alot of street drivability, but would be alot easier to make things work.


Are you just looking for a fast race car, or a street/track warrior car, or just a fast street car? You mention running against muscle cars, and most MR cars are bad at drag racing, Period. If its more of freeway racing, then the subie will def work.


What exactly do you want from your car, what will you use it for, how much work do you want to do, and how much do you want to spend? Also, for some good power, check out some Porsche 6's as another alternative.

[URY914]

If you go with Jake's engine you get a new motor and great tech support from Jake himself.

With a Suby you get a used engine and your tech support is a bunch of kids on a forum talking about drifting and coffee can exhaust systems.

You could swap out a stock engine for Jake's on a Saturday and be driving to church on Sunday. With the Suby, you won't.

[VaccaRabite]

This is so much personal choice.

For my car, I built a 2056 T4, and am having similar experiences as Orange. But it is the first motor that I have built, and all I need to do right now is sync the carbs and get it in the car (I think).

If I were to buy another, I'd put a suby in it. It is a fantastic motor.

Zach

[DBCooper]

You can get a 220 hp 2.8 from Jake for seven grand? All in? I think you might want to check that again.

Keep it "original"? You're suggesting that I make sacrifices just so I can keep that original VW 411 motor? Hmmm.... OK, I can see your point, but I'm not seeing why I should be looking forward to that. As for going TIV because you're old, I guess that means I'm older, because I've adjusted valves, changed points and cleaned idle jets all my life and I think I've had just about enough of that. And for good order's sake nobody drifts Subaru's. They're four wheel drive cars, so too much traction to drift. Try drag racers and rally cars, more like it. And there's nothing uncool about rally cars.

I've always thought that "you know you can't race a Subaru" was a specious argument. Yes, you most certainly can race a water cooled 914, but since you'll be in a higher and more competitive (cubic dollars) class you're going to have some very formidable competition. So if you go Subaru you probably aren't going to be racing to WIN, but you can certainly go racing for FUN, which is why you're doing the conversion anyway. Isn't it? And with 300 horsepower you'll be waving bye-bye and thanks a lot to those aircooled fours all day after they wave you by. Now THAT'S fun! Can't race PCA? Since they don't much like my NARP anyway that doesn't bother me too much.

Either engine will give you more than enough horsepower. With flares you already won't have an "original" car, so that's not a consideration either. Even a used Subaru will give you twice or three times the miles that you'll get from a big four, with less than half the hassle. And if it breaks after 100,000 miles just get another used $2000 motor, they're all over the place, and bolt it in in an evening. No hassles. With either engine you'll be breaking transmissions more often than that. But that bnings up a consideration not mentioned, that the Subaru might have too much horsepower. No kidding, with that much HP you can spin the tires pretty much at will under sixty mph. So unless you have maturity and some skills it might be prudent to dial it down a bit and go with Jake's motor. Easier to control.

[zymurgist]

Can you get a 325 hp Subaru that won't require cutting up one of your trunks for the radiator/intercooler?

If yes, I'd go with the Subie.

If no, I'd go with the Type IV. I like the idea of 2 trunks.

[turboman808]

Thats a tough one. I personally would prefer to have a twin plugged 6 to anything else. I would love to see Jake start putting some RnD into the early 911 motors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

Come on Jake I want my 400hp twin plug 3.0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But as things stand a aircooled 6 would be my first choice
subi second. Hey can't deny it's power, reliability, cost and weight.
3rd would be one of Jakes motors.

[james2]

Wow, i remember getting in a big flame war over putting water cooled engines in VWs over on the samba. LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Let's just say i wouldn't be for it at all, and while the type 4 or flat six would enhance value, IMHO a water cooled motor would kill the value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

The extra HP would be soaked up by all the radiators and water and pumps and junk....LOL

[rhodyguy]

there's something to be said of the sound the ac boxers make. i 'd never heard my car getting worked while ahead of me. curt was driving my car faster that i felt going in his carrera. i enjoy the 'crudity' of a 914.

[Bills914-4]

Wow! tough decision , which ever one you chose ,make sure you follow thru
make a list of the mods required for each engine swap (detailed,there are lots
of unexpected items) and decide on what kind of time for each swap and how
long you can handle your 914 being up on jackstands .

I myself have a 2.8 IV (84 x 103) and I'm loving it. It's more power then I
needed 180 rwhp (215 fw) at 5500 rpm / 187 rwTorque at 4500 rpm . I've
realized now that I need better brakes . Ah but it's worth it when you give
someone a ride and they can't believe it's VW Type IV (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Which ever you choose Good Luck with your endevorer

P.S. future plans down the road are to add a TURBO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
for now I'm enjoying as is

Bill

[hot_shoe914]

First off I want to thank everybody for their input and opinions. I now realize I left out a lot of info that should have been included. I am at heart a purist but by nature a wild speed deamon never achieving a speed so fast that I didn't want more. I will be restoring my LE Bumblebee to keep a nice pure 914 and as much as I would love to do a tweaked out 3.2 or 3.6 conversion I have not run across an affordable deal to do that as I have with this big bore IV. Yes Jake I do know one of your engines would be around 12 or 13 thousand and someday I hope to own a Raby engine. However on occaision you get lucky and stumble upon a sweet deal that saves you a ton of money and this is what I have a shot at with the IV. my first instinct is to stay pure with the air cooled as it will provide plenty of horse power and will have that sweet unmistakable sound. The freak in me wants so much power it is ridiculous and it would be so nice to actually beat some of the cars to the curves before waxing their asses in the curves. Nothing sucks more than to have a little Mustang GT walk off and leave you on the straight because as we all know, they just won't follow us to our turf in the curves. Therefore a subi would give me the best of both without the maintenance cost of a 3.2 conversion. Maybe some day I will have one of those and actually be able to afford it. I can get into the subie fairly reasonable for the end result and also can the IV right now. I have not made my final decision yet but as of now am still leaning towards the IV even though it will cost me more. You all have made excellent points and each has it's pros and cons so still not sure. I do know that no matter what I decide I will always be a purist at heart and will show that with my LE once it is finished.

Thanks again for all the input. You guys rock!

Donald

[dw914er]

You can get a 220 hp 2.8 from Jake for seven grand? All in? I think you might want to check that again.

Keep it "original"? You're suggesting that I make sacrifices just so I can keep that original VW 411 motor? Hmmm.... OK, I can see your point, but I'm not seeing why I should be looking forward to that. As for going TIV because you're old, I guess that means I'm older, because I've adjusted valves, changed points and cleaned idle jets all my life and I think I've had just about enough of that. And for good order's sake nobody drifts Subaru's. They're four wheel drive cars, so too much traction to drift. Try drag racers and rally cars, more like it. And there's nothing uncool about rally cars.

I've always thought that "you know you can't race a Subaru" was a specious argument. Yes, you most certainly can race a water cooled 914, but since you'll be in a higher and more competitive (cubic dollars) class you're going to have some very formidable competition. So if you go Subaru you probably aren't going to be racing to WIN, but you can certainly go racing for FUN, which is why you're doing the conversion anyway. Isn't it? And with 300 horsepower you'll be waving bye-bye and thanks a lot to those aircooled fours all day after they wave you by. Now THAT'S fun! Can't race PCA? Since they don't much like my NARP anyway that doesn't bother me too much.

Either engine will give you more than enough horsepower. With flares you already won't have an "original" car, so that's not a consideration either. Even a used Subaru will give you twice or three times the miles that you'll get from a big four, with less than half the hassle. And if it breaks after 100,000 miles just get another used $2000 motor, they're all over the place, and bolt it in in an evening. No hassles. With either engine you'll be breaking transmissions more often than that. But that bnings up a consideration not mentioned, that the Subaru might have too much horsepower. No kidding, with that much HP you can spin the tires pretty much at will under sixty mph. So unless you have maturity and some skills it might be prudent to dial it down a bit and go with Jake's motor. Easier to control.

people drift the awd subies and evo's.

they modify the awd so its either the rwd, or just pulling most to the rear end. How do I know? Went to a drift competion, and saw alot of sti's and evo's drifting. Though, they are more popular for rally.

I do love the type 4. Not the fastest, or most reliable known motor, but with the 914, its still not hard to get a smile. As for the massive Type IV, you can build your own. Raby makes good motors, but you can build a cheaper version, that is just as good (just takes some more effort than buying a R2R motor)

good luck though on the search